The Jaxson

Community => Transportation, Mass Transit & Infrastructure => Topic started by: ProjectMaximus on September 30, 2017, 12:26:49 AM

Title: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 30, 2017, 12:26:49 AM
I'm gonna just start using this thread to update changes to JIA's available routes.

After pulling out of UST (St Augustine) Frontier is now introducing 4 seasonal routes out of JAX. None of them are new routes but it's definitely an increase in capacity, options and will likely lead to more competitive pricing. All routes begin next spring to CIN, DEN, ORD and PHL.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-new-jacksonville-flights

This brings JAX up to 8 Mainline Carriers + Silver Airways and 2 ULCCs.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxrox on November 30, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 30, 2017, 11:42:42 PM
I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?

I have never flown Frontier so I can't tell ya from experience, but I'm sure it is much closer to Allegiant than Southwest. It's an ultra LCC like Allegiant and Spirit, very much no-frills and a la carte pricing, but as far as I know it doesn't have the reputation for safety concerns that Allegiant has had.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: martt12 on December 01, 2017, 04:11:24 PM
Does JIA offer direct flights to Seattle? If not is that something Jax will likely work on since Mayor Curry sent Amazon a proposal for HQ2? 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on December 01, 2017, 04:40:30 PM
I'm sure JIA is constantly working on getting as many flights as it can, particularly in unserved markets. They've shown that they are frequently in contact with airlines but there's only so much they can do. They can't magically produce numbers that aren't there and they can't really subsidize airlines...at least not to that extent.

Anyway I havent checked the latest numbers but I'm pretty sure that even with a fully built out HQ2 with 50k Amazon employees in Jax there still wouldn't be enough demand for daily nonstops to SEA. Maybe they could work out some creative solution for some kind of infrequent nonstop service, but I'm really not holding my breath. JAX-LAX is much closer to being feasible.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on December 01, 2017, 08:55:02 PM
Jax to Lax would be amazing.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on December 02, 2017, 08:39:52 AM
JAX-LAX could happen again. It’s JAX’s largest market that isn’t served (which considering LA is the number 2 market that isn’t saying much). But, apparently JAX is LA’s largest unserved market according to JAA about a month ago. Delta tried the route in the 2009 timeframe, but it failed-couldn’t full the plane. They used a 737, which I believe is the smallest plane they’d put on the route (though now they might be able to use an A319 now that Northwest has long been integrated. There is also the decision on whether or not the LAX-JAX leg is a redeye like Delta tried. Personally, not a fan of a domestic red eye (the flight isn’t long enough to me).

The only way I see a JAX-SEA route is if Delta does it (SEA a Delta hub and is one of their Pacific gateways) or Alaska enters the market. A Seattle destination alone wouldn’t do it; there would have to be some connecting traffic. Though, there must not be a huge market in JAX for those connecting to smaller western cities, or Delta would try a JAX-SLC flight, which is a much larger Delta hub and a lot more logical for folks connecting out west.

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on December 02, 2017, 03:00:57 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

It wouldn’t really be-ATL has a direct to their hubs in ATL/NYC (both LGA AND JFK which are both hubs)/DTW/MSP as well as a nonstop to Boston. All have their place in the Network.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Sonic101 on December 02, 2017, 09:52:00 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

It depends on the scheduling and how the hubs are banked.

Great video on how airlines schedule flights, which helps to explain pricing (especially flights to South America):

How Airlines Schedule Flights by Wendover Productions:
https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA (https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA)

Great Youtube channel btw^
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on December 02, 2017, 10:46:44 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

I tend to agree. However, the only benefit would be if this was an early flight to SLC. Whenever I fly out west, I prefer the earliest flight possible that will have me on the ground before 11am west coast time. So, I have a much better chance getting to my destinations early if I'm already out west.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on December 03, 2017, 10:55:32 AM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

It depends on the scheduling and how the hubs are banked.

Great video on how airlines schedule flights, which helps to explain pricing (especially flights to South America):

How Airlines Schedule Flights by Wendover Productions:
https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA (https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA)

Great Youtube channel btw^

Cool video!  I first realized that some airlines did this banking (didn't know it was called that!) when I flew to Australia in 2006.  It was impossible to fly from one city to another, other than this little two hour window.  ALL the planes left right then, which meant you couldn't get to your next stop early in the day.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on December 04, 2017, 10:16:07 AM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

Better flexibility. For example ATL to Portland OR has only 3 non stops and SLC to Portland has 6. Plus I am sure there are places served by SLC that you cannot fly to non stop from ATL. Example is several places in Idaho such as Twin Falls, Boise.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on December 04, 2017, 12:33:32 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

Answered already, but many small/midsize airports are not serviced by Delta from Atlanta. Reno and Boise are great examples, which is only serviced seasonally from Atlanta and MSP. The only year-round service is from SLC, meaning it's a two stop itinerary. In addition, there might be only 1 flight from ATL in a day to some of those, versus 3-4 from SLC.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on December 04, 2017, 08:52:04 PM
OK, those ideas make sense.  Thanks!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on December 06, 2017, 01:16:52 AM
I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?

From what I understand, Frontier makes Spirit, Allegient, et al, look pretty damn good. Another poster on this forum, when visiting me last weekend, said this about Frontier: ´it was our worst nightmare, like flying in prison´ and ´would rather have taken a Greyhound bus from Cali to Jax´

I´m one of those who, when flying economy, doesn´t mind the difference between an ULCC, a LCC, or a regular old legacy carrier like DL UA AA....

BUT...the horror stories coming out of Frontier make me think: never, under any circumstances, fly them.

Wish I had better news, but I do trust this guys opinion (and I do work in the travel business - all my colleagues seem to say the same thing).
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Gators312 on December 06, 2017, 07:10:06 AM
I flew Frontier back in August MCO-DEN for last minute work trip.   I had no issues, other than the slimline seats that many carriers are going to now days.  4 hrs in those seats is about all I can handle.   Other than that, knowing how an ULCC works I had no issues.  I did pay extra for the "works" which gives you a seat up front with a wider pitch and pays for your bags etc. 

It wasn't nearly as bad as I expect Allegiant to be.  Just my .02


Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on December 06, 2017, 08:57:57 AM
I have a friend who flew Frontier from Fort Lauderdale to San Francisco area. No complaints and said he would do again. I believe domestic coach flights as it relates to service is not much different for all major airlines these days.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 08, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
New Frontier routes

Jax to Austin, TX
Jax to Trenton, NJ

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-flights-from-jacksonville-to-austin

I have never flown Frontier but hopefully we can get some competitive fares from other carriers.

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on February 09, 2018, 08:17:01 AM
Hey that Austin flight is intriguing! This is like the third iteration of that Trenton route.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 04, 2018, 10:26:04 PM
Allegiant is adding non-stop routes to Louisville & Norfolk.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180403/allegiant-adds-nonstop-flights-from-jacksonville-to-two-cities

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 04, 2018, 11:00:04 PM
I was on a long car ride so 2 hours ago I was staring at google in my phone and decided to search for "JIA new routes" and was pleasantly surprised to find the daily record article from one day ago. Never done that before. I should probably try that every few months and see if we keep getting service added. Maybe I can google some historic rehabs or infill into existence too...

Anyway, I'm glad I can always count on someone on MJ to update this thread if I'm ever incapacitated.

