The Jaxson

Community => Politics => Topic started by: BridgeTroll on December 01, 2017, 08:15:03 AM

Title: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on December 01, 2017, 08:15:03 AM
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-11-28/jea-resolves-explore-privatization

JEA resolves to explore privatization

Posted November 28, 2017 06:56 pm | Updated November 28, 2017 07:23 pm
By David Bauerlein

Quote
JEA will determine what the market value is for the city-owned utility and give that information to city leaders for them to consider privatizing the electric and water utility...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Gunnar on December 01, 2017, 08:41:23 AM
Privatizing public utilities in my opinion rarely if ever leads to an improvement for the former owner (being the citizens and customers)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on December 04, 2017, 11:15:35 AM
No, they should not privatize jea. It will not benefit my great city or its citizens long term to sell off one of its biggest assets.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on January 15, 2018, 01:00:36 AM
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2018-01-14/sale-jea-would-not-require-voter-referendum

So here we go. Who wants to protest if the city decides to sell jea to a giant corporation?
Mind you, this article only lays out that the city can do this without letting the citizens vote on it first. Nothing much has been done as of yet.  It still seems like a bad idea to me to privatize jea though
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 15, 2018, 01:45:57 AM
What? How does this in any way seem like a good idea? Why would we do this?

How about, instead of privatizing JEA, we get municipal fiber like EPB in Chattanooga?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on January 15, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
JEA has control of Water and Sewer as well. That is very atypical for an Electric utility. I would assume those would revert back tot he city if JEA were sold?

I fear the administration might see the initial big payoff as a way to pay for a 'Sim City' DT without considering the other long-term impacts.   
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Gunnar on January 15, 2018, 09:48:01 AM
Considering long term impacts implies that those who decide care about the long term (i.e. beyond their own term).
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 12, 2018, 05:47:31 PM
Well, it looks like there is going to be a battle on this issue. Special meeting on Wednesday!

http://jacksonville.com/news/20180212/council-president-rejects-calling-wednesday-meeting-on-jea-sale-so-mayor-calls-one-himself
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: KenFSU on February 12, 2018, 09:31:38 PM
The only way this makes is if Jacksonville's utility infrastructure is in desperate, urgent need of upgrades that we can't possibly afford. To the best of my knowledge, that isn't the case. If not, it feels like a politically-motivated cash grab that is going to put a hurting on Jacksonville's middle class, and absolutely devastate Jacksonville's lower class. Private utilities can essentially charge whatever they want in order to recoup their investments, and if some corporation comes in and pays a billion, if not billions, for JEA as rumors suggest the valuations will land, you better believe they're going to make it up when they set rates. You could take that money and restore every building downtown, prop up developments at the Shipyards, District, and Stadium District, and sign Kirk Cousins for 10 years, and it would still be a clear net loss for the average Jacksonville citizen.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 06:32:43 AM
I want to know where this is coming from... Apparently this is all coming from a "valuation report" from JEA.  Is this report normal?  Annual?  What prompted this?  Why now?

I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

Someone show me the benefit of the sale... I have not heard that argument yet...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Josh on February 13, 2018, 08:47:32 AM
I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

This whole process is Curry's doing. He wants a windfall for the city to fund his next political "win."
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: pierre on February 13, 2018, 08:49:44 AM
This would be a horrible idea for this city
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 08:55:38 AM
I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

This whole process is Curry's doing. He wants a windfall for the city to fund his next political "win."

Clearly that is the opinion of many... yet I have yet to see any real evidence of it...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Gunnar on February 13, 2018, 08:58:42 AM
This would be a horrible idea for this city

Sounds like something that will be done then...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 09:07:08 AM
A few quotes...  https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/council-members-ask-why-sell-the-jea-who-would-benefit

Quote
Councilman Garrett Dennis, who called the meeting, doesn't know who is behind the idea to sell the JEA.

"We don’t know who it’s being driven (by). But now ... it’s our obligation to vet it and to see what is best for the citizens," Dennis said.

Quote
Mayor Lenny Curry's chief of staff, Brian Hughes, issued a statement Tuesday afternoon about the possibility of a sale:

We will work with City Council as JEA approaches the conclusion of research initiated by its senior leadership at the direction of the JEA Board. Commenting or speculating about future decisions before the conclusion of that work is premature. Whatever future decisions that are related to JEA, Mayor Curry is always guided by two steadfast principles: 1. Any future action MUST be in the best interest of JEA ratepayers and the taxpayers of our city, and 2. Such action MUST demonstrate a commitment to the hard work and success of every man and woman working every day at JEA to serve our community.”
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 09:12:29 AM
Here is the actual draft report...

http://www.jacksonville.com/assets/pdf/LK153528.PDF
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Lostwave on February 13, 2018, 09:21:53 AM
The worst thing about doing this, is you can never un do it.  JEA is owned by the taxpayers and should remain so.  There is no reason that a utility should be privatized.  Then whoever owns the private company makes a profit coming out of our pockets.  It needs to be a non-profit business to serve the community.

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Josh on February 13, 2018, 09:32:04 AM
I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

This whole process is Curry's doing. He wants a windfall for the city to fund his next political "win."

Clearly that is the opinion of many... yet I have yet to see any real evidence of it...

I doubt you'll ever get "evidence," but...

Quote
Tom Petway — one of Curry’s closest financial backers — put the entire sale process in motion last year when he suggested in his final meeting as a JEA board member that the utility explore the option, a move Curry quickly supported publicly.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180212/council-president-rejects-calling-wednesday-meeting-on-jea-sale-so-mayor-calls-one-himself
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: FlaBoy on February 13, 2018, 10:13:32 AM
Which municipalities still own their utility company? I know Gainesville does. Tampa and Orlando (or their counties) do not. Neither does Pinellas. South Florida has FPL.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 10:28:03 AM
I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

This whole process is Curry's doing. He wants a windfall for the city to fund his next political "win."

Clearly that is the opinion of many... yet I have yet to see any real evidence of it...

I doubt you'll ever get "evidence," but...

Quote
Tom Petway — one of Curry’s closest financial backers — put the entire sale process in motion last year when he suggested in his final meeting as a JEA board member that the utility explore the option, a move Curry quickly supported publicly.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180212/council-president-rejects-calling-wednesday-meeting-on-jea-sale-so-mayor-calls-one-himself


Sooo because Petway suggested they explore the options it is a bad thing?  here is the opening of the draft document...

Quote
Introduction
On November 28, 2017, in his final meeting as a Director of the JEA Board, Mr. Thomas Petway posed the
following questions…

“Would the customers of JEA and the people of Jacksonville be better served in the private marketplace?”
“Should JEA and the city of Jacksonville consider the financial benefits that would come from the
privatization of JEA?”

This topic has been raised and studied in the past. The conclusions of prior studies were that the City and
the ratepayers would be better served by having JEA remain in place as a municipally-owned utility. But
as Mr. Petway accurately stated at the November meeting, the utility market is vastly different than when
JEA was formed in 1967. Further, the utility market is quite different than it was just five years ago when
this topic was last studied.

The outlook for the future of the utility industry, and specifically for the electric utility industry, is as
uncertain as it has ever been. Continued advances in technology will impact both energy demand and
energy supply. Technology has led to tremendous leaps forward in energy efficiency, resulting in reduced
energy demand; while potential growth in electric vehicle adoption could replace that demand in the
upcoming decade. On the supply side, we have seen coal go out of favor due to environmental concerns,
and nuclear due to cost concerns; while natural gas-fired and renewable generation costs have declined
dramatically. The prospects for continued change can be argued to make the utility industry more volatile
and riskier than it has been in the past.

The rapidly changing nature of the utility industry supports the need for the City and JEA to reevaluate
questions that have been asked and answered in the past. As a result of Mr. Petway’s questions and
suggestions, JEA’s new Board Chair Mr. Alan Howard made the following request of JEA’s CEO, Mr. Paul
McElroy…“…take up that challenge, evaluate our prospective position in the marketplace, and report back
on what the private market value of JEA may be so the citizens of Jacksonville and the mayor and other
constituencies — City Council — can evaluate that opportunity.”
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2018, 10:41:53 AM
The mayor plays things pretty close to the chest, but if this isn't his own initiative, he'd be very supportive. It's being moved forward by the JEA board, who are all Curry appointees (when he took office, he pushed out all the board members (http://www.jacksonville.com/article/20150907/NEWS/801252717) appointed by Mayor Brown). A number of news articles (http://sunshinestatenews.com/story/jea-privatization-line-lenny-currys-goals-jacksonville) citing insiders speak to Curry's support of the move, even if he's mostly staying quiet about it so far; his adviser (now Chief of Staff) Brian Hughes was quoted as saying:

Quote

“It’s very real. There will be a serious look at it,” Curry’s political adviser Brian Hughes told Sunshine State News about the idea. “Lenny is a former accountant who was an entrepreneur. He’s a free market Republican. It’s consistent with his ideology.”


Anna Brosche has said Curry pushed for a council meeting to move the sale forward, and wanted emergency legislation (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-city-council-president-i-wont-rush-the-sale-of-jea/698656982) to that end. He denies that he wanted emergency legislation, but he did go ahead and call the meeting (http://news.wjct.org/post/mayor-calls-special-meeting-over-jea-report-against-wishes-city-council-president) when Council wouldn't do it. The fact that he then launched a frontal assault (http://floridapolitics.com/archives/256052-curry-jea) on Anna Brosche for merely suggesting that supported the topic of this meeting he wanted doesn't exactly speak toward his neutrality on this issue. On another note, this tendency of Curry and his agents to go beast mode on folks who give insufficient support to his initiatives is the single worst thing about Curry's term as mayor.

Regardless of who's ultimately behind the plan, the real question is what supporters think we'd get out of it. It really would just be the windfall from the initial sale, as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now. There are claims that privatization would reduce prices for consumers, but I haven't seen anything to support that.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Josh on February 13, 2018, 10:44:49 AM
I assume JEA in it's current form is a community asset... Is it?  Perhaps the time is coming where it is no longer an asset but a net loss?  I read that Curry is supportive of the idea... but what does that really mean? 

This whole process is Curry's doing. He wants a windfall for the city to fund his next political "win."

Clearly that is the opinion of many... yet I have yet to see any real evidence of it...

I doubt you'll ever get "evidence," but...

Quote
Tom Petway — one of Curry’s closest financial backers — put the entire sale process in motion last year when he suggested in his final meeting as a JEA board member that the utility explore the option, a move Curry quickly supported publicly.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180212/council-president-rejects-calling-wednesday-meeting-on-jea-sale-so-mayor-calls-one-himself


Sooo because Petway suggested they explore the options it is a bad thing?  here is the opening of the draft document...

Quote
Introduction
On November 28, 2017, in his final meeting as a Director of the JEA Board, Mr. Thomas Petway posed the
following questions…

“Would the customers of JEA and the people of Jacksonville be better served in the private marketplace?”
“Should JEA and the city of Jacksonville consider the financial benefits that would come from the
privatization of JEA?”

This topic has been raised and studied in the past. The conclusions of prior studies were that the City and
the ratepayers would be better served by having JEA remain in place as a municipally-owned utility. But
as Mr. Petway accurately stated at the November meeting, the utility market is vastly different than when
JEA was formed in 1967. Further, the utility market is quite different than it was just five years ago when
this topic was last studied.

The outlook for the future of the utility industry, and specifically for the electric utility industry, is as
uncertain as it has ever been. Continued advances in technology will impact both energy demand and
energy supply. Technology has led to tremendous leaps forward in energy efficiency, resulting in reduced
energy demand; while potential growth in electric vehicle adoption could replace that demand in the
upcoming decade. On the supply side, we have seen coal go out of favor due to environmental concerns,
and nuclear due to cost concerns; while natural gas-fired and renewable generation costs have declined
dramatically. The prospects for continued change can be argued to make the utility industry more volatile
and riskier than it has been in the past.