Louisville is a very nice add. And maybe when they finally move the nuclear carriers to Mayport some of the officers can fly down too.  ;D
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: thelakelander on April 05, 2018, 07:37:36 AM
New Frontier routes

Jax to Austin, TX
Jax to Trenton, NJ

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-flights-from-jacksonville-to-austin

I have never flown Frontier but hopefully we can get some competitive fares from other carriers.


I flew Frontier to San Diego from MCO two weeks ago. Very small seats and they literally charge for everything.  I probably won't fly them cross country again, but would do so for a shorter trip. You can save a lot of money if you don't have baggage, carry ons and willing to sit in cheaper seats.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 05, 2018, 03:14:24 PM
There is very little chance that I would fly a low cost carrier across the country. Even Southwest is a bit tough to fly to California from Florida.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Sonic101 on April 17, 2018, 01:31:13 PM
So, Allegiant is in the news, and it's not good at all...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/)

Quote
For the past seven months, we have been scrutinizing 'service difficulty reports' filed by Allegiant with the FAA. They are official, self-reported records of problems experienced by their aircraft. What we found raised some disturbing questions about the performance of their fleet. Between January 1st, 2016 and the end of last October, we found more than 100 serious mechanical incidents...

The article is worth a read in full and really highlights the culture at Allegiant and some failings of the FAA.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 17, 2018, 02:19:26 PM
Yeah I did not see the 60 Minutes story but I've read a half dozen articles about it, and tbh these numbers haven't been a secret at all for the past year or so.

That said, I am mildly concerned about flying them in a few weeks. Not enough to not take the flight, but enough for me to express slight concern on a message board. Hope this post doesn't live on in infamy!!

As others have said, I dont have much of an issue with any of these ULCCs. I am skinny and not very tall so space is usually not a concern. And as a frequent traveler I am usually prepared with work/personal entertainment/sleep so amenities don't too much to me. My main concerns are delays/cancellations and whether the ULCC can accommodate me in such an event, as well as the bag and seat selection fees when they are necessary (half the time I don't need either). So far, I think I have taken a total of 7 flights on Spirit and Allegiant. Of those, 6 went smoothly. Only one flight, on Allegiant, was delayed and it was almost 4 hours late. Not good but could have been much worse. And was compensated with some snacks at the gate and a $75 voucher. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Gators312 on April 17, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
As the Mad Dogs (MD-88s) come out of the fleet the numbers should improve.   There was a time I wouldn't put a family member or myself on Allegiant, but those days have passed.  I think the 60 Minutes piece is a hit piece as some don't like the success that Allegiant is having. If pilots were that concerned they wouldn't fly for them, they would take another job at another carrier.  There are more jobs than pilots.   

But as today proves even those with one of the best safety records (SWA) can have incidents.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on April 17, 2018, 05:49:16 PM
As the Mad Dogs (MD-88s) come out of the fleet the numbers should improve.   There was a time I wouldn't put a family member or myself on Allegiant, but those days have passed.  I think the 60 Minutes piece is a hit piece as some don't like the success that Allegiant is having. If pilots were that concerned they wouldn't fly for them, they would take another job at another carrier.  There are more jobs than pilots.   

But as today proves even those with one of the best safety records (SWA) can have incidents.

Allegiant actually has MD-80’s which are even worse, but regardless of the age good maintence makes a big difference. For example, Delta has well over 100 MD-88s. I have ZERO concern flying on them (aside from no personal TVs on them!)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 17, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
I don’t have any issues flying Allegiant. However, it is tough to fly with them when you fly a lot and have perks with other carriers. I do miss the non-stop flights to New Orleans. Hopefully, we can get some better flights once MSY finishes their expansion.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 08, 2018, 12:04:34 PM
Six new routes on Frontier out of JAX! Still mostly seasonal but nice nevertheless.

Buffalo, KC, Vegas, Milwaukee, MSP, STL (I think it's actually STL and not Mid America like Allegiant)

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/nation-now/frontier-airlines-adds-two-new-cities-as-part-of-9-route-expansion/465-9796f70f-7ce7-4e0f-beba-4b0969590656

BTW I survived my Allegiant flight last week.  ;D Flight was a tiny bit delayed but I'll take that every time lol.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 08, 2018, 12:56:48 PM
Perfect timing with the KC route. That will come in handy during the NFL season.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 09, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: minder on May 09, 2018, 07:29:26 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.
To be fair, I think thats as sustainable as routes such as MCI, MKE and BUF can be.

Hopefully a west coast flight next. Would like to think LAX could be maintained year round.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: remc86007 on May 09, 2018, 09:49:16 PM
LAX would be awesome.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2018, 01:16:59 AM
Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn’t work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn’t ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 10, 2018, 10:16:50 AM
It's the sad reality of not being a hub of any kind. We are close to several hubs so it's unlikely we will ever attain even regional hub status (Silver Airline's aspirations notwithstanding). On the flipside, as an underserved midsized market (in FL especially!) we are able to attract these LCCs. Not just the big expansions of Frontier and Allegiant, but even Southwest and Jetblue back in the day were fairly early to our airport.

Regarding San Juan, I heard differently. In any case, those flights were often dirt cheap I am sad I never got to take advantage. Certainly our PR connection is growing so it could return someday soon.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 10, 2018, 10:48:47 AM
Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn’t work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn’t ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).

I actually prefer a red eye coming back from the West Coast but I sleep well on planes better than most people.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2018, 11:37:02 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there’s more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 11:54:46 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there’s more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.
Oh no, really?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2018, 12:34:52 PM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there’s more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.
Oh no, really?

The point was that I don’t see that changing in JAX unfortunately.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 03:33:59 PM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there’s more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.
Oh no, really?

The point was that I don’t see that changing in JAX unfortunately.
It will change Steve.  What it takes is a draw for more leisure flyers visiting Jacksonville.  When you are mostly business oriented you get business travelers.  The ones who's employer pays for the ticket no matter the cost.  If we get our beaches more attractive to leisure travelers, and an additional attraction or two, our air fares will come down and the passenger count will go up.  Simple.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: minder on May 10, 2018, 05:04:32 PM
Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn’t work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn’t ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).
I'd imagine if that service is to return it'll be on an LCC with less than daily service. I believe JetBlue operate BUF-LAX 4x weekly.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 10, 2018, 06:39:05 PM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there’s more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.
Oh no, really?

The point was that I don’t see that changing in JAX unfortunately.
It will change Steve.  What it takes is a draw for more leisure flyers visiting Jacksonville.  When you are mostly business oriented you get business travelers.  The ones who's employer pays for the ticket no matter the cost.  If we get our beaches more attractive to leisure travelers, and an additional attraction or two, our air fares will come down and the passenger count will go up.  Simple.

Disagree - the thing that drives higher fares and more profitable routes that stick around are the business travelers, not the leisure ones. You might see an Allegiant or a Frontier try a JAX-California route, but I doubt it succeeds. With the major carriers, you get a fair number of people either paying for First Class, or willing to pay $750+ to fly Coach to California on short notice. Those people are less than 50% of the plane, but significantly more than 50% of the revenue of the flight. That is what keeps a flight going day in and day out. Business travelers also can't rely on a 2 or 4 day a week service - I'm never going to move my flight a day to take advantage of a nonstop.