The rapidly changing nature of the utility industry supports the need for the City and JEA to reevaluate
questions that have been asked and answered in the past. As a result of Mr. Petway’s questions and
suggestions, JEA’s new Board Chair Mr. Alan Howard made the following request of JEA’s CEO, Mr. Paul
McElroy…“…take up that challenge, evaluate our prospective position in the marketplace, and report back
on what the private market value of JEA may be so the citizens of Jacksonville and the mayor and other
constituencies — City Council — can evaluate that opportunity.”

I never said it was a "bad thing," just that given who Petway is, the fact he started this action on his last day on the board, and how everything has unfolded since then, I would be amazed if this didn't ultimately originate from Curry.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 10:48:29 AM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: KenFSU on February 13, 2018, 10:55:38 AM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Gunnar on February 13, 2018, 10:58:30 AM
Wouldn't paying property taxes decrease their overall profits and thus their other taxes ?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2018, 11:19:28 AM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: KenFSU on February 13, 2018, 11:27:36 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1864851886/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: camarocane on February 13, 2018, 11:29:45 AM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

If an IOU purchases JEA and breaks off the water and sewer side, we wouldn't see close to a 10% increase.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 12:30:44 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2018, 12:33:50 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?

It can change. One of Mayor Brown's pension ideas was to lower the annual contribution in exchange for a one-time lump sum payment to pay down the pension. It was a bad idea, as the city would have been out a lot of money in the long run. I don't know why JEA would go along with an increase unless they got some concession out of it, which may or may not be a good deal for the city.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 12:38:22 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?

It can change. One of Mayor Brown's pension ideas was to lower the annual contribution in exchange for a one-time lump sum payment to pay down the pension. It was a bad idea, as the city would have been out a lot of money in the long run. I don't know why JEA would go along with an increase unless they got some concession out of it, which may or may not be a good deal for the city.

Is it possible this "Value report" could be used to squeeze more money out of JEA?  Perhaps we are undervaluing JEA and they are under paying...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 12:55:51 PM
I re-opened the poll as there seems to be some additional interest...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2018, 01:03:32 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?

It can change. One of Mayor Brown's pension ideas was to lower the annual contribution in exchange for a one-time lump sum payment to pay down the pension. It was a bad idea, as the city would have been out a lot of money in the long run. I don't know why JEA would go along with an increase unless they got some concession out of it, which may or may not be a good deal for the city.

Is it possible this "Value report" could be used to squeeze more money out of JEA?  Perhaps we are undervaluing JEA and they are under paying...

It's possible that could happen.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: KenFSU on February 13, 2018, 01:22:54 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?

It can change. One of Mayor Brown's pension ideas was to lower the annual contribution in exchange for a one-time lump sum payment to pay down the pension. It was a bad idea, as the city would have been out a lot of money in the long run. I don't know why JEA would go along with an increase unless they got some concession out of it, which may or may not be a good deal for the city.

I believe there was also an attempt to get JEA to pay an additional $40 million per year to help pay down the pension debt, which they rejected and deemed not possible due to their existing debt service.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 13, 2018, 01:36:37 PM
Quote
as the tax money that would be generated from a private JEA would be far less than the contribution JEA pays to the city right now.

This is from the draft report...

Quote
Property Taxes vs. City Contribution

As a municipal utility, JEA does not pay property taxes on its land and assets; as an alternative JEA
pays an annual contribution in lieu of taxes. Should a private entity take the place of JEA, the taxable
assessed value of property in Duval County could increase by approximately 10% (the addition of
~$5bn net capital assets on the City’s ~$50bn taxable base). Based on current millage rates, this
increase in assessed value will equate to approximately $101 million of additional property taxes
receipts, of which $63.5 million would go the City of Jacksonville General Fund. Most of the
remainder would go toward funding public schools.

JEA is currently contributing ~$120 million a year to the general fund.

Correct.

Can this amount change...ie increase?

It can change. One of Mayor Brown's pension ideas was to lower the annual contribution in exchange for a one-time lump sum payment to pay down the pension. It was a bad idea, as the city would have been out a lot of money in the long run. I don't know why JEA would go along with an increase unless they got some concession out of it, which may or may not be a good deal for the city.

I believe there was also an attempt to get JEA to pay an additional $40 million per year to help pay down the pension debt, which they rejected and deemed not possible due to their existing debt service.

Thats right... just throwing out a hypothetical... The pension debt is huge... if JEA were sold and that debt paid off it seems possible that the $140 mil JEA sends us yearly might seem like a drop in the bucket...  All tax revenue could be used for things taxes are supposed to be used for and not simply tranfered out to pay the debt...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Elwood on February 13, 2018, 03:23:36 PM
While true that remaining funds would go towards public schools, the state dictates where that money goes. Nothing guarantees how much, if any, Duval county would receive.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: KenFSU on February 13, 2018, 04:23:25 PM
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180213/mark-woods-upon-further-review--make-sure-to-get-call-right-on-jea

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 14, 2018, 06:54:24 AM
Pretty good Op ed from the Times Union back in December...

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2017-12-01/sunday-editorial-selling-jea-has-never-made-sense-past-and-it-may-not

Quote
By Times-Union editorial board
Posted Dec 1, 2017 at 6:17 PM     
Selling JEA is an idea that comes up with every new set of city officials. But it’s never as simple as it first appears.

The utility has long been considered the golden goose because its revenues are so easily tapped for city government. But the politics implied by that fact have sometimes led to poor results for the customers.  For instance, a reluctance to raise rates in the early 2000s led JEA to build up large amounts of debt.  And an over-reliance on one source of fuel eventually led to huge increases in electric rates. 
In both cases, the political pressures placed on the ostensibly independent utility were huge.  Now JEA board member Tom Petway has suggested that JEA explore the possibility of privatization. 

It’s an intriguing thought.

Would an investor-owned electric utility serve area customers better? Would the city receive a windfall of cash that could be used for all kinds of local needs?  There is no harm in such an analysis, but something new will have to be found to make the finances work.  Selling to a huge utility like Florida Power &Light certainly would give Jacksonville customers benefits of its economies of scale as well as a diversified power portfolio that includes nuclear power and a growing amount of solar power.  But selling JEA has been analyzed twice in recent years by the City Council Auditor’s Office with reports issued in 2007 and updated in 2012.  In both cases, the math simply didn’t add up for city government.  In the 2012 analysis, the auditor estimated an annual revenue stream from a sale of $24 million and annual ad valorem taxes of $62 million.  That total of $86 million would be offset by the loss of $102 million of the JEA’s contributions to the city at that time.  That’s a $16 million annual shortfall.  So there’s no windfall for city government there.  Those numbers certainly could be updated, but the principles would remain. There would have to be some additional revenue source to make up the difference.  And there are many other issues to factor into a sale.

THE SCHOOLS WOULD BE A BIG WINNER

The biggest winner in the sale of the JEA would be the Duval County Public Schools. The school system currently receives no contributions in lieu of taxes from JEA, which is typical for municipal utilities.  As the Times-Union Editorial Board has long stated, the school system has been shortchanged for generations under this arrangement.  Under the 2012 scenario, the school system could receive as much as $46.8 million in annual tax revenues from an investor-owned utility.  You could argue that Jacksonville generally would be better off with this massive infusion of revenue to the public schools. Still, the city government would have to find revenue to make up the annual shortfall from a sale.

LOSS OF JOBS

A major downside to a sale that is not often mentioned is the presumed loss of about 750 high-paying JEA jobs with annual salaries and benefits totaling more than $70 million.  Again, those were the estimated numbers in 2012.  But the big picture remains the same.  Would a buyer agree to grandfather these jobs in Duval County? And even under a grandfathered scenario, it would seem that some jobs would be lost.

VALUE OF COAL PLANTS

JEA and its partner FP&L are shutting down a jointly owned coal plant. Coal plants simply are not economical these days with the low fuel and operating costs of natural gas power plants. So what are JEA’s coal plants worth? Who wants a white elephant?  And what’s the assurance that a buyer would even maintain power plants in Duval County? What’s to stop an investor-owned utility from building a plant in Baker County, for example?  There goes local property tax revenues.

LOCAL CONTROL

Oversight of investor-owned utilities is conducted by the Florida Public Service Commission. Local influence over the electric utility would be diluted. No longer could a mayor force the resignations of JEA board members — because there wouldn’t be a JEA.  “It is doubtful that an investor-owned utility based outside of Jacksonville would partner as closely with the city as JEA,” the auditor’s report stated.

ECONOMIES OF SCALE

Florida Power &Light replaced 5 million of its electric meters with smart meters according to its own design. Those meters allow FP&L to know instantly which homes have lost power. The utility also is a major builder and user of solar energy.  Though JEA is a large municipal utility with its own solar farm, it doesn’t compare to FP&L’s size.

ELECTRIC RATES

In recent years, FP&L’s rates have been lower than JEA’s — but the gap has been closing thanks to recent rate increases from FP&L.  In JEA’s most recent residential rate comparison, JEA customers pay $111.76 and FP&L customers pay $103.07 for 1,000 kilowatt hours.

WHAT ABOUT WATER AND SEWER?

The Jacksonville Electric Authority changed its name to JEA years ago because it was no longer just an electric utility. It took over the city’s water and sewer utility, investing billions in upgrades.  Would a water-sewer system be included in a sale?  It might revert back to the city.  In short, there is no harm in conducting another deep dive into a possible sale of JEA. Perhaps there is something that the previous council auditor analyses missed.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2018, 06:44:39 AM
Things are getting good...lol

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/no-consensus-in-city-council-over-jea-sales_

Quote
City Council president snubs mayor at meeting to discuss JEA sale
Mayor Lenny Curry has denied council members' claims he is pushing sale

By Jim Piggott - Reporter, Corley Peel - Reporter, Kent Justice - Anchor/reporter
Posted: 3:29 PM, February 14, 2018
Updated: 9:47 PM, February 14, 2018

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - At Wednesday's special Jacksonville City Council meeting, which Mayor Lenny Curry called when Council President Anna Lopez Brosche wouldn't, there were more fireworks in a growing rift between the branches of city government over the potential sale of JEA.

During introductions, Lopez Brosche refused to acknowledge Curry. She was among several council members who believe that the mayor's office is behind effort to sell the city-owned utility -- a charge Curry vehemently denies.

The report suggests that economic conditions now are good for a sale and that there would be a substantial profit for the city. Council members were told the sale could bring the city between $3 billion and $6 billion, but JEA's existing debt would need to be paid off out of the proceeds.

The report did not address what effect it would have on JEA's customers.

When Lopez Brosche did not recognize the mayor, he turned, gave a thumbs-up to the people in the room and sat back down.

"Here’s what I would have said," Curry told News4Jax outside the meeting. "This needs to be done in a transparent way. This is information only. There would be no action taken here today, and that the lens that I would view all of this through would be: Is this good for ratepayers and taxpayers, and is this good for JEA employees?"

The majority of council members told News4Jax before the meeting they do not have enough information to say whether or not they would support privatizing the city-owned utility. Most left City Hall saying they still needed to know more before making up their mind.

Some City Council members are also asking questions to city lawyers about the terms of a potential sale. They want to know if portions can be sold over time. They also want to know the implications of holding a straw vote during the next election to learn where the public stands on the issue.

Mayor's chief of staff denied
In a somewhat related note, City Council on Wednesday canceled access to chambers by Curry's chief of staff, Brian Hughes. This comes after a council secretary filed a formal complaint that he accosted her in an angry fashion and caused a "hostile work environment."

News4Jax learned Hughes' badge was deactivated for access at the order of Lopez Brosche. He still has full access to the mayor's office, just not the council chamber and offices and must be escorted if he visits.

Opposition launches robo calls, website
The issue has become a lightning rod at City Hall. Council members are receiving calls and email from people saying someone is calling them, blasting JEA and then transferring that call to City Council.