While the major leisure destinations might be able to sustain on tons of leisure travelers (Orlando, Vegas, etc.), I don't see leisure travel helping JAX at all when it comes to longer distance flights - Las Vegas being an exception.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 10, 2018, 09:37:45 PM
^This is true! As someone who has taken over 5 late notice flights this year, I can't rely on 2 or 4 day a week service. So, I end up flying American, Delta, or SW.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on May 10, 2018, 09:48:47 PM
I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Adam White on May 11, 2018, 05:06:03 AM
A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/yYXEQeTsoh2rS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on May 11, 2018, 05:59:38 AM

Disagree - the thing that drives higher fares and more profitable routes that stick around are the business travelers, not the leisure ones. You might see an Allegiant or a Frontier try a JAX-California route, but I doubt it succeeds. With the major carriers, you get a fair number of people either paying for First Class, or willing to pay $750+ to fly Coach to California on short notice. Those people are less than 50% of the plane, but significantly more than 50% of the revenue of the flight. That is what keeps a flight going day in and day out. Business travelers also can't rely on a 2 or 4 day a week service - I'm never going to move my flight a day to take advantage of a nonstop.

While the major leisure destinations might be able to sustain on tons of leisure travelers (Orlando, Vegas, etc.), I don't see leisure travel helping JAX at all when it comes to longer distance flights - Las Vegas being an exception.

Exactly. Airlines care about biz pax, not leisure travelers. There´s a reason leisure destinations always lag behind biz destinations when it comes to convenience flights. (It´s why Barcelona has 1/10th the flights Madrid does, despite having 32x the yearly passengers).

Airlines only care about first and biz class pax, and those pax willing to pay flex rates (ie, higher rates) on the cheap seats. So where a leisure traveler buys the cheapest available coach ticket at 250 a pop, a biz traveler may 750 for the same ticket solely because it´s flexible.

Leisure travelers have almost no clout when it comes to deciding routes, unfortunately...at least when we´re talking about DL/AA/UA (vs. the ULCCs).
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 11, 2018, 10:25:07 AM
I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

That's a fair perspective. From a business traveler's perspective, the non-stops can make a difference. I don't ever see one from JAX to Grand Rapids, but I get your point. As a Delta loyalist, that's usually what I end up doing - flight to ATL then I generally have decent availability to most places. However, a non-stop can however make the difference between spending 1-2 nights versus possibly not spending a night at all.

I'm a little biased, but from my perspective I'd love Delta to add Salt Lake City (their main western hub, because some smaller places out west are now two stop itineraries from here), and I'd love another crack at LAX, especially now that Delta has and is continuing to expand there, and would give better availability for Asia flights with Delta.

Unfortunately, I think we're a ways off from a Europe flight. If it happened, it would likely be British Airways or Virgin Atlantic to London, as JAX is a strong place for both American (BA Partner) and Delta (who owns 49% of Virgin). I think Frankfurt, despite the Deutsche Bank thing is going to be very hard. Deutsche is not doing well, and Lufthansa's partner is United, which doesn't have a great presence here.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on May 11, 2018, 03:40:13 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

I've said it before, so forgive my redundancy: I would guarantee that less than 30% of Americans know where the TPC is played.  They can name Sawgrass, they might even know Ponte Vedra Beach, but if you asked them what airport you'd fly into to get there, you'd get a blank stare.  For the life of me, I don't know why the Duval CVB has failed to capitalize on making Jacksonville the ultimate golf destination.  THAT'S where the tourism is going to be for this area: beaches and golf.  We don't need to compete with the kiddie playland that is Orlando and we will never have the cool of Miami Beach. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 11, 2018, 04:00:38 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 11, 2018, 06:24:14 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on May 11, 2018, 09:43:26 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on May 11, 2018, 09:45:07 PM
I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 10:29:30 AM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 

I think you're missing my point here. Yes, there are more leisure travelers than business travelers (I'd like to see the source on your numbers because the numbers I've seen aren't nearly that extreme, but yes - there are more leisure travelers than business travelers).

Orlando is sort of the extreme example. I do acknowledge that if something anywhere near Disney-size opened in Jacksonville we'd see a huge expansion at JAX. Further, if load factors were overly high because of leisure growth then yes, some carrier would either expand a route or add one. Wasn't really the point I was making.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I have no issue with flying Alaska or JetBlue (or any airline other than allegiant for that matter). Alaska really isn't a LCC, they were just more of a regional airline, but with the Virgin America acquisition they will be either #5 or #6 in america with JetBlue being the other one. JetBlue also isn't a LCC in the truest sense, but more of a regional carrier as well. With their Mint service they truly are competing against the big boys on those routes. For those based at a JetBlue Hub (BOS/JFK/FLL), they are a GREAT option.

Certainly, any carrier adding flights to JAX is a good thing, even if twice a week and seasonal. It isn't bad, so long as the airport authority grants them space commensurate with the flight frequency. In other words, don't give preferential gate access to a carrier for a route like that, because then another carrier might be hamstrung to add capacity/another route.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route. It could have been something having to do with how the plane was utilized before/after the flight; maybe something didn't line up well and they were getting killed on that, and JAX-San Juan was the "innocent bystander in that".

Quote from: Snaketoz
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

There's a few things I'll touch on here:

 - Yes, many businesses have access to private planes. Very few own it themselves, because it's easier to work with someone else for upkeep/maintenance/etc. but I get your point. My company actually has their own plane. Now, I've never been in it and maybe never will. That's not because it isn't offered. The aircraft is flown based on Ownership/Executive need, so if there are empty seats (I want to say it holds 8) then they will email out the route it's flying and if you have a need to go there, then you can get a seat. The issue is our company has about 3,000 people, and about 100 (including me) have a legit need to travel on a frequent basis. I'm not based at our Mothership, so for me to have a need to travel somewhere where the plane happens to be going (at the exact times I need to be there mind you), Then it might make sense to drive 3 hours to our headquarters and then 3 hours home when I get back to take the flight. My point is a VERY small percentage of overall business travel is done on private planes compared to commercial. Most companies won't pay for even First Class unless it's an executive traveling (or if over a pond they may pay for Long Haul Business which is usually quite nice).

Fundamentally, I actually agree with much of your post. Yes, LCCs have a business model that works - if they didn't then they'd be out of business.  Southwest has made some very good business decisions that helped them a TON over the years (the biggest being their fuel hedges in the 2000s and their long term decision to fly one single aircraft - makes maintenance and scheduling MUCH easier.

I'd also agree that the industry hasn't been friendly overall to JAX. Through the airline consolidation, JAX did end up losing out on some routes - some of which were decisions outside of JAX. We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

One thing you said which I question is that you're implying that Nonstop is always better than a Connection, which most frequent business travelers may question (depending on the routing and length of a connection obviously). For me, I will stick with Delta 99% of the time, even to markets like Chicago and DFW where JAX has nonstops. Personally, I do it for the miles - I'm away from home a bit, which can suck, but having the miles to be able to take my family on vacation softens the blow. Also, while at the time allegiant had a non-stop from JAX-New Orleans, I took Delta as allegiant's maintenance record scared the He11 out of me. Also, the flight times didn't line up and I'd have to spend an extra night to boot. I'm sure you know that flight times are a huge component of a business traveler's decision. When I went to Boston a couple months ago, I took the non-stop on Delta up, but had to connect on the way down. The trip back was only offered as a non-stop as a 6AM departure. I had a morning meeting, so either I spent another night or I connected on the way home - easy decision.

It's not that I don't think Leisure Routes aren't good for JAX. I just question whether or not they end up sticking around for the long term, or do they change as the wind blows. The fact is, the business routes do have a higher PRASM than leisure routes - that can't really be disputed. Yes, increasing the tourism base will help, but in the end Business Traveler and their wallets are going to be preferred.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on May 14, 2018, 12:57:49 PM
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 02:02:42 PM
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.

That originated over time:

 - Northwest Airlines and KLM (The Dutch Airline - KLM stands for something ridiculously long in Dutch) had an alliance back in the late 1980's, and actually considered Schiphol Airport (Amsterdam's airport) a hub.
 - In 2004 KLM and Air France Merged
 - In 2009-ish Northwest and Delta Merged

There's also some strategy there. The four largest airports in Europe are Heathrow in London, deGaulle in Paris, Schiphol in Amsterdam, and Frankfurt. Through their Joint Venture with Air France/KLM, Delta now can consider the #2 and #3 airports in Europe as Hubs and has a significant network of flights that Delta can ticket as a 1 or 2 stop itinerary. That's pretty powerful. They also have a Joint Venture and own 49% of Virgin Atlantic (with Sir Richard's company owning 51%). While not nearly as strong as the OneWorld alliance in London (which is AA and British Airways), that's still a significant presence.

But, all of that aside you're right in your comment. There is some significant risk with Air France especially right now. There is a LOT of labor unrest with Air France that I'm sure Delta wants resolved sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:31:12 PM
Right on point, Steve.

For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:35:48 PM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 03:18:51 PM
For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

Obviously this all anecdotal, but if that was the pricing then that's pretty low. JAX-San Juan is about 1,290 miles flown through the air (each way). Let's say it was $50 Each Way. That works out to under $0.04/mile, WAY off what most airlines want.

As an example (and this was a VERY fast search), pricing Allegiant from Orlando to Fargo, North Dakota which is 1,510 miles through the air each way. The cheapest I can find going far out is $117 each way, or just under $0.08/mile.

For context, for each Elite Status tier of Delta's SkyMiles program, you have to qualify not only on miles (or segments) flown but also on Spend. Their Spend tiers are calculated based on $0.12/mile. In other words, if you don't average $0.12/mile you actually won't get status based on your flights in a year. With some exceptions, the only people that realistically do this are business travelers, because inevitably they book a trip either to some remote destination, they book something from time to time less than a week out, or they're booking First/Business Class.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2018, 03:19:52 PM
We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)

Touche....forgot about Allegiant's route.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 14, 2018, 06:07:59 PM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 15, 2018, 11:04:44 AM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Not sure anyone attacked. Disagreed, perhaps, but not attacked. I was curious your source because the stats that I've heard are about 50% leisure, 40% business, and 10% other (funerals, business/leisure mix, etc.). Those percentages and your numbers don't jive.

Either way, I never said that business was more people than leisure. Only that business passengers bring in more money than leisure for the large airlines.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on May 17, 2018, 04:02:04 AM
Business flyers drive the legacy carriers, period.

Source: me, after working in the travel business for the past 5 plus years.

I work with, and talk to, decision makers at airlines ranging from Delta to Korean, Emirates to United. This isn´t bragging - just facts.

Of course, every model is different. Yeah, ULCCs and LCCs tend to rely more on leisure. And yeah, the ME3 don´t really care as long as they´re expanding their route network and gaining market share.

But DL/UA/AA makes route decisions - most of the time -based on those flying in the ´front of the plane´, especially with regards to domestic routes.

You´ll ALWAYS find exceptions to the rule - why else add flights to Augusta during the Masters. And of course places like MCO are exceptions too.

I´m just speaking from experience, and using facts ´from the horse´s mouths´.....
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: chipwich on May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 17, 2018, 09:51:57 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)
Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 17, 2018, 10:31:34 PM
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 17, 2018, 10:52:18 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)
Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.

I really hope that SW adds some additional routes soon. Unless you are flying to Atlanta, most SW flights out of Jax aren't much of a deal.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 18, 2018, 07:43:31 AM
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 22, 2018, 09:38:24 AM
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/22/jacksonville-airport-soars-in-april.html
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 22, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 22, 2018, 10:55:34 AM
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/22/jacksonville-airport-soars-in-april.html

I saw that.....definitely a positive (and I don't think any of the routes that Frontier recently announced have started yet).
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on May 22, 2018, 11:51:26 AM
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.
I'm definitely not agitated, only posting a link to a bizjournal piece this morning.  I don't know how you have "trouble following my overall message".  My message is the message I have gotten from JAA board members in the past, and things I've heard from family members in the know.  As for the getting treated unfairly, Jacksonville has a storied past in that department.  In air routes, sports, and much more.  I think you do have trouble following my message.  You say I "complained" about Frontier's new flights.  I think you  might mean #32 where I said, "It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday."  Is that really complaining?  I have no problems with you posts.  I sometimes get a bit irritated with some on here (not you) who always seem to only post arguments to other's posts and who always want attributions to other's posts, but never give any for theirs.  If they don't like your post, they want a source.  If you give a source, they don't like the source.  PM, you are alright with me.  I've always been very interested in JAX aviation and I appreciate you starting this thread. Thanks!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on May 22, 2018, 01:55:22 PM
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Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM
I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

 - When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

 - Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

 - I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

 - I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

 - Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: TimmyB on May 23, 2018, 01:32:12 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 23, 2018, 03:23:59 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

Other than the RJs, not too many planes with 3-2 seating other than the 100 year old MD-88/MD-90 jets that AA and Delta still has bouncing around.

(not counting widebody 767 and A330 birds that have a 2 seat section but rarely see JAX)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

It's been so long since I've posted...

Well I've been returning to FL from Northern CA (SF) more frequently these days to be closer to family, so my opinion on flying these particular [limited] transcon routes has developed.  I now regularly fly out of 4 FL airports:

JIA (always a connection so my selection of flight options varies widely now that I focus less on building and using mileage on 1-2 airlines, Delta which I predominantly used for many years flying for work on long haul flights whereby I almost exclusively flew business class, and United, which is hubbed at SFO, now I use a combo of checking deals with those airlines to seeing what Hopper 3rd party travel app can get me, and I've used Hopper to fly to and from JIA half a dozen times in the last 1-1.5 years now)

MCO (Orlando) - often it's just cheaper and has a direct non-stop flight, one of the only non-stops to the Bay Area, namely SFO or Oakland, in the state.  Having flown into Orlando and driven up on a couple occasions, I cannot recall whether it's a United flight, which I'm sure it is by chance, or a random Delta non-stop to non-traditional non-business destination, of which SFO has a few Delta routes like so.

Tampa - I have a sibling who lives here now, and Tampa just opened its first and only non-stop to SFO, a first in the morning with limited days running United flight, which has so far been inconvenient to me, leaving me to connect from there no differently as I would from JIA.

MIA - using Hopper, sometimes, actually on multiple occasions, the fastest and essentially tied with most of the numerous other connecting options for affordability is a two-stop American connection with the first stop being in MIA, and a second in Dallas.

So just the need to fly to FL at all from the Bay Area puts me on a lot of planes and in a lot of airports.  There really isn't much of a link between Bay Area and FL to speak of.  Hardly a business link, hardly a leisure link, hardly a transplant travel need as I exhibit in exceeding rarity as demonstrated by flight options, and as big of a hub for Asia travel as SFO is, it's not big enough or perhaps unique enough with LA and even some routes being covered by NYC/Newark and Houston/Dallas falling short of producing overall better and more numerous options for people like myself.