One person who emailed City Council wrote: "I am alarmed because instead of giving citizens the chance to get all the facts to make an informed decision, someone believes it is acceptable strategy to make broad unsubstantiated derogatory statements like 'JEA is mismanaged.'"

Councilman John Crescimbeni has been outspoken about the JEA proposal, saying the public outcry is premature.

"I personally, as a council member, resent that. If we’re going to have this conversation and we are not in any hurry, why would somebody be going to the trouble and pushing those types of calls to council members at the very outset of this process?" Crescimbeni said.

So far, News4Jax has not learned which group is behind the calls opposing the sale. We were told the callers do not identify themselves.

A website, JEAisOURS.com, sponsored by the Florida Committee for Infrastructure Investment, was launched that is laying out concerns about higher electric rates, lost jobs and other issues. That site was set up by a political committee with Democratic ties.

News4Jax crews are at the 3 p.m. meeting in City Council chambers. This article will be updated as the meeting progresses.

How the 19 City Council members feel about selling the JEA.
 District    Council member    Response   
1                    Joyce Morgan   Needs more info
2                    Al Ferraro   Not available
3                    Aaron Bowman   Not available
4                    Scott Wilson   Needs more info
5                    Lori Boyer   Needs more info
6                    Matt Schellenberg    Needs more info
7                    Reggie Gaffney   Not available
8                    Katrina Brown   Would vote no
9                    Garrett Dennis   Would vote no
10                    Reginald Brown   Would vote no
11                    Danny Becton   Needs more info
12                    Doyle Carter   Not available
13                    Bill Gulliford   Needs more info
14                    Jim Love   Needs more info
At Large 1        Anna Lopez Brosche      Needs more info
At Large 2          John Crescimbeni   Needs more info
At Large 3          Tommy Hazouri   Needs more info
At Large 4          Greg Anderson   Not available
At Large 5           Samuel Newby   Needs more info
 
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2018, 06:48:22 AM
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180214/meeting-about-jea-turns-into-bitter-feud

Quote
A meeting about JEA turns into a bitter feud

By David Bauerlein
@DavidBauerlein
By Nate Monroe
@NateMonroeTU
Posted Feb 14, 2018 at 6:18 PM
Updated Feb 14, 2018 at 9:54 PM

Amid meeting over how much money City Hall could get by selling Jacksonville’s electric and water utility to a private buyer, a feud erupted into the open between the city’s top two officials.

In a public meeting Wednesday where a utility expert revealed that privatizing JEA could net City Hall between $3 billion and $6.4 billion, the cold war unfolding before the at-capacity crowd between Mayor Lenny Curry and City Council President Anna Brosche left people gobsmacked.

The quietly unfolding feud — the intensity of which has not been seen in years — marked a new nadir between the leaders of the city’s executive and legislative branches, and it comes as officials are exploring the privatization of JEA — an effort the expert told city officials Wednesday requires unity from within the local government.

“Things have gotten too personal,” a former City Hall official remarked.

The genesis of the Wednesday meeting was itself the result of a rift between Brosche and Curry.

Brosche rebuffed a request from JEA’s chief executive officer to schedule a formal council meeting to discuss the utility’s dollar value, in the process criticizing the pace of privatization talks and the mayor’s handling of it.

So the mayor, infuriated by Brosche’s criticism, called the meeting Wednesday himself.

Things quickly went south.

First, Brosche shut down JEA board Chairman Alan Howard as he tried to introduce Curry. She refused to recognize the mayor and let him speak.

“I wish it were different, but I don’t have an obligation to respect someone who doesn’t respect me,” Brosche said after the meeting.

Then, as the meeting went on, Curry tweeted from his seat just a few feet away from Brosche, “It is unfortunate the Council President refused to call a public meeting to distribute a public document in a transparent manner. I called this meeting so all could get this document at the same time. I called this meeting for information purposes. No action to be taken.”

Finally, after a utility-finance expert finished presenting his findings to the City Council, and Brosche took the microphone to ask an initial round of questions, Curry and his chief of staff stood up, walked out, and held a gaggle for reporters out in the City Hall atrium.

“I was in there to see the document,” Curry said, adding that he called the meeting Wednesday so the report could be reviewed in a transparent way. He also rejected suggestions recently aired by some City Council members that he is pushing for the sale of JEA.

During the meeting, another revelation: Brosche ordered Brian Hughes, Curry’s chief of staff, to lose his badge access to the City Council offices. He now has to follow “visitor protocol,” which means he must be escorted through the main entrance to get to the back offices.

On Tuesday, Brosche’s executive assistant filed a formal employee complaint against Hughes, alleging he “accosted” her and angrily complained about her boss. Hughes called the complaint baseless, and the mayor’s office stood behind Hughes.

In the backdrop, the council chambers Wednesday were filled with JEA employees adamantly opposed to a sale. Some of them briefly applauded when Brosche refused to let Curry speak.

And no council members declared support for selling JEA, though many raised questions.

Meanwhile, calls paid for by an unknown group are making the rounds in the community, raising the suspicions of JEA employees and some council members.

The call alleges that JEA has “been mismanaged for years,” which Brosche called disgusting and said whoever is behind these calls should face the public. The calls also claim JEA has the highest electric rates in the state, which it doesn’t.

Michael Mace, managing director of Public Financial Management, a firm hired by JEA to assess all aspects of a potential sale, presented council members with a report on JEA’s potential value to a private buyer. He also walked through the hydra-like series of steps, trade-offs and potential complications of selling Jacksonville’s electric and water utility, which given its large size, Mace said would be one of the most complex of its kind in the United States.

The major revelation from the meeting was that JEA could be sold for a gross sale price ranging between $7.5-$11 billion. The city would net far less than that since JEA’s debts and other obligations would have to be subtracted out before City Hall would get any money. The net amount ranged between $2.9-6.4 billion.

The report presented by Mace did not include one of the biggest liabilities on JEA’s book, which is its unfunded pension liability. JEA’s most recent report shows it owes $554 million for pensions earned by its workers, an amount that would be paid by city taxpayers if the money doesn’t come from the utility’s revenue.

Howard, the JEA board chairman, said after the meeting that the half-cent sales tax approved by voters in 2016 “separately addressed” how to pay off the pension liability.

Beyond that, council members had pointed questions, and some doubts, about the rationale behind selling JEA.

City Councilman Finance Committee Garrett Dennis went a step further and slammed Howard. He told Howard point-blank that he should resign as board chairman. “In my opinion, it’s been a debacle,” he said.

Howard, who said he has no plans to resign, said he wasn’t surprised by the questions during the meeting. “The reality is that this is a tough question for the city of Jacksonville and it’s one that I anticipate will prompt a lot of robust debate,” he said.

Other council members said they didn’t hear a justification for making a change from a public utility to an investor-owned utility.

“I’m not sure what’s broken, first of all,” council member Tommy Hazouri said.

Councilman Danny Becton held his thumb and forefinger close together and said, “I really feel we’re only getting this much of the story.”

He said that before people get appraisals on their homes, they first sit down and decide that they want to sell their homes, but that part of the decision-making process seems to have been skipped over for JEA.

“We’ve really got the cart before the horse,” Councilman Al Ferraro said.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 15, 2018, 08:37:49 AM
Which municipalities still own their utility company? I know Gainesville does. Tampa and Orlando (or their counties) do not. Neither does Pinellas. South Florida has FPL.
Lakeland still owns its electric company, although the push to sell it comes up every few years. Other municipal owned utilities include Orlando Utilities Commission, Tallahassee, Ocala and Vero Beach. Outside of Florida, LA, Seattle, Austin, Memphis, Nashville, Omaha and Sacramento are all examples of municipalities that still owned their electric companies.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 15, 2018, 09:30:06 AM
Pretty obvious that the powers that be have already made up theirs minds and will try to ram this through.  Curry and Hughes are still in campaign 'seek and destroy' mode instead of the consensus building governing mode that they should be in.  That is a common malady of party operatives elected to office. 

This thing is going south in a hurry. If Curry really wants this to be considered on the merits, he needs to call a time-out, eat some humble pie, realize he isn't a dictator, apologize for his behavior and ask for a do-over.     
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: pierre on February 15, 2018, 09:37:36 AM
So what Curry donor is pushing for this? He can say whatever he wants, but his position is obvious.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2018, 09:50:39 AM
Pretty obvious that the powers that be have already made up theirs minds and will try to ram this through.  Curry and Hughes are still in campaign 'seek and destroy' mode instead of the consensus building governing mode that they should be in.  That is a common malady of party operatives elected to office. 

This thing is going south in a hurry. If Curry really wants this to be considered on the merits, he needs to call a time-out, eat some humble pie, realize he isn't a dictator, apologize for his behavior and ask for a do-over.     

Obvious?  From what I can see a report was requested... then generated... Virtually no one here read the draft report and I have not yet seen the final.  I would like to know what JEA is worth and what the city would get from a potential sale.  I would also like to know how it would affect rate payers, taxpayers, and employees... seems like basic governmental business to know what your assets are worth...

Here is what Curry said...

"Here’s what I would have said," Curry told News4Jax outside the meeting. "This needs to be done in a transparent way. This is information only. There would be no action taken here today, and that the lens that I would view all of this through would be: Is this good for ratepayers and taxpayers, and is this good for JEA employees?"
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 15, 2018, 10:45:57 AM
Pretty obvious that the powers that be have already made up theirs minds and will try to ram this through.  Curry and Hughes are still in campaign 'seek and destroy' mode instead of the consensus building governing mode that they should be in.  That is a common malady of party operatives elected to office. 

This thing is going south in a hurry. If Curry really wants this to be considered on the merits, he needs to call a time-out, eat some humble pie, realize he isn't a dictator, apologize for his behavior and ask for a do-over.     

Obvious?  From what I can see a report was requested... then generated... Virtually no one here read the draft report and I have not yet seen the final.  I would like to know what JEA is worth and what the city would get from a potential sale.  I would also like to know how it would affect rate payers, taxpayers, and employees... seems like basic governmental business to know what your assets are worth...

Here is what Curry said...

"Here’s what I would have said," Curry told News4Jax outside the meeting. "This needs to be done in a transparent way. This is information only. There would be no action taken here today, and that the lens that I would view all of this through would be: Is this good for ratepayers and taxpayers, and is this good for JEA employees?"

Curry is all on board with a sale. His actions speak louder than his words. Calling a meeting when the council chair declined to, on Valentine's Day no less, and expecting someone besides the Council President to run the meeting for instance. His financial backer initiated the study. Curry replaced JEA Board members whose terms had not yet expired.  The outcome is predetermined as far as they are concerned. Now they are just trying to ram it through.  The only question is will they succeed.       
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: camarocane on February 15, 2018, 10:57:25 AM
The report states that JEA is valued between 7.5 and 11 billion, and that after debt is paid the COJ may take home between 3 and 6 billion.
A few problems call out at last nights meeting I felt were red flags were as follows:
-Report was not a valuation, but an evaluation. As an evaluation, it did not consider assets, only considered what a mid-sized utility company would currently fetch on the market. Consultant was not certified to make any valuation of the company.
-Report mentioned a 1.2 billion dollar deficit JEA owed on a nuclear plan, however that was not included in the final debt.
-Report did not mention the cost of upgrading septic (a promise that was made from JEA at consolidation) ~$2billion.
-Report closed the annual payment gap to the COJ by suggesting a 6% franchise fee instead of a 3% as currently paid. Did not mention that this may be transferred (as it is currently) to the ratepayers as a line item on the bill.

My takeaway is that the Council wants to know why the question to sale was asked, who asked the question, and why do we need the money. 