That being said, here are my observations, almost entirely qualitative and unsubstantiated by fact-checking, just to be sure and upfront.

FL as an entire state is either not viewed by airlines as a business-class paying business-traveler oriented state or just does not produce much business travel.  Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

The only flights I have *ever* taken into FL on a plane that was of a more obvious business-class pedigree, one in which the plane was at least A320/737 size and with all the modern features I'm accustomed to on many of my flights to destinations not in FL (typically to other cities seen as business destinations) and with a flight staff with obvious years in service and an undisputably "normal" to plus-sized business class with proper business class amenities and features for 2018 service is the MIA-DFW leg I take on occasion as part of my 3-leg American Airlines option to fly into or out of Jax.

I have never personally been on a flight into or out of JIA, MCO, or TPA that struck me as a flight deemed by the airline operating it (which in two out of three of these cases is not even the main airline that has its flag painted on it, it's often operated by a regional operator), as being valuable to its business travelers.

And the only non-stop I've ever flown into and out of FL from CA, that being into Orlando, which I might add I've ironically flown "on business" in business class as well as leisurely in a way to get to Jax, is hardly a business flight even if it tried.

Screaming kids and babies, lots of overweight people and rare fliers, families trying to stick together like glue in impossible situations, and a small, limited business class with amenities like "free movies" and overly reclining seats that were acceptable for transcon flights for only brief moment as I first started making these flights in 2010/2011 before Delta, the first big airline to merge and see benefits, overhauled all of its ttanscon flights in all the destinations I was flying to, to include lay-flats in business and screens in the backs of every seat (something to this day that does not exist in the non-updated non-stops between SFO and MCO).

Now, take what you will of the meaning of all of this but I seriously question the importance of business travel to FL from any destination or it would be reflected long ago already in its planes.  I've flown routes to NYC and DC and Boston and Chicago to JIA and business class was limited in size and in normal business class features and the planes were often regionals, still. My experience with flights out of Tampa and Orlando are similar.  Only in Miami have I witnessed or seen evidence otherwise for substantial business travel.

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

These are not the Southwest versions, and I'll be honest, I never question flying or get nervous about it unless I'm flying Southwest.  Sadly that's the best option for me to fly to OC or San Diego, but the sight of obvious maintenance oversights, like peeling paint, combined with the knowledge that shorter regional routes are flown by less experienced pilots, combined with the two-punch effect of paying the same as a larger airline but receiving no amenities and greatly reduced service throws me off kilter.

I can appreciate the big old leather sink in your chair seats that some of the MD-88s or smaller regional jets offer on flights into Jax, and I'm usually passed out before the plane even takes off, as a rule, so even on transcon flights with free movies for all (those are the flights from SF to any major city NOT in FL, hehe), I don't need the movies bc I'll be out like a light.  But realistically, the comforts of air travel and the planes have GREATLY improved just in the past decade let alone my lifetime (I remember flying United 727s out of Jax as a kid to visit family in Chicago, and Continental DC-10s to Newark to board A330 SAS flights, I believe none of those planes are in commercial service anywhere anymore).

But it's clear to me that airlines don't value FL as a whole so much, and so that's why you get a limited picture of flying if flying predominately into and out of that state.  There does NOT seem to be as much business travel and business travel implies corporations paying, hence why business class tickets are for exponentially more than economy class tickets and that difference isn't only covering a glass or two of Wente Estate wine and a meal with better seating, it truly is how flights become profitable and make up the difference.

If you find airlines including nicer/bigger, updated planes on routes with substantial business classes, then the effect of having enough people/companies paying for this lifts the experience of every traveler on that route up dramatically.

When you see big business hubs and no coincidence airline hubs such as Atl, DFW, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, DC, Chicago, Denver, etc etc pulling in most of the business and leaving scraps for other cities, I think it will be a slow steady grind for airports such as JIA to start reeling in subsequent business travel that will bring noticeable upgrades to all travelers.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on May 23, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
Welcome back simms. People have been asking where you had gone.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 23, 2018, 06:49:23 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on May 24, 2018, 04:17:25 AM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

In my experience, and using the anecdotal experience of clients who fly on a daily basis, it´s exceptionally easy to get upgraded on the way to the hub - those 45 min jumper flights, given the lack of people with status in a place like JAX. That said - what´s your upgrade percentage flying not TO the hub, but ex-hub? Try getting upgraded flying ATL to Tokyo, or hell, MIA to NYC. Slim to none...fat chance at best.

In other news, I still hate the living daylight out of Delta  ;D
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on May 24, 2018, 04:20:50 AM
I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

 - When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

 - Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

 - I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

 - I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

 - Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.

In other words, they are trying to mimic the exact business model of the typical European ULCC, aka EasyJet, Vueling, RyanAir, etc (flying A320s only, stacking routes, minimizing time on the ground, hoping to god for no delays, etc).

Slightly unrelated, but I do wish the US gave consumers the same protections Europeans get for flight f-ups that are the fault of the airline. Was just delayed 2 hours flying Zurich to Barcelona on a ULCC (couldn´t pass up the 20 dollar tickets). So what happens next? We got 600 EUR in the mail!  8) I´d be more willing to fly airlines like Frontier in the States if I had these protections..

Totally unrelated: anyone fly Dubai Orlando (or reverse) on Emirates yet? I know the demand wasn´t strong enough to have the A380 fly it (bye bye shower-in-the-sky), and I think I read the flight is no longer daily, but this thing still operates right? On a 777?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 24, 2018, 12:00:50 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

Things have changed dramatically in a couple years. Delta has done an amazing job of better monitizig the FC Cabin. Big initiative of theirs....and coincidentally their profits of late have been off the charts.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 24, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

In my experience, and using the anecdotal experience of clients who fly on a daily basis, it´s exceptionally easy to get upgraded on the way to the hub - those 45 min jumper flights, given the lack of people with status in a place like JAX. That said - what´s your upgrade percentage flying not TO the hub, but ex-hub? Try getting upgraded flying ATL to Tokyo, or hell, MIA to NYC. Slim to none...fat chance at best.

In other news, I still hate the living daylight out of Delta  ;D

Excluding JAX-ATL or the inverse, my upgrade percentage was about 85% overall in 2017 as a Diamond, and that included transcons. This year as a Platinum it’s about 50/50.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on July 11, 2018, 07:02:15 AM
New non-stop Southwest flight to Dallas starting in January.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/business-in-brief-new-flights-to-dallas-jaa-wins-award

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on July 11, 2018, 12:03:59 PM
Thanks, although not much info there. So they are increasing their number of flights? There was already service between the two airports prior, although it may have just been several days a week and/or seasonal.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on August 09, 2018, 09:22:35 AM
New lounge coming to Jax.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/06/new-vip-lounge-coming-to-a-first-coast-airport.html
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on August 10, 2018, 04:46:20 AM
New lounge coming to Jax.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/06/new-vip-lounge-coming-to-a-first-coast-airport.html

Can’t read the article. Which lounge?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2018, 08:18:47 AM
Generic Lounge associated with Priority Pass. Surprised AA wouldn’t consider an Admiral’s Club.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on August 10, 2018, 08:46:32 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: KenFSU on August 10, 2018, 09:38:19 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

There have been some discussions with British Airways as recently as yesterday about a direct route.

They're looking to branch out into some smaller airports, and just added Nashville earlier this summer.

British Airways' concern is less about filling the Jacksonville-to-London flights, and more about Jacksonville not being a strong enough brand as a city to fill the London-to-Jacksonville flights.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on August 10, 2018, 10:41:12 AM
Anyone have any idea how the JAX-YYZ Air Canada route has been doing? I took it last July and it was ok iirc.

Re: lounge, it sounds pretty generic but it's a start. Since our move I seldom fly out of Jax but it is still really nice to see the progress.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on August 10, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

There have been some discussions with British Airways as recently as yesterday about a direct route.

They're looking to branch out into some smaller airports, and just added Nashville earlier this summer.

British Airways' concern is less about filling the Jacksonville-to-London flights, and more about Jacksonville not being a strong enough brand as a city to fill the London-to-Jacksonville flights.


Any leverage using "Medical destination" from UK/Europe? I know that it would not fill planes, but it could help sell the area.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on August 11, 2018, 08:07:28 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

This was my thought as well. I would be ecstatic for a direct flight to London. I would fly this route multiple times per year.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on September 19, 2018, 10:19:22 AM
Spirit Airlines is coming to JAX...  Daily flights to O'Hare & Detroit starting 12/20.

https://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/jet-setting-to-jax-spirit-airlines-expands-florida-footprint-with-ultralow-fares-to-jacksonville-20180919-00567
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on September 19, 2018, 11:09:39 AM
Great news! I generally have clients combine/pro day training in Chicago. Hopefully, Spirit will add some direct flights to New Orleans soon.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 19, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
Just consolidating comments to my thread  ;D

They're replacing Silver.

I think I'll take Spirit over Silver. Not that I think the customer experience is much better at all, but Spirit at least has the capacity to ramp up operations if they see opportunity, and they have a robust international network. Silver is small potatoes with just a dozen or so destinations almost entirely in FL and the Bahamas. Now we have all the major ULCC, with Allegiant and Frontier already building sizable inroads at JIA.

While both Florida-based airlines, their routes won't overlap. Spirit flew to Tampa with seasonal flights to Marsh Harbour. Spirit will fly daily to Chicago and Detroit.

Bummed to lose an "international" flight, but Spirit may be able to eventually add those and more if it makes sense. They'll be competing with AA, United and Frontier for the Chicago leg. Detroit was previously only serviced by Delta, I've purchased that flight three times before and usually not a good fare, so this should definitely be beneficial to the consumer.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: itsfantastic1 on September 19, 2018, 02:25:11 PM
I liked Silver when they were competitive in pricing at JAX to other domestic carriers and went non-stop to Florida locations that were long to drive to (Orlando, Tampa, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale). I remember years ago having $99 flights to FLL. The only down side was being on a prop plane is a much different expirence than a jet plane, but for that price and distance wasn't a big deal.

Recently though to go to any other location besides Tampa required way too many layovers in locations that weren't even in the direction of my destination that I found it wasn't worth it to fly Silver. I think Frontier has taken my prefered low-cost spot. Only really ever flew Spirit once out of Orlando so not much expirence with them yet.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2018, 02:35:47 PM
I just took Spirit from FLL to New Orleans last week for $78 roundtrip. Since I was in New Orleans for only three days, I packed my clothes in a backpack to avoid paying carry-on bag fees. As long as it's a short trip and you pack light, they're a good deal.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: itsfantastic1 on September 19, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 19, 2018, 04:55:23 PM
I just took Spirit from FLL to New Orleans last week for $78 roundtrip. Since I was in New Orleans for only three days, I packed my clothes in a backpack to avoid paying carry-on bag fees. As long as it's a short trip and you pack light, they're a good deal.

My last experience on Spirit was not great but that was my fault (with a splash of non-compassion from Spirit but hey that's part of the deal doing business with ULCCs). Anyway, my last ULCC experience was Frontier a month ago and that went very well. I even bought a special bag for it since I anticipate using ULCCs and Basic Economy on the legacy carriers plenty of times in the future.

I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)

Wow. Great news if true and yes, surprising.

Quote
Construction is expected to begin within the next three years.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on September 20, 2018, 08:21:19 AM
I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)

The parking thing surprises me the least. I’d park in the garage if it were available, but every time I show up (which is about every other week) I’m not confident that I won’t be stuck on the roof of the garage. No point in parking there.

Not sure how they’re going to expand the TSA checkpoints, except by getting rid of the small food court pre-Security.

The Concourse B thing surprises me the most. All of the recent expansion doesn’t really necessitate a bunch of gates. For example, for all of those flights Frontier added, they are all a couple times a week-based on their schedule they should be able to service the schedule with 1 gate. Spirit shouldn’t even need a dedicated gate with their two flights. Unless one of the majors wants to expand (which is possible-on busy days Delta does make efficient use of their four gates.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on September 23, 2018, 09:21:49 AM
The parking is definitely becoming an issue. There hasn’t been any surface packing available on my last few trips. I flew out yesterday and had to park on the 4th floor.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxVision on September 24, 2018, 11:21:32 AM
Good to hear JIA is looking into speeding up the concourse B, TSA and parking expansion. I fly regularly and have TSA pre check so the check point isn't that hard for me but JIA does need to expand TSA as those lines get congested regularly now. Even if the concourse B doesn't ever take shape the parking and TSA alone would be a great addition.

This airport is always ranked and talked highly among other airports and rightfully so, it is quick and easy to get in and out of, baggage is usually on time and smooth at least for Delta and compared to other Medium airports it is fairly high tech and clean.

If they do actually expand into concourse B it would be a Delta only concourse I assume. Jax has the largest Delta Medallion base in the country with flights all day so I could see a small new concourse with a new sky lounge built just for Delta.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on September 24, 2018, 01:56:23 PM
Good to hear JIA is looking into speeding up the concourse B, TSA and parking expansion. I fly regularly and have TSA pre check so the check point isn't that hard for me but JIA does need to expand TSA as those lines get congested regularly now. Even if the concourse B doesn't ever take shape the parking and TSA alone would be a great addition.

This airport is always ranked and talked highly among other airports and rightfully so, it is quick and easy to get in and out of, baggage is usually on time and smooth at least for Delta and compared to other Medium airports it is fairly high tech and clean.

If they do actually expand into concourse B it would be a Delta only concourse I assume. Jax has the largest Delta Medallion base in the country with flights all day so I could see a small new concourse with a new sky lounge built just for Delta.

I'd say Delta, American, or Southwest. All have about the same spread of passengers (though Delta is my preferred too). The first phase of Concourse B shows 6 gates based on the airport master plan. I know Delta uses 4, and I believe Southwest and AA use 4 as well (so someone might take 6 to get their own area.

The other issue with Delta taking it (though I'd assume this could be worked out) is the current lounge is adjacent to A. Generally Delta (or any airline) would like their lounge near their gates.

I'd be curious who the biggest is in terms of revenue. Southwest is the biggest in terms of seats, and Delta was the biggest in terms of revenue, but that was before the US Airways-AA Merger.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on October 19, 2018, 01:30:02 PM
I see that Charleston just got a 2x/week British Airways direct...