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: MEGATRON on February 15, 2018, 12:29:04 PM
The report states that JEA is valued between 7.5 and 11 billion, and that after debt is paid the COJ may take home between 3 and 6 billion.
A few problems call out at last nights meeting I felt were red flags were as follows:
-Report was not a valuation, but an evaluation. As an evaluation, it did not consider assets, only considered what a mid-sized utility company would currently fetch on the market. Consultant was not certified to make any valuation of the company.
-Report mentioned a 1.2 billion dollar deficit JEA owed on a nuclear plan, however that was not included in the final debt.
-Report did not mention the cost of upgrading septic (a promise that was made from JEA at consolidation) ~$2billion.
-Report closed the annual payment gap to the COJ by suggesting a 6% franchise fee instead of a 3% as currently paid. Did not mention that this may be transferred (as it is currently) to the ratepayers as a line item on the bill.

My takeaway is that the Council wants to know why the question to sale was asked, who asked the question, and why do we need the money.
What?  Why do we need the money? 
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: camarocane on February 15, 2018, 12:56:07 PM
The report states that JEA is valued between 7.5 and 11 billion, and that after debt is paid the COJ may take home between 3 and 6 billion.
A few problems call out at last nights meeting I felt were red flags were as follows:
-Report was not a valuation, but an evaluation. As an evaluation, it did not consider assets, only considered what a mid-sized utility company would currently fetch on the market. Consultant was not certified to make any valuation of the company.
-Report mentioned a 1.2 billion dollar deficit JEA owed on a nuclear plan, however that was not included in the final debt.
-Report did not mention the cost of upgrading septic (a promise that was made from JEA at consolidation) ~$2billion.
-Report closed the annual payment gap to the COJ by suggesting a 6% franchise fee instead of a 3% as currently paid. Did not mention that this may be transferred (as it is currently) to the ratepayers as a line item on the bill.

My takeaway is that the Council wants to know why the question to sale was asked, who asked the question, and why do we need the money.
What?  Why do we need the money?
If you are asking me personally, I couldnt tell you. Obviously more money = more stuff. Conversely, more money = more problems. Regardless, the point being, there should be some type of discussion with an end goal rather than arbitrarily adding money to the city coffers. Does selling JEA lead to Jacksonville's version of "Ice Town"? Or is there some other end?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2018, 01:02:56 PM
I suspect it is our pension deficit of $3 billion+...

Quote
Jacksonville still faces $2.86 billion of unfunded liability for benefits earned by current employees and retirees over the coming decades. The sales tax is aimed at helping the city get out from under the weight of that debt, which has driven annual city pension costs from $78 million in 2008 to $290 million this year.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-04-21/city-council-says-yes-curry-s-pension-reform-package
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 16, 2018, 09:42:45 AM

As one of the largest power providers in South Carolina, Santee Cooper directly serves more than 165,000 residential and commercial customers in Berkeley, Georgetown, and Horry counties. With a diverse fuel and energy supply of coal, nuclear, oil, gas, hydro and some renewable energy, Santee Cooper supplies power to the cities of Bamberg and Georgetown, 30 large industrial customers, and Charleston Air Force Base. Santee Cooper generates the power distributed by some of South Carolina's electric cooperatives.

https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/two-utilities-offering-about-billion-each-to-buy-santee-cooper/article_9ec72476-12a3-11e8-bd05-2fe1638c6bc9.html (https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/two-utilities-offering-about-billion-each-to-buy-santee-cooper/article_9ec72476-12a3-11e8-bd05-2fe1638c6bc9.html)

Two utilities, Florida's NextEra Energy and Greenville's Pacolet Milliken, are willing to offer roughly $10 billion each to buy state-run Santee Cooper's electric business, a source with knowledge of the negotiations told The Post and Courier Thursday.

A third utility that the source declined to identify made an offer to manage Santee Cooper and work toward buying the Moncks Corner-based power provider.

The offers cover Santee Cooper's electric generation, transmission and distribution businesses that serve nearly two million South Carolina customers, mostly through power sales to 20 electric cooperatives around South Carolina.

Any sale approved by the General Assembly would eliminate Santee Cooper's $8 billion in debt or risk a veto from Gov. Henry McMaster. McMaster started looking for buyers for Santee Cooper soon after the utility and South Carolina Electric & Gas pulled the plug on a decade-long nuclear construction project in Fairfield County. Half of Santee Cooper's debt comes from the abandoned $9 billion reactors at the V.C. Summer Nuclear Station.

Talk about selling Santee Cooper has heated up since SCE&G's parent company, SCANA Corp., received a $14.6 billion buyout offer from Virginia's Dominion Energy in January.

NextEra, itching to move into South Carolina, has been seen as a favorite to buy Santee Cooper. Leaders from the Florida company have kept in constant contact with McMaster and Statehouse leaders and hired eight lobbyists, including a pair of former top lawmakers.


Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: ronchamblin on February 17, 2018, 09:54:07 AM
Over recent years there seems to be a cyclical return of the idea of privatizing JEA.  I am ignorant as to the benefit of doing so, or the benefit of the status quo.  The complexity of the JEA system might leave most of us ignorant on this question. 

Two issues seem to be important.  One is to ponder the best scenario for operating the system to optimum performance; that is, in the best efficiency.  The other issue is which route would provide the best scenario for the JEA worker, and for the citizens who, I presume, currently own, by some distance, the JEA; that is, which route would provide the best service, at the best cost to the consumer citizen.

I suspect that the JEA system can achieve and maintain optimum performance whether operating under a private concern, or whether remaining as is. Given the qualities within most engineers, management, and workers, I suspect the motivation to operate with the greatest efficiency exists in either scenario.  Therefore, one might wonder about the greatest variable to which we might offer attention when pondering the question of privatization.

Of course, the greatest variable is that of profit; that is, the distance between actual operating costs, and the rates set upon the citizens using the electricity.  Currently, I suspect there is reasonable sensitivity to ensuring that the citizen of delivered electricity via a fair rate, and that the worker is not forced to near slave like conditions, as with the current Amazon work camps.

If nobody actually knows for sure whether the privatized scenario will provide a better overall scenario for the citizen, everyone should know that privatization will provide an open door for an escalation of rates far above what is necessary for operation.  Privatization will allow the quest for high profits will take hold, to gain momentum, becoming another mechanism for financially exploiting the average citizen so that more of the already wealthy can become more wealthy.  Our nation has seen this obscene scenario take place in many sectors.  It is one cause of the continuing drift to further inequality.

I suspect that there have been lobbyists, or persons similar, who, over recent years have applied pressure for privatization of JEA.  Why?  Because JEA provides another vehicle for big profits for a few who, by their control and their insensitivity to the plight of the average citizen, will not shy in maximizing the quest for more riches.

Mayor Curry is of course aligned with the Republicans who, by most of the news, the history, and perhaps the propaganda, seem to be less concerned about the average citizen, the poor, and the struggling, and more concerned about profits for their political compatriots, their campaign contributors, and simply those already enjoying a good level of wealth.

There is nothing wrong with entertaining the idea of privatization of JEA, as it is a question that must be addressed simply because it is an option.  The question is whether Mayor Curry, the city council, and others of influence, will allow the quest for great profits for a few, to override the wellbeing of the average citizen, the poor, the struggling worker … those who are already disadvantage by a system structured by a dynamic set with many mechanisms to perpetually shift wealth to those already set in obscene comforts.

Privatization would be relinquishing control of JEA to a group of individuals that could possibly … and with good probability … financially rape the average citizen already struggling in a system set for exploitation of the average worker. 

Privatization is good in some respects, as it applies pressure to greater efficiency.  But, given the example of a privatized Amazon scenario, wherein most work under near slave like conditions, for poor wages and heavy stress, the prospects for worker conditions at a privatized JEA is not good.  The “squeeze” effect in a privatized entity, with high motivation to gain high profits for a few wealthy shareholders and owners, and high motivation to cut costs via low wages and slave like worker conditions, can be devastating to the average worker, and to the consumer. The slightly greater efficiency, if there would in fact be any, under a privatized JEA, would encourage worse working conditions for the employees … more stress, and perhaps less pay, given the quest for maximized profits for the few who gain at the top. 


Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Adam White on February 17, 2018, 02:00:58 PM
Over recent years there seems to be a cyclical return of the idea of privatizing JEA.  I am ignorant as to the benefit of doing so, or the benefit of the status quo.  The complexity of the JEA system might leave most of us ignorant on this question. 

Two issues seem to be important.  One is to ponder the best scenario for operating the system to optimum performance; that is, in the best efficiency.  The other issue is which route would provide the best scenario for the JEA worker, and for the citizens who, I presume, currently own, by some distance, the JEA; that is, which route would provide the best service, at the best cost to the consumer citizen.

I suspect that the JEA system can achieve and maintain optimum performance whether operating under a private concern, or whether remaining as is. Given the qualities within most engineers, management, and workers, I suspect the motivation to operate with the greatest efficiency exists in either scenario.  Therefore, one might wonder about the greatest variable to which we might offer attention when pondering the question of privatization.

Of course, the greatest variable is that of profit; that is, the distance between actual operating costs, and the rates set upon the citizens using the electricity.  Currently, I suspect there is reasonable sensitivity to ensuring that the citizen of delivered electricity via a fair rate, and that the worker is not forced to near slave like conditions, as with the current Amazon work camps.

If nobody actually knows for sure whether the privatized scenario will provide a better overall scenario for the citizen, everyone should know that privatization will provide an open door for an escalation of rates far above what is necessary for operation.  Privatization will allow the quest for high profits will take hold, to gain momentum, becoming another mechanism for financially exploiting the average citizen so that more of the already wealthy can become more wealthy.  Our nation has seen this obscene scenario take place in many sectors.  It is one cause of the continuing drift to further inequality.

I suspect that there have been lobbyists, or persons similar, who, over recent years have applied pressure for privatization of JEA.  Why?  Because JEA provides another vehicle for big profits for a few who, by their control and their insensitivity to the plight of the average citizen, will not shy in maximizing the quest for more riches.

Mayor Curry is of course aligned with the Republicans who, by most of the news, the history, and perhaps the propaganda, seem to be less concerned about the average citizen, the poor, and the struggling, and more concerned about profits for their political compatriots, their campaign contributors, and simply those already enjoying a good level of wealth.

There is nothing wrong with entertaining the idea of privatization of JEA, as it is a question that must be addressed simply because it is an option.  The question is whether Mayor Curry, the city council, and others of influence, will allow the quest for great profits for a few, to override the wellbeing of the average citizen, the poor, the struggling worker … those who are already disadvantage by a system structured by a dynamic set with many mechanisms to perpetually shift wealth to those already set in obscene comforts.

Privatization would be relinquishing control of JEA to a group of individuals that could possibly … and with good probability … financially rape the average citizen already struggling in a system set for exploitation of the average worker. 

Privatization is good in some respects, as it applies pressure to greater efficiency.  But, given the example of a privatized Amazon scenario, wherein most work under near slave like conditions, for poor wages and heavy stress, the prospects for worker conditions at a privatized JEA is not good.  The “squeeze” effect in a privatized entity, with high motivation to gain high profits for a few wealthy shareholders and owners, and high motivation to cut costs via low wages and slave like worker conditions, can be devastating to the average worker, and to the consumer. The slightly greater efficiency, if there would in fact be any, under a privatized JEA, would encourage worse working conditions for the employees … more stress, and perhaps less pay, given the quest for maximized profits for the few who gain at the top.

Privatization almost never works. You get short term gain, but long term loss. We need to move away from the flawed notion that everything should turn a profit.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 17, 2018, 05:58:20 PM
If JEA were sold, what would the one time influx of cash be spent on? I assume there must be a reason or critical need to consider cashing out now?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 18, 2018, 01:23:41 AM
If JEA were sold, what would the one time influx of cash be spent on? I assume there must be a reason or critical need to consider cashing out now?

This is my question as well. If you tell me that selling JEA is going lead to better infrastructure and quicker development downtown then I’m more apt to listen.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 18, 2018, 07:11:03 AM
If the proceeds paid off our huge pension debt and the tax monies currently devoted to servicing that debt were available for use in the yearly budgets this would solve a large long-term problem.  I  am not endorsing the idea but would like to know if it was feasible...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Avondaler on February 18, 2018, 09:20:15 AM
If JEA were sold, what would the one time influx of cash be spent on? I assume there must be a reason or critical need to consider cashing out now?

If there is any urgent need, why hasn't the mayor revealed what it is?   Is it because he wants to maintain the illusion that he doesn't have an opinion on privatization or is it because he wants to use it for things many wouldn't consider urgent?     As excited as I am about the District and Shipyards projects,  I'd be unhappy to see proceeds used to remove Hart Bridge ramps or city-funded infrastructure for the District.   
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 18, 2018, 11:30:37 AM
Some updates. The mayor is saying he's not for or against selling JEA but just wanted to explore the option.

Quote
Curry undecided on putting JEA up for sale
By David Bauerlein
Posted Feb 16, 2018 at 7:47 PM Updated Feb 16, 2018 at 11:30 PM

Mayor Lenny Curry said Friday he will be meeting with City Council members about whether the city should seek offers from private companies for JEA and what kind of up-front conditions the city should have for such a sale

As City Council debates whether it will give JEA the green light to put the city-owned utility up for sale, Mayor Lenny Curry said Friday he has not decided whether he would support the city taking that step, which he said would require ensuring terms and conditions are crafted up front to protect the interests of taxpayers and utility employees.

Curry said he is going through the report that Public Financial Management, a consultant hired by JEA, presented Wednesday to City Council about the many aspects that would come into play if the nation’s eighth-largest municipal utility were put on the market.

“I’m going to spend some time going through the report, digesting it, asking questions, collaborating with members of my team, collaborating with members of City Council and meeting with them to get their ideas,” Curry said. “But as I’ve said many times and I’ll say again — I’m not for or against privatization.”

At the City Council meeting, JEA board Chairman Alan Howard said that based on the high prices that utilities are attracting nationally, the city has a “once in a generation” opportunity for a sale that “could be transformative” for Jacksonville.

Curry said it’s too early to say whether a sale could have that kind of impact because “there’s a whole lot of questions that would have to be answered.”


http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180216/curry-undecided-on-putting-jea-up-for-sale

Others are skeptical.

Quote

News analysis: JEA debate cracks Mayor Curry’s armor

By Christopher Hong

By Nate Monroe
Posted Feb 16, 2018 at 5:09 PM Updated Feb 16, 2018 at 11:25 PM

Mayor Lenny Curry has had remarkable success muscling through major legislative wins in his first term, but the potential sale of JEA has proven to be divisive and calls into question whether he can keep his winning streak going.

The honeymoon might be over for Mayor Lenny Curry.

The first-term Republican has had remarkable success muscling major legislative wins through a City Council that more often than not was willing to give his administration the benefit of the doubt. Whether that kind of winning streak will continue is an open question after a public meeting Wednesday ostensibly over the future of Jacksonville’s publicly-owned electric and water utility turned into what one veteran member called a “debacle.”

In its wake, Council President Anna Brosche and Curry are in open war, and it’s clear there is no consensus on the 19-member council over how or whether to proceed with a sale of JEA to a private buyer — a move that would amount to one of the largest changes to Jacksonville government in a half century.

Curry and his supporters place the blame on Brosche and City Councilman Garrett Dennis, both of whom have become public antagonists of the administration.

“It’s gotten personal with a couple of people who want to discredit him,” said Councilman Bill Gulliford, a Curry ally.

For their part, Brosche, Dennis and other Curry critics say they are responding in kind to a mayor who doesn’t respect them, and that Curry’s sometimes confrontational leadership style has worn thin — a point even some Curry supporters acknowledge.

“Obviously based on some of the things that happened over the last week people are for a variety of reasons rejecting that type of approach,” said Michael Binder, a University of North Florida political science professor who also runs the school’s polling operation. “You can push for a while. Eventually people might pull back from that.”

...

The mayor has said he is still studying the issue and taking in a report delivered this past week that estimates the value JEA might have to a private buyer, and that he wants to work collaboratively with the council. Yet he has also struggled to shed suspicion aired by his adversaries in the community and on the City Council that he has been working behind the scenes to ram through a sale of JEA — accusations he has repeatedly and forcefully denied.

...


http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180216/news-analysis-jea-debate-cracks-mayor-currys-armor

It'll be interesting to see where this goes now. It doesn't seem like there's much public will to sell JEA like there was to do something about pension reform, for instance. I expect we'll either see this die, or the Mayor's going to have to seriously change tactics and work with Council.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 18, 2018, 03:45:31 PM
If the proceeds paid off our huge pension debt and the tax monies currently devoted to servicing that debt were available for use in the yearly budgets this would solve a large long-term problem. 

Wait, you mean increasing the tax payer cost of the existing pension plan combined with dramatically increasing the tax payer cost of future employees didn't fix the pension?!?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: camarocane on February 18, 2018, 06:14:58 PM
If the proceeds paid off our huge pension debt and the tax monies currently devoted to servicing that debt were available for use in the yearly budgets this would solve a large long-term problem. 

Wait, you mean increasing the tax payer cost of the existing pension plan combined with dramatically increasing the tax payer cost of future employees didn't fix the pension?!?
(https://i.imgflip.com/1rjzbt.jpg)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 19, 2018, 06:04:35 AM
If the proceeds paid off our huge pension debt and the tax monies currently devoted to servicing that debt were available for use in the yearly budgets this would solve a large long-term problem. 

Wait, you mean increasing the tax payer cost of the existing pension plan combined with dramatically increasing the tax payer cost of future employees didn't fix the pension?!?
Shocking isn't it... lol
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 20, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
Brosche Responds to T-U Editorial Slamming Her:

http://folioweekly.com/stories/brosche-responds-to-t-u-editorial-slamming-her,19238?utm_content=buffere6226&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 20, 2018, 06:31:39 AM
Did she just play the "If I was a man" card???
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 20, 2018, 08:01:41 AM
She did and as a man, I'd say she's dead on. That TU editorial came across pretty unobjective considering the era we currently live in and how Curry's actions have been covered by them.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 20, 2018, 08:21:13 AM
She did and as a man, I'd say she's dead on. That TU editorial came across pretty unobjective considering the era we currently live in and how Curry's actions have been covered by them.

Agree 100%. That editorial really had me scratching my head saying that Brosche’s, not Curry’s, behavior was “inexcusable” and directing their line about how “Elected leaders need to put their feelings aside and act for the people” at her rather than him.

It’s telling that Brosche’s the one getting advice like “Take the high road, understand he is a competitive person, learn to bite your tongue, and (repeatedly) don’t take things so personally“, and Curry isn’t. He’s the one who really needs to heed it.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 20, 2018, 08:21:55 AM
She did and as a man, I'd say she's dead on. That TU editorial came across pretty unobjective considering the era we currently live in and how Curry's actions have been covered by them.


Help me see what you do... I saw hardball politics on both sides... with her winning...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 20, 2018, 08:25:37 AM
My comment had nothing to do with her or Curry's actions and everything to do with how the TU has covered them differently.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 20, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
Ah... so there is disagreement over her treatment in an editorial?  Hell I disagree with them a couple days a week...  Not sure why that is news...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 20, 2018, 08:37:05 AM
Here is the editorial we speak of...

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180217/saturday-editorial-brosche-was-out-of-line-with-mayor

Here are some other recent ones...

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180218/sundays-editorial-dont-overreact-to-sale-of-jea

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180218/geust-column-godbold-supports-thorough-review-of-selling-jea
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 20, 2018, 08:43:16 AM
Ah... so there is disagreement over her treatment in an editorial?  Hell I disagree with them a couple days a week...  Not sure why that is news...
Yeah, no big deal. I just responded to your post asking "did she really play the man card". She did and given the context (a written response to easy to see "mansplaining" oriented coverage), she was correct to point it out.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxnyc79 on February 20, 2018, 02:26:34 PM
Curry was attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability.  Brosche fought back.  There should be more of these pitched debates.  TU editorials are hack jobs anyway. 
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 20, 2018, 06:14:40 PM
Wow. You must work in his office...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: ronchamblin on February 21, 2018, 12:49:30 AM
Insomnia ... forgive me.

Selling JEA would certainly, according to some, dump $2B … $3B … or $4B ? …  into the city coffers.  Surely the city would use this cash for improvement of infrastructure, and paying down high interest debt such as the pension fund.  This would provide funds formerly paid on debt, for use on projects providing long term gains for the quality of life for the citizen.

Sounds good.  But what of control?  The citizen has lost control of a portion of their destiny over the long term.  Control, I'm sure, would be given to extreme capitalists, with the agenda of maximization of profits for themselves and shareholders.  The citizens and the workers become vulnerable to a “squeeze effect” wherein all aspects of the operation; worker wages … worker safety … and consumer rates, evolve slowly to absurd limits, so as to maximize profits demanded by shareholders and other leeches sucking the system. 

JEA becomes a cash cow for whoever has control.  The dynamic in the capitalist system, if unfettered with oversight and regulation, ensures a reduction of the worker’s quality of life, and the exploitation of consumers perhaps already suffering borderline poverty.

I suspect that the occasional "opportunities" to ponder the idea of privatizing JEA arrives mysteriously from ... somewhere ... perhaps from some of the vultures ... the energetic and well informed capitalists ... who perhaps drool over the potential of a privatized JEA.  I suspect the occasional "invitation" to ponder the sale of JEA arrives via the route of politicians aligned with the GOP, as they are more likely to look positively to the event, being populated by a group of mostly arrogant self centered, corrupt, individuals seldom concerned about the average citizen ... individuals, most of whom are bought and paid for by the lobbyists hired by the wealthy to ensure the acquisition of even more mechanisms ... JEA types ... through which they and their partners in corruption can become more wealthy. 

I sense however, given so far the actions of Mayor Curry, that he is not of the type of GOP politician who would give in to the pressures of the above mentioned GOP / capitalist type vultures. But does reality allow one the simplicity of favoring the Democratic Party?  Surely, history has shown that most politicians .. of both parties ... are corrupt, and don't really give a damn about the citizens they are supposed to serve.  Indict and prosecute these arrogant mediocrities for grand theft, corruption, manslaughter via unnecessary wars, and allowing ... for money ... the proliferation of guns for the killing of our school kids  ... and execute by hanging or the firing squad a few hundred.  I suspect many citizens would love it.  Then perhaps some politicians will begin to focus more on the wellbeing of the citizen ... the country ...and the world ... with a little focus left over perhaps for ideas providing justice for all of our citizens ... even the disadvantage and the struggling minorities.

As for JEA ...the vultures lurk, waiting for opportunities offered by weakness ... for the victim's lack of vigilance.  The aim of the vulture is to ravage and consume. 

Actually, I recommend the guillotine for settling scores with some of the more arrogant and criminally oriented politicians; that is, after proper prosecution and sentencing.  I would love to design and build the guillotine to be used in settling affairs for the condemned guilty.  Being an engineer at heart ... inclined to design and build things, I would do a jam up job ... at no cost to the citizen.


Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 21, 2018, 07:14:07 AM
Brosche says...

Quote
“The City of Jacksonville has significant infrastructure needs, some decades long and remaining unfulfilled, and also seeks to make economic development investments to create a vibrant and attractive community offering economic prosperity to all of its citizens. The net proceeds from a potential sale could yield the capital investment needed to accommodate such investments,” Brosche said in a memo announcing the committee’s creation.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180220/council-president-forms-committee-to-explore-potential-jea-sale
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 21, 2018, 09:35:12 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 21, 2018, 09:57:14 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 21, 2018, 10:04:30 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...

The whole problem is Curry's own fault. Whether he's really neutral on the whole thing or not (I tend to doubt it), he started the attacks on Brosche when she wasn't pliant enough, and then rammed through a meeting she didn't want. How'd the administration think that was going to go? That's not a way to find consensus or persuade people. I say that as a Curry supporter.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 21, 2018, 10:09:53 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...