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/charleston-airport-to-launch-nonstop-flights-to-london/article_4edaa636-c009-11e8-b80c-27f9947a444b.html

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on October 19, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
I see that Charleston just got a 2x/week British Airways direct...

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/charleston-airport-to-launch-nonstop-flights-to-london/article_4edaa636-c009-11e8-b80c-27f9947a444b.html

Austin and New Orleans did as well.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2018, 04:21:09 PM
Austin and New Orleans didn't surprise me. Austin has over 2M in the metro and has a major research university. New Orleans is a MUCH larger tourism city than Jacksonville.

Charleston on the other hand REALLY surprised me. I've been trying to see if the State of South Carolina threw money at BA to try the route. Pretty crazy since outside of Alaska Airlines' route to SEA, CHS doesn't have a route west of the Rockies yet has a London route.

Given that CHS is the largest airport in SC, that could be the case (Tampa just did that with Delta for an AMS route.)

I think it's unlikely that the State of Florida throws incentives at a airline for a route. Florida has the 12th and 14th busiest airports in the US. If incentives come, COJ will have to cough up.

Personally, I'd be fine with service west of the Rockies. We need to get on that.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on October 19, 2018, 09:15:33 PM
New Orleans and Austin both make a lot of sense. The Charleston-LHR route shocks me but makes me hopeful for a JAX-LGW route soon.

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on October 20, 2018, 09:55:02 AM
I´d be shocked if this flight lasts...

Wonder if it has something to do with the fact they're trying to make money vs. taking delivery of empty planes from SCs Boeing plant. Its a stretch, but...
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on October 20, 2018, 02:33:56 PM
I´d be shocked if this flight lasts...

Wonder if it has something to do with the fact they're trying to make money vs. taking delivery of empty planes from SCs Boeing plant. Its a stretch, but...

I agree that it's questionable how viable a route life this twice a week would last but it's no big surprise why they wouldn't consider a transatlantic flight to the region. It has a thriving economy with a regional population that's close to Jacksonville's metro population some 25 years ago. Charleston's emerging food and restaurant culture has certainly drawn praise nationally but it's history of supporting arts (like the yearly Spoleto festival) has been noted internationally for years. And not only could Charleston draw international visitors with their rich history, but combine that with the other historical sites in the region plus more affordable vacation spots from Savannah to Myrtle Beach with similar Florida-style weather makes the UK and Europe a great potentially untapped market to draw from - particularly to what could arguably be one of the most hassle-free international airports in North America.

I think part of the issue why many of us wonder why Jacksonville doesn't push for more international flights has to do with the insular nature of many people who travel. It must shock so many people all over the world how many Americans of substantial financial means do not have current passports. Maybe that mindset is quickly changing in Jacksonville but given how far behind we are in attracting more international investment and tourism it becomes more clear how a city such as Charleston could lap us in this regard.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: bl8jaxnative on October 20, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
... the insular nature of many people who travel.

People who are traveling by their very nature of choosing to travel are the opposite of insular. 

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on October 22, 2018, 11:34:34 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Adam White on October 22, 2018, 11:46:21 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on October 22, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on October 22, 2018, 12:29:53 PM
https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/ (https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/)
"As part of the recruitment effort, the state Commerce Department allocated $1.3 million toward costs associated with the airline’s launch in Charleston."

https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london (https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london)
"The Charleston International Airport is investing approximately $9 million to expand their kitchen, customs, and tarmac operations to support this and other long-haul destinations."

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on October 22, 2018, 12:51:08 PM
https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/ (https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/)
"As part of the recruitment effort, the state Commerce Department allocated $1.3 million toward costs associated with the airline’s launch in Charleston."

https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london (https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london)
"The Charleston International Airport is investing approximately $9 million to expand their kitchen, customs, and tarmac operations to support this and other long-haul destinations."



Well....that's interesting but to Vic's point, is not a direct route subsidy. Sounds like they're absorbing costs associated with BAs entry to the market. That's likely the $1.3M. The $9M is infrastructure, and the positive for the CHS folks is that this investment into their airport will survive even if BA decides to end the service. For example, while JAX has a Customs/Federal Inspection Station at the airport (entry is through gate C5), it would likely have to be expanded if it was regularly needed on a scheduled route.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on October 22, 2018, 09:45:59 PM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.

From what I can see, the smallest current markets served by BA transatlantic is New Orleans. Ottawa and Calgary are the smallest in Canada, and depending on what metrics you use might be considered smaller than NO? Not sure. But yeah Charleston is a good bit smaller than those.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Gunnar on October 23, 2018, 04:27:46 AM
Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Adam White on October 23, 2018, 05:44:39 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.
 

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.

From what I can see, the smallest current markets served by BA transatlantic is New Orleans. Ottawa and Calgary are the smallest in Canada, and depending on what metrics you use might be considered smaller than NO? Not sure. But yeah Charleston is a good bit smaller than those.

Sorry - my bad. Wasn't thinking about direct flights. Makes sense.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on October 23, 2018, 11:08:28 AM
Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.

CHS isn't a hub (never has been, even in the older days). Maybe you're thinking of Charlotte?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Adam White on October 23, 2018, 11:14:37 AM
Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.

CHS isn't a hub (never has been, even in the older days). Maybe you're thinking of Charlotte?

In my recollection, Charleston is a hub of oppressive heat and humidity.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: blizz01 on October 24, 2018, 10:49:40 PM
Interesting recollection of Charleston. I recall flying from Frankfurt to Charleston direct on World Airways circa 1984.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on October 25, 2018, 03:14:56 AM
Interesting recollection of Charleston. I recall flying from Frankfurt to Charleston direct on World Airways circa 1984.

According to the Mayor of Charleston, and the Charleston Airport Authority, this new British Airways flight will be the first scheduled transatlantic flight to operate from Charleston in the city/airport´s history.

That said - there was a time when the US airforce used CHS as a bit of a ´hub´, flying soldiers back between WW2 and the Korean War. But that was strictly for military use, not civilian. (Maybe they were doing this into the 80s and 90s as well, not sure.)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: blizz01 on October 25, 2018, 10:34:19 AM
Yeah - I think you nailed it.  My family was returning from Rhein Main Air Force Base; I bet we flew into Charleston AFB.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on October 25, 2018, 12:13:42 PM
Louisville just got American Airlines nonstop service to LAX. I'm a little jealous that's the route I want added the most.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JAX_ASD on October 31, 2018, 07:58:40 AM
Looks like the Louisville - LAX route came with about $3 million in incentives: https://www.courier-journal.com/story/travel/2018/10/25/american-airlines-adds-nonstop-flight-louisville-lax-los-angeles/1758859002/
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on November 06, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa’s airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it’s a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don’t know the guy and he could be a rock star.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on November 06, 2018, 01:43:32 PM
I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)
 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 02:19:40 PM
The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa’s airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it’s a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don’t know the guy and he could be a rock star.

Maybe Jax is looking to become a maintenance hub for someone.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 02:42:21 PM
I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)

Flying used to be a lot easier and way more enjoyable.  Prior to deregulation there were far more airlines with even more destinations.  The nice thing too was a ticket was good on any airline if they had space.  I remember flying from Oklahoma City to West Palm Beach many years ago and we got to the airport several hours early.  When we checked in at American Airline the agent told us there was a United flight that was boarding if we wanted to get our trip started 2 hours earlier.  We said yes and the American agent got us tickets on the United flight and away we went.  We just connected in Houston instead Dallas.