I ignore words. Words mean nothing. Their actions show their motives and those speak pretty loudly. There was no reason to treat this issue any differently than any other matter that comes before the city. In fact it should have been MORE deliberate and methodical than anything else the city deals with. Yet, the opposite was attempted.  That was blowing up in their faces, so they are regrouping, which is good, but don't pretend that they didn't show their hand.   
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 21, 2018, 10:14:59 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...

The whole problem is Curry's own fault. Whether he's really neutral on the whole thing or not (I tend to doubt it), he started the attacks on Brosche when she wasn't pliant enough, and then rammed through a meeting she didn't want. How'd the administration think that was going to go? That's not a way to find consensus or persuade people. I say that as a Curry supporter.

First I really do not see much of a problem... it is politics... Is Curry really neutral?  I doubt it also but he is smartly not saying much until we have some facts(the report).  Why didn't Brosche want a meeting?  She says she wants transparency yet didn't want a meeting?  I want to see the information... ALL of it.  I want to know What Curry plans to do... if anything...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 21, 2018, 10:16:45 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...

I ignore words. Words mean nothing. Their actions show their motives and those speak pretty loudly. There was no reason to treat this issue any differently than any other matter that comes before the city. In fact it should have been MORE deliberate and methodical than anything else the city deals with. Yet, the opposite was attempted.  That was blowing up in their faces, so they are regrouping, which is good, but don't pretend that they didn't show their hand.   

Ah... so no quotes.  Words mean nothing... memorable.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 21, 2018, 11:04:39 AM
Wow. You must work in his office...

All it takes is the ability to read.

Brosche is doing what should have been done from the start. The council has a committee process for most things, including topics far less important than this one.     

Thanks Vic... please show me the quotes where Curry is proposing..."attempting to steam-roll and build a momentum of inevitability".  The assumptions being made about everyone's motives is a bit hysterical...  If there is something nefarious afoot then lets see it... I for one want to know more about JEA's worth... Currys plans if any... the Boards plans etc... this infighting over an unfinished report is ridiculous...

The whole problem is Curry's own fault. Whether he's really neutral on the whole thing or not (I tend to doubt it), he started the attacks on Brosche when she wasn't pliant enough, and then rammed through a meeting she didn't want. How'd the administration think that was going to go? That's not a way to find consensus or persuade people. I say that as a Curry supporter.

First I really do not see much of a problem... it is politics... Is Curry really neutral?  I doubt it also but he is smartly not saying much until we have some facts(the report).  Why didn't Brosche want a meeting?  She says she wants transparency yet didn't want a meeting?  I want to see the information... ALL of it.  I want to know What Curry plans to do... if anything...

Brosche explained why she didn't want the meeting. There already was a JEA board meeting lined up where they could give updates on the JEA evaluation. She felt the City Council meeting the Mayor wanted would be used to call a vote on the sale issue. This was because of things the mayor and his people have said - the chief of staff apparently even suggested that City Council could push the sale forward as an emergency measure.

She said she wasn't opposed to getting the conversation started in council where the auditor and public could weigh in. If the mayor wanted that (and/or wasn't feeling slighted that a meeting he requested was denied) he could have backed off and done things the usual way, without putting the council on the defensive. Instead he attacked Brosche, forced the meeting, upset Council, and drew a lot of press suggesting he was trying to push something through without public input.

I'm not saying this is much of a problem per se, except on the mayor's end. It shows that the sharp-elbowed approach isn't effective in all cases. Hopefully the administration learns from this and changes tacks.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 21, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 21, 2018, 11:14:46 AM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.

LOL! You are so full of shit, Matt.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 21, 2018, 11:17:10 AM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.

LOL! You are so full of shit, Matt.

You don't think the council laid down? Did you read the transcripts of those meetings? They were a joke.

On second thought. do you actually think the Curry Pension changes were good for Jacksonville? If so, I will take the "full of shit" as quite the compliment.

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 21, 2018, 12:01:23 PM
It may be recess time,  so to get this back to the subject.
It is my theory that the apparent continued downward spiral with the Curry relationship to some of the council members is partially related to regret on some of the council members parts for their passive response to the Curry Pension plan. For example here is a quote from Dennis:
"Privatization, Dennis said Monday night at a meeting of Duval Democrats, would be “bad for our city … a cover for a shortfall for a bad pension plan that we were all duped into passing.” He should own it though. Pathetic to say "he was duped".

I think it is an excellent move to review the possibility of selling JEA and at the very least get a reasonable idea of its current value and compare to the annual contribution.

I could do without the antics from both "sides", though. At least they are not saying each other is "full of shit". So there's that.

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 21, 2018, 12:14:12 PM
related:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/florida-city-ponders-privatizing-8th-largest-u-s-public-utility
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 21, 2018, 04:25:51 PM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.

LOL! You are so full of shit, Matt.

You don't think the council laid down? Did you read the transcripts of those meetings? They were a joke.

On second thought. do you actually think the Curry Pension changes were good for Jacksonville? If so, I will take the "full of shit" as quite the compliment.

I should've included some winking emojis. It was partially meant in jest, a comment directed at your tendency to bloviate with not-insignificant regularity about the pension in unrelated threads. ;) (that work?)

Neither the pension issue nor the JEA sale are black and white. When John Delaney, my father, left office, the pension was fully funded and the benefits to the cops and firefighters were perfectly reasonable. The troubles came up in subsequent years as the unions convinced the city to start adding benefits without investing more money. That came to a head in a little historical event known as the Great Recession, and just got worse after several years of failure to pass reform by the city.

Curry didn't create this problem, he inherited it, but he stepped up to try and resolve it. And there was no way of treating the problem without more money going in. Some people like to dream that it all could have been washed away by just stripping more benefits from the cops and firefighters. Even if that were a good idea (it's not), it's literally impossible. The unions have *no reason* to go along with something like that. And they don't just "lie down like worthless dogs" because our local financial geniuses think it would be cooler if they did. ;) How much longer should we have waited around for an impossibility?

Moving back to the JEA sale, your comment seems to suggest that the Council and Curry should be fighting as a matter of course. I disagree, that just creates perpetual stalemate. Especially for something like this, which is mostly an intellectual disagreement between two sides who presumably both feel their position to be the most efficacious. It's something to sort out and move forward, not to stay at loggerheads over forever.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 21, 2018, 05:59:57 PM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.

LOL! You are so full of shit, Matt.

You don't think the council laid down? Did you read the transcripts of those meetings? They were a joke.

On second thought. do you actually think the Curry Pension changes were good for Jacksonville? If so, I will take the "full of shit" as quite the compliment.

I should've included some winking emojis. It was partially meant in jest, a comment directed at your tendency to bloviate with not-insignificant regularity about the pension in unrelated threads. ;) (that work?)

Neither the pension issue nor the JEA sale are black and white. When John Delaney, my father, left office, the pension was fully funded and the benefits to the cops and firefighters were perfectly reasonable. The troubles came up in subsequent years as the unions convinced the city to start adding benefits without investing more money. That came to a head in a little historical event known as the Great Recession, and just got worse after several years of failure to pass reform by the city.

Curry didn't create this problem, he inherited it, but he stepped up to try and resolve it. And there was no way of treating the problem without more money going in. Some people like to dream that it all could have been washed away by just stripping more benefits from the cops and firefighters. Even if that were a good idea (it's not), it's literally impossible. The unions have *no reason* to go along with something like that. And they don't just "lie down like worthless dogs" because our local financial geniuses think it would be cooler if they did. ;) How much longer should we have waited around for an impossibility?

Moving back to the JEA sale, your comment seems to suggest that the Council and Curry should be fighting as a matter of course. I disagree, that just creates perpetual stalemate. Especially for something like this, which is mostly an intellectual disagreement between two sides who presumably both feel their position to be the most efficacious. It's something to sort out and move forward, not to stay at loggerheads over forever.

Ba ha ha ha ha. I didn't know Delaney was your father. That explains your reaction! Too funny. And it certainly explains your "pension education".

I am well aware of your fathers history with the pension and his interviews regarding the 2001 agreement, amendments, and how he "left the pension". And, this financial genius says he is "full of shit" :)

Ok, we are on to JEA.

On a side note, If anyone ever wants to get a real pension education , I am always willing to discuss it and my fee is a coffee, preferably at a San Marco location. PM me as slots always fill up fast.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 21, 2018, 10:49:13 PM
I-TEAM: Emails suggest city began looking for potential JEA buyers in December

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/emails-suggest-city-began-looking-for-potential-jea-buyers-in-December

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180221/citys-unusual-search-for-financial-adviser-could-be-tied-to-jea-sale-auditor-says
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: camarocane on February 22, 2018, 07:29:30 AM
I-TEAM: Emails suggest city began looking for potential JEA buyers in December

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/emails-suggest-city-began-looking-for-potential-jea-buyers-in-December

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180221/citys-unusual-search-for-financial-adviser-could-be-tied-to-jea-sale-auditor-says
What a tangled web we weave...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: pierre on February 22, 2018, 08:18:55 AM
Gee...shocking.

And I wonder how many of the potential buyers donated to Curry's campaign or the Florida Republican Party.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Steve on February 22, 2018, 09:26:18 AM
I think Kyle Billy wrote that email in the manner that he did because it was public record.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Steve on February 22, 2018, 09:27:57 AM
With all of the craziness aside, I think it's a worthy discussion to have in the public view. Having an opportunity for a few billion dollar windfall is worth investigating. Not saying it's the right thing or not - genuinely I'm not sure (and not "I'm not sure" like Mayor Curry claims to be - legit "I'm not sure").
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 22, 2018, 09:33:22 AM
^^ This ^^  8)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 22, 2018, 10:03:01 AM
With all of the craziness aside, I think it's a worthy discussion to have in the public view. Having an opportunity for a few billion dollar windfall is worth investigating. Not saying it's the right thing or not - genuinely I'm not sure (and not "I'm not sure" like Mayor Curry claims to be - legit "I'm not sure").

Exactly. No matter what you think of Curry's motives, this is a sensible thing to review. Considering what happened with utility sales in 2017 combined with what may be the end of cheap money, if the city is going to sell, now is likely the best time. There are many variables to consider but if the net to the city is high enough it could be a no-brainer when compared to future revenues.
 Of course I am very concerned about something similar to FPL with sky rocketing residential rates, rolling blackouts, and their employees kept in a gulag working for bowls of gruel whipped by Evil Private Warlords.

I assume that those that are questioning what a windfall could possibly be used for don't have much time for following the city budget.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 22, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
With all of the craziness aside, I think it's a worthy discussion to have in the public view. Having an opportunity for a few billion dollar windfall is worth investigating. Not saying it's the right thing or not - genuinely I'm not sure (and not "I'm not sure" like Mayor Curry claims to be - legit "I'm not sure").

It is worth investigating, but when all the signs point to a predetermined outcome, it taints the whole process. You can't trust what has been done thus far.

What might be beneficial in the short term might be very detrimental in the long term. That was exactly the case with Pension Reform. Kick the can down the road, and let someone else worry about it later.

While the upside MIGHT be worth it, I don't see how you can expect to sell JEA without expecting significant job losses and unquestionably less local management control and far less control over rates.     
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on February 22, 2018, 10:36:03 AM
With all of the craziness aside, I think it's a worthy discussion to have in the public view. Having an opportunity for a few billion dollar windfall is worth investigating. Not saying it's the right thing or not - genuinely I'm not sure (and not "I'm not sure" like Mayor Curry claims to be - legit "I'm not sure").

It is worth investigating, but when all the signs point to a predetermined outcome, it taints the whole process. You can't trust what has been done thus far.

What might be beneficial in the short term might be very detrimental in the long term. That was exactly the case with Pension Reform. Kick the can down the road, and let someone else worry about it later.

While the upside MIGHT be worth it, I don't see how you can expect to sell JEA without expecting significant job losses and unquestionably less local management control and far less control over rates.     

Agree  the process will likely be sketchy.I wouldn't  trust Curry Admin as far as I could throw it considering tax payers will have trouble walking the next 30 years thanks to the "negotiating". But I am hopeful(maybe naive) that the council will actually do their job this time.

Considering the industry, I would say knowing if a sale/no sale will be beneficial in the long term is impossible.

I would only put it at 100% that with a sale you can expect " significant job losses ,less local management control, and far less control over rates. "  :)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 22, 2018, 11:57:44 AM
I just wish the council had reacted like this way with the Pension "debate" instead of laying down like worthless dogs while allowing Curry to Delaney the tax payer.

LOL! You are so full of shit, Matt.

You don't think the council laid down? Did you read the transcripts of those meetings? They were a joke.

On second thought. do you actually think the Curry Pension changes were good for Jacksonville? If so, I will take the "full of shit" as quite the compliment.

I should've included some winking emojis. It was partially meant in jest, a comment directed at your tendency to bloviate with not-insignificant regularity about the pension in unrelated threads. ;) (that work?)

Neither the pension issue nor the JEA sale are black and white. When John Delaney, my father, left office, the pension was fully funded and the benefits to the cops and firefighters were perfectly reasonable. The troubles came up in subsequent years as the unions convinced the city to start adding benefits without investing more money. That came to a head in a little historical event known as the Great Recession, and just got worse after several years of failure to pass reform by the city.

Curry didn't create this problem, he inherited it, but he stepped up to try and resolve it. And there was no way of treating the problem without more money going in. Some people like to dream that it all could have been washed away by just stripping more benefits from the cops and firefighters. Even if that were a good idea (it's not), it's literally impossible. The unions have *no reason* to go along with something like that. And they don't just "lie down like worthless dogs" because our local financial geniuses think it would be cooler if they did. ;) How much longer should we have waited around for an impossibility?

Moving back to the JEA sale, your comment seems to suggest that the Council and Curry should be fighting as a matter of course. I disagree, that just creates perpetual stalemate. Especially for something like this, which is mostly an intellectual disagreement between two sides who presumably both feel their position to be the most efficacious. It's something to sort out and move forward, not to stay at loggerheads over forever.

Ba ha ha ha ha. I didn't know Delaney was your father. That explains your reaction! Too funny. And it certainly explains your "pension education".

I am well aware of your fathers history with the pension and his interviews regarding the 2001 agreement, amendments, and how he "left the pension". And, this financial genius says he is "full of shit" :)

Ok, we are on to JEA.

On a side note, If anyone ever wants to get a real pension education , I am always willing to discuss it and my fee is a coffee, preferably at a San Marco location. PM me as slots always fill up fast.

Well if a financial genius says it, it must be true. Oh, if only people had listened to San Marco Matt, it all could have been avoided!

I'll take you up on that offer of coffee, though I don't particularly want to discuss the pension - not because I think you're full of shit anymore, but because I think you're so full of financial brilliance that it would blow my simple bumpkin mind  ;D

All other topics accepted. I'm in San Marco too.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on February 22, 2018, 12:03:06 PM
With all of the craziness aside, I think it's a worthy discussion to have in the public view. Having an opportunity for a few billion dollar windfall is worth investigating. Not saying it's the right thing or not - genuinely I'm not sure (and not "I'm not sure" like Mayor Curry claims to be - legit "I'm not sure").

It is worth investigating, but when all the signs point to a predetermined outcome, it taints the whole process. You can't trust what has been done thus far.

What might be beneficial in the short term might be very detrimental in the long term. That was exactly the case with Pension Reform. Kick the can down the road, and let someone else worry about it later.

While the upside MIGHT be worth it, I don't see how you can expect to sell JEA without expecting significant job losses and unquestionably less local management control and far less control over rates.   

I doubt it's possible to reckon all the contingencies decades in the future. But the status quo isn't necessarily the best option just because it's the path of least resistance. Public ownership hasn't meant that JEA has always been well run or made the best decisions for the ratepayers/city. But yes, vetting any change should be thorough and in the open.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: vicupstate on February 22, 2018, 01:34:53 PM
I wonder if there are examples of cities that sold their electric business 5-10 years ago. It would be interesting to see the results thus far. Albeit so many things are different from state to state regardless. 
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 22, 2018, 01:58:20 PM
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/2017/10/18/florida-power-light-co-sends-vero-beach-contract-185-million-electric-sale/775408001/

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/business/energy-environment/cities-weigh-taking-electricity-business-from-private-utilities.html
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Steve on February 22, 2018, 04:41:06 PM
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/2017/10/18/florida-power-light-co-sends-vero-beach-contract-185-million-electric-sale/775408001/

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/business/energy-environment/cities-weigh-taking-electricity-business-from-private-utilities.html

The NY Times article is particularly interesting. They talk about how municipal utilities tend to pay their executives more on par with government officials versus private business, and how after hurricanes they tend to have the power restored in days versus a week or two.

Interesting....
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Noone on February 23, 2018, 01:10:44 AM
Right now the poll to sell JEA is 31 NO and 4 YES
Poll closes 2/27/18

It’s easier here.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 23, 2018, 11:04:27 AM
I’m still on the fence with Yes or No. Until the city can provide the public with the benefits of selling JEA, it’s hard to vote yes. If the city said we are going to payoff the pension debt and start infrastructure improvements on certain projects within the 5 years from the date of the sale then maybe more people would be open to the idea of the sale.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: JagGator823 on February 23, 2018, 12:13:43 PM
I’m still on the fence with Yes or No. Until the city can provide the public with the benefits of selling JEA, it’s hard to vote yes. If the city said we are going to payoff the pension debt and start infrastructure improvements on certain projects within the 5 years from the date of the sale then maybe more people would be open to the idea of the same.

Totally agree.

Just one minute detail I wanted to point out. Pension liabilities aren't really something that can be "paid off" in the same way a mortgage can (unless pensioners agree to a buyout). Sale proceeds would likely be added to the fund's invested assets, potentially reducing taxpayer's future contributions, but not necessarily reducing our liability. One of my concerns is that given the current market environment, its probably a good time to sell an asset, but isn't really a good time to invest in public markets. Not saying i'm for or against reducing the pension burden on taxpayers , I would just like to see more details before anything is done.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2018, 07:49:32 AM
http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180225/sundays-editorial-will-jea-be-only-monopoly-left-standing

Quote
Sunday’s Editorial: Will JEA be the only monopoly left standing?

By Times-Union Editorial Board
Posted Feb 25, 2018 at 2:01 AM     
Civic-minded people have been asking recently, why the sudden interest in selling JEA?

What has changed?

Actually, there are two changes, one visible and one not so obvious...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: thelakelander on February 26, 2018, 09:45:47 AM
What did Tampa do with the profits generated from the Tampa Electric deal?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxjaguar on February 26, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
As someone who's had experience with JEA, OUC, GRU and Duke. The government owned utilities have always been cheaper, faster to respond and provided better incentives.

We've had a terrible experience with Duke since switching to them 2 years ago. They've misread our meter several times and overcharged us every single time. Had I not called and complained they would've gladly kept the $20-50 each time.

They also took 2 weeks to restore our power after the most recent hurricane. Meanwhile the houses literally across the street from us (on OUC) never lost power.

Finally, their energy audits are a joke providing barely any incentive to make upgrades to your home. Maybe it's just that Duke is terrible, but it's definitely left a sour taste in my mouth towards private energy.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on February 28, 2018, 12:03:25 AM
I wanna crash Tacachale’s and SanMarcoMatt’s coffee party (i will buy my own)
And, JaxJaguar, you are right. Duke is horrible. I would much rather deal with jea monopoly any day of the week than duke or vectren energy ever again!
And if this sale of jea (to whom?) has to happen, there better be transparency and voter input. But I still think it is a terrible and short sighted idea. There must be a better way to deal with the pension reform issue than to sell off one of the city’s best assets that we all technically own a piece of
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: DrQue on February 28, 2018, 09:50:32 AM
Instead of selling a huge asset that is a stable performer, why not just raise taxes moderately?

If the analysis on a JEA sale shows a slam dunk for residents and the city, by all means proceed. I am however sceptical because ultimately there likely will be a cost in the long run. This does not have to be a zero sum deal, but I have a feeling the rate-payers would bear the burden in some manner (price, service etc.). Privatizing a major asset just seems like financial engineering to cover for our incredibly low tax rates.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Josh on February 28, 2018, 11:03:17 AM
Instead of selling a huge asset that is a stable performer, why not just raise taxes moderately?

If the analysis on a JEA sale shows a slam dunk for residents and the city, by all means proceed. I am however sceptical because ultimately there likely will be a cost in the long run. This does not have to be a zero sum deal, but I have a feeling the rate-payers would bear the burden in some manner (price, service etc.). Privatizing a major asset just seems like financial engineering to cover for our incredibly low tax rates.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america

Bahaha, because we live in a world where proposing tax increases is political suicide, but considering slaughtering your cash cow is somehow OK.

When the city talks about using the windfall from selling JEA to take care of all of the "things" the city has neglected, that should be telling enough that low taxes are why these things were neglected to begin with. Aside from the large windfall, the city will actually be taking in less each year with a private utility, so one can assume in the long run there will be more "things" neglected. Even worse would be using the windfall to build out a lot of new infrastructure that will ultimately be neglected and begin falling apart 20-30 years down the road.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: acme54321 on February 28, 2018, 11:05:23 AM
Instead of selling a huge asset that is a stable performer, why not just raise taxes moderately?

If the analysis on a JEA sale shows a slam dunk for residents and the city, by all means proceed. I am however sceptical because ultimately there likely will be a cost in the long run. This does not have to be a zero sum deal, but I have a feeling the rate-payers would bear the burden in some manner (price, service etc.). Privatizing a major asset just seems like financial engineering to cover for our incredibly low tax rates.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america

Bahaha, because we live in a world where proposing tax increases is political suicide, but considering slaughtering your cash cow is somehow OK.

When the city talks about using the windfall from selling JEA to take care of all of the "things" the city has neglected, that should be telling enough that low taxes are why these things were neglected to begin with. Aside from the large windfall, the city will actually be taking in less each year with a private utility, so one can assume in the long run there will be more "things" neglected. Even worse would be using the windfall to build out a lot of new infrastructure that will ultimately be neglected and begin falling apart 20-30 years down the road.

Seriously.  People bitch and bitch about everything then when anyone mentions raising taxes to fix those things they lose their minds.  NEWSFLASH, YOU'RE GOING TO PAY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.  It's just like kicking the pension mess down the road  ::)
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on February 28, 2018, 12:36:14 PM
Welllllllll, one thought here, the city is sitting on how many vacant buildings and land parcels? They could sell some of those to start with..
**ducks to avoid the flying objects I’m sure that some of y’all might chuck@me 4 that comment **
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: lowlyplanner on March 01, 2018, 04:48:24 PM
Given the City's experience with the original Shipyards deal, the Courthouse garage, etc., why in the world would we expect not to get hosed in a deal that JEA's own consultant called "one of the most complex of its kind in the United States."

Chicago got royally screwed when they sold off their parking meters and garages.

Is Jacksonville going to field better attorneys and negotiators than FP&L?  Wall Street?  Hedge Funds?

If you're looking around the table and can't tell who the mark is, it is definitely YOU.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on March 01, 2018, 07:46:08 PM
Given the City's experience with the original Shipyards deal, the Courthouse garage, etc., why in the world would we expect not to get hosed in a deal that JEA's own consultant called "one of the most complex of its kind in the United States."

Chicago got royally screwed when they sold off their parking meters and garages.

Is Jacksonville going to field better attorneys and negotiators than FP&L?  Wall Street?  Hedge Funds?

If you're looking around the table and can't tell who the mark is, it is definitely YOU.