Even as recently as 10 years ago there were still lots of airlines compared to now.  TWA, America West, Northwest , US Air, Air South, Continental, AirTran, Value Jet, ATA, and countless others have been merged or went out of business.

Of course deregulation played a huge role but so did corporate greed, pilot strikes, air traffic controller strikes, and I'm sure abandoning the 55mph speed limit in 1994 even played a role.  Could you image driving to Tallahassee at a maximum speed of 55mph? It would take forever.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on November 06, 2018, 03:01:28 PM
The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa’s airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it’s a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don’t know the guy and he could be a rock star.

Maybe Jax is looking to become a maintenance hub for someone.

It could play well for Cecil, certainly. that would be the ideal place for a maintenance hub for us compared to JAX.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on November 06, 2018, 03:10:05 PM
I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)

Flying used to be a lot easier and way more enjoyable.  Prior to deregulation there were far more airlines with even more destinations.  The nice thing too was a ticket was good on any airline if they had space.  I remember flying from Oklahoma City to West Palm Beach many years ago and we got to the airport several hours early.  When we checked in at American Airline the agent told us there was a United flight that was boarding if we wanted to get our trip started 2 hours earlier.  We said yes and the American agent got us tickets on the United flight and away we went.  We just connected in Houston instead Dallas.

Even as recently as 10 years ago there were still lots of airlines compared to now.  TWA, America West, Northwest , US Air, Air South, Continental, AirTran, Value Jet, ATA, and countless others have been merged or went out of business.

Of course deregulation played a huge role but so did corporate greed, pilot strikes, air traffic controller strikes, and I'm sure abandoning the 55mph speed limit in 1994 even played a role.  Could you image driving to Tallahassee at a maximum speed of 55mph? It would take forever.

I think the low cost carriers and the overall market in general really created the pain. As an example: Right now a plane ticket from JAX to New York in January (60ish days out), and it's cold there. The cost is about $250. That same plane ticket in 1985? $250 or more. Air travel has come down in price dramatically, yet every other hard cost an airline incurs has increased many fold.

At one point in 2008 when oil was over $100/barrel, AA was losing $3M....a DAY. Obviously that was the extreme but the airlines in the 2000s (particularly the old legacy ones) had to figure out how to adapt. they adapted through market share and consolidation, which is why there's only three of the legacies left.

BTW, they still transfer passengers to other competitor airlines - it's called an Interline Agreement, and most airlines have it with one another (it also allows for baggage transfer between airlines). However today, they only usually use it in the case of Irregular Operations as an Interline Agreement is the least tied together method of airline cooperation.

If I had to take a guess at your scenario where you got moved to United.....I bet your original flight was oversold and that was an easy way to re-accommodate you without offering compensation. Obviously just a guess.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 08:59:57 PM
Inflation adjusted prices might be lower but airplanes today are orders of magnitude more efficient and hold more passengers, plus all the megers were supposed to drive down costs by eliminating overhead.  I don't think that last part worked.  Also, the closest direct flight from Jax is Atlanta.  You used to be able to fly to Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, Savannah, Tampa, and Orlando.  Gotta think the ease of car travel played a huge role there.

Of course, switching to hubs also played a role.

My United example was just an example.  I used to change airlines on a regular basis.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on November 07, 2018, 08:40:52 AM
Inflation adjusted prices might be lower but airplanes today are orders of magnitude more efficient and hold more passengers, plus all the megers were supposed to drive down costs by eliminating overhead.  I don't think that last part worked.  Also, the closest direct flight from Jax is Atlanta.  You used to be able to fly to Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, Savannah, Tampa, and Orlando.  Gotta think the ease of car travel played a huge role there.

Of course, switching to hubs also played a role.

My United example was just an example.  I used to change airlines on a regular basis.

In terms of close flights, I think that’s the result of security theatre that we all have to go through. It’s faster and cheaper to drive.

It’s not inflation adjusted pricing. It’s lower forgetting about inflation.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on November 12, 2018, 11:46:28 AM
Spirit has doubled their routes announcing JAX to Baltimore and Ft. Lauderdale starting on 2/14/2019.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 12, 2018, 02:54:49 PM
Awesome! Not new routes but always good to have competition. I used to fly BN often between JAX-BWI and the route to South FL is getting pretty crowded now which is nice to see. That should open up a lot of cheap South American and Caribbean destinations from Jax.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 12, 2018, 02:57:00 PM
Just took a look at the airport info and interesting to see that Spirit has announced the new routes before they've even begun service in Jax. Awesome...maybe they'll have even more by the time the first flight takes off lol.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on November 13, 2018, 08:49:48 AM
Spirit's got even more plans for JAX.  Apparently Kansas City, Vegas, NYC, and Dallas are in the works as well...

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/new-nonstop-flights-coming-to-jacksonville/871610814 (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/new-nonstop-flights-coming-to-jacksonville/871610814)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JAX_ASD on November 13, 2018, 09:05:11 AM
I think Action News' story is a bit misleading - The link they provide to Spirit's website does highlight destinations such as Las Vegas, New York, Dallas and Kansas City. However, if you click through and try and purchase a fare, it's apparent that these are all connecting flights through one of the four cities Spirit has already announced. 

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on January 08, 2019, 02:12:47 PM
Frontier introducing thrice weekly service between JAX and RDU.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2019/01/07/frontier-airlines-boston-flights-included-8-route-rdu-expansion/2507600002/
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 08, 2019, 02:23:15 PM
Nice! Raleigh has some good international routes.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on January 24, 2019, 01:53:04 PM
JAX broke their all time total passenger record in 2018 with almost 6.5 million total passengers, a 16% increase of almost 900,000 passengers. 

http://flyjacksonville.com/jetstream/jax-sets-new-record-for-annual-passenger-traffic/ (http://flyjacksonville.com/jetstream/jax-sets-new-record-for-annual-passenger-traffic/)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Tacachale on January 24, 2019, 03:15:15 PM
^Good news, and not surprising.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 24, 2019, 06:50:04 PM
Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on January 24, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?


Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Charles Hunter on January 24, 2019, 10:44:12 PM
Runway parallel to 14/32?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: thelakelander on January 24, 2019, 11:00:47 PM
Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.

I've never flown out of Jax during Christmas before until this season. It was the first time I've been to JAX where all of the parking was full, excluding the top level of the short term parking garage. Was running late to catch a flight, so I had to eat it and pay the higher daily rate since all the surface lots were full.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 25, 2019, 06:57:38 AM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

  • Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
  • A Mexican carrier
  • Direct flight to the west coast
  • CBP operating daily
  • Transatlantic flight
  • Concourse B open



I think the only of these we’ll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we’ll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 25, 2019, 06:58:52 AM
Runway parallel to 14/32?

Doubt it in the short term (less than 5 years). No real capacity need. If LHR can operate with 2 runways so can we.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 25, 2019, 09:44:56 AM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

  • Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
  • A Mexican carrier
  • Direct flight to the west coast
  • CBP operating daily
  • Transatlantic flight
  • Concourse B open



I think the only of these we’ll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we’ll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on January 25, 2019, 10:18:35 AM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

  • Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
  • A Mexican carrier
  • Direct flight to the west coast
  • CBP operating daily
  • Transatlantic flight
  • Concourse B open



I think the only of these we’ll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we’ll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.

Didn