+1
The takeaway:
Dear Jacksonville leaders, please learn from the mistakes that have already been made in this city and Chicago. Others too, I’m sure, if I take the time to dig deep enough
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on March 17, 2018, 03:31:22 PM
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180315/city-council-panel-will-subpoena-jea-executive-to-testify-under-oath

Another giant red flag, hmmm they refuse to testify under oath?!?!? IDGAF about the excuses they give! This is just a bad idea all around, selling jea.. >:(
Like just scrap this whole selling jea idea, NOW, and if the city truly needs more revenue for whatever reason, then find other ways to generate it! There must be a better way. That’s my two cents
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: MusicMan on March 17, 2018, 04:52:55 PM
"Welllllllll, one thought here, the city is sitting on how many vacant buildings and land parcels? They could sell some of those to start with..
**ducks to avoid the flying objects I’m sure that some of y’all might chuck@me 4 that comment **"

Great idea, but good luck pulling it off. Evidently the ONLY WAY for the COJ to dispose of something they own is by RFP, whereby the peruse the offerings they get and PICK A WINNER.  LOL


I do believe, if the COJ owned a dumpster they would have a RFP in order to dispose of IT.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: jaxrox on March 17, 2018, 04:54:34 PM
Haha you may be right
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: DrQue on March 30, 2018, 11:32:08 AM
I do find it interesting that FP&L is currently running an advertising campaign in the Jacksonville market. I know they provide service in counties neighboring Duval. It just seems very coincidental for them to be running a PR campaign in Jax right when a JEA privatization is being discussed.

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on April 18, 2018, 01:31:53 PM
Ouch...

Quote

Former Mayor Godbold to Mayor Lenny Curry: I don’t believe you

By Nate Monroe

Posted at 11:30 AM
Updated at 12:58 PM
     
Former Mayor Jake Godbold told Mayor Lenny Curry the contentious debate surrounding a potential sale of Jacksonville’s electric and water utility has damaged Curry’s credibility and that he’s been getting bad advice that “does not appear to flow from what is in the best interest of of Jacksonville.”

The harsh observations — which Godbold shared in a previously unreported personal letter he delivered to Curry last week — amount to an eyebrow-raising upbraiding from the former mayor, who has a well-known gruffness and sharp tongue that he’s used liberally over the years.

“Despite your frequent statements that you’ve not made up your mind on the JEA’s future, I am one of a whole lot of people in Jacksonville who are having a hard time believing you,” Godbold wrote.

His letter is filled with needling opinions.

“I had no interest in being anything but mayor of Jacksonville,” Godbold wrote of his own tenure. “I (am) not sure the same can be said for you, which is perfectly fine,” he told Curry.

“As a former mayor, every day I communicate with a lot of people in this community,” Godbold said. “The public disagrees with selling the JEA, something you should know from your PAC’s polling.”

...


http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180418/former-mayor-godbold-to-mayor-lenny-curry-i-dont-believe-you
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Snaketoz on April 19, 2018, 08:37:50 AM
I am very suspicious of this new "interim CEO" of JEA. How did this guy, Aaron Zahn, get to be on the JEA board?  What were the requirements for, and what requirements does he possess to become a member of the board?  Who on the board enabled him to become a member?  Something is very fishy.  This guy has no experience in utility management.  I think this needs to be investigated. Zahn's only experience I'm aware of is running a failed human waste recycling business in Central Florida.  The business used city of Haines City's $300,000 to purchase land for the facility.  The company spent $60,000.  He is already saying he will explore the best future for JEA.  I think he's saying he will take the lead in selling JEA.  This needs some thorough investigating.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180418/in-past-job-interim-jea-ceos-company-lost-waste-recycling-contract-last-year-over-odor-controversy
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: DrQue on April 19, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
How did this guy secure the interim position over Dykes? She has been CFO for 5-years and has extensive experience in the field. This a billion dollar company we're talking about; a company with billions of dollars in public debt where decisions and expertise from the top matter.

This seems like giving the Icemen's GM the keys to the Jaguars.

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Snaketoz on April 21, 2018, 12:03:47 PM
The latest on the shenanigans at JEA.  http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180420/mark-woods-something-stinks-and-it-isnt-sewage-plant-in-haines-city
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2018, 09:51:41 AM
Well, this just took an interesting turn:

STATEMENT FROM MAYOR LENNY CURRY, CITY OF JACKSONVILLE

 

Since the consolidation of city and county government 50 years ago, we have had a countywide, electric utility. With the 1997 addition of public water and wastewater services, JEA is a community-based, taxpayer-owned electric and water service provider. Through its agreements with other private and public partners, we have been served by a locally-controlled production of electricity and clean water for decades.

 

These services are integral to our daily life; we need them to work, live and play. Also necessary is the need for our government and public entities to account for those things that belong to the taxpayer - from the assets of our municipal utility, to public buildings and spaces, and even the fleet vehicles our employees use. Next to public safety, I have no greater responsibility than to protect taxpayer investments and ensure budgets that are fiscally prudent.

 

So when the JEA Board and senior leaders of the organization undertook an effort to know the financial value of our municipal utility's assets, I was supportive. Our tax dollars and the hard work of public employees created that value, and city government has an obligation to preserve it. The discussion moved to privatization, and as city law speaks to this I felt an obligation to understand what impact the value had on future planning.

 

Since 1999, there has been a mandate written into our city ordinance code, Sec. 21.302, for anyone serving as mayor of Jacksonville, and the executive branch administration, to consider if essential government functions traditionally served by government could be better served through privatization. It is not simply a suggestion but a responsibility to consider this and for the mayor to make such policy decisions. As this law states, if and only if, the mayor submits a privatization plan would it then proceed to City Council.

 

As the elected leader of the executive branch, I take my responsibilities as mayor very seriously. I never proposed any privatization plan, nor did I ever suggest or say to anyone that I would propose such a plan. Instead, as I have consistently stated, I did not believe I had enough information to correctly contemplate such a proposal. That is why I wanted to gather information and talk to stakeholders about these issues. In this effort, I met with JEA leaders, municipal utility experts, financial experts, union representatives and workers from JEA.

 

Unfortunately, a clear and reasonable process to discuss these issues was hijacked by a few special interests and politicians with an agenda to put politics above all else. Fixated on the false choice of "sell" vs "don't sell" they created an environment fostering misinformation and mistrust. Despite this, the valuation undertaken by JEA leadership did yield evidence of important strengths we have in our community utility's balance sheet. It also revealed real weaknesses.

 

Technology and innovation are making renewable power more affordable, while efficiencies are reducing our water and electric needs. The result is data showing that JEA customers may increase in number, but revenues will decrease. We also learned that for a decade, a move toward nuclear power — although it was perhaps well-intended — has left Jacksonville saddled with at least $1.2 billion in obligations. Worse is that those dollars committed years ago, may never yield any real value to JEA customers and taxpayers whose backs this liability rests upon. When you combine falling revenue and billions in liability on the balance sheet, you have to take a hard look at the future.

 

The challenge of such a look forward requires leaders to strategically prepare solutions to the problems we've uncovered. We must also recognize that an organization unfairly spun into frenzy by politicians is leaving generations of JEA employees and customers feeling uncertain. This is why I am supportive of the recent efforts of the JEA Board and senior leadership to steady the organization and embark on internal reviews that strengthen the organization for the years ahead.

 

This strategic planning and long-term commitment to JEA employees and customers is also why I am choosing to state unequivocally that I will not submit any JEA privatization plan to the City Council.

 

I have consistently outlined that my priorities at JEA are protecting the investments made by taxpayers and customers, while also keeping the promises made to generations of JEA employees. Those priorities ensure consistent power and clean water for all of us, and I remain committed to these results.

 

– Mayor Lenny Curry
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Adam White on April 26, 2018, 10:06:40 AM
Someone needs to discuss proper comma usage with this guy.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: DrQue on April 26, 2018, 10:59:34 AM

Technology and innovation are making renewable power more affordable, while efficiencies are reducing our water and electric needs. The result is data showing that JEA customers may increase in number, but revenues will decrease. (...) When you combine falling revenue and billions in liability on the balance sheet, you have to take a hard look at the future.


So we acknowledge that energy demand will inevitably decline or flatten at best, thus lowering utility revenues. That in itself makes a case for public utilities. Privately owned, for-profit utilities by definition will always look for ways to grow revenues along with minimizing costs. Consequently, ratepayers would eventually bear the burden of private sector return demands, while a publicly owned utility is not necessarily bound to the same incentives.

Regarding his liabilities comment, he could also acknowledge the substantial debt pay downs that occurred under the prior CEO's term, reducing the utility's risk profile.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on April 26, 2018, 11:24:44 AM
Interesting...
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Snaketoz on May 27, 2018, 09:28:32 AM
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180525/starke-officials-say-interim-jea-ceos-old-firm-didnt-deliver
This interim JEA CEO and the methods used to get him in this position need some explaining.  This is not getting enough attention.  Zahn is a charlatan with absolutely no experience in running a utility.  He has a shady past, especially in small towns, and now somehow he is getting a very important job running Jacksonville's biggest asset.  WTF?
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: bl8jaxnative on November 04, 2018, 01:43:41 PM


Moody's has already downgraded JAX bonds.   Ownership of JEA is a huge liability for the city.  They don't need to own the utility to accomplish 95% of things they want to do via ownership.  The city can get it done other ways without the expense and risks of ownership.


https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/jacksonville-jea-slapped-with-downgrades-over-lawsuit
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sanmarcomatt on May 29, 2019, 11:21:38 AM
Might be getting a little less out of this "asset" in the future....

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/jea-predicts-huge-rate-increases-over-next-decade/77-085c1eba-6924-4757-9496-96244986355c


Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 29, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
I may be bad at reading, but I don't see where they stated why they would need to raise rates by 52%. 

They've had an 8% decrease in sales over the last 13 years and expect to see that continue, but that doesn't mean a 52% increase is needed.... Are they saying their infrastructure is dated and converting to solar energy is capital intensive? 

Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: sandyshoes on May 29, 2019, 12:01:38 PM
YES.  It's time.  Attaching some reading for your edification.   https://www.clayelectric.com/
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on May 29, 2019, 12:15:34 PM
This is just the gearing up of the push to sell of JEA. A bad idea that just keeps coming back.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 29, 2019, 12:27:08 PM
I may be bad at reading, but I don't see where they stated why they would need to raise rates by 52%. 

They've had an 8% decrease in sales over the last 13 years and expect to see that continue, but that doesn't mean a 52% increase is needed.... Are they saying their infrastructure is dated and converting to solar energy is capital intensive? 



What I got, was that there are certain fixed costs to providing electric and water service - maintenance of the lines and the generating and distribution equipment.  Also, there are the long term debt payments, including the Vogtle boondoggle.  All of these costs are fixed and must be met to allow JEA to continue to provide service, regardless of how much electricity or water they sell.  They are already selling less of each, despite having more customers.  On the electric side, they see the advent of cheap home solar as another threat to their sales.  Less revenue coming in to meet those fixed costs, plus the variable costs of providing utility service.  It would be interesting to see what the proportions of fixed to variable costs are for electric and water service.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 29, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
That's generally what I got.  So falling behind on both maintenance and innovation, in addition to poor decision making, has left them in very poor financial shape so their need us to bail them out by jacking up our rates. 
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Tacachale on May 29, 2019, 01:20:56 PM
That's generally what I got.  So falling behind on both maintenance and innovation, in addition to poor decision making, has left them in very poor financial shape so their need us to bail them out by jacking up our rates.

Or by selling off the JEA, which is what they're implying.
Title: Re: Should Jacksonville sell (privatize) JEA?
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 29, 2019, 01:42:27 PM
Result of decisions over the years not to raise rates incrementally.  Whether this was political, so as not to upset the voters, or short-sighted, in not looking ahead, the result is the same - large increases are needed now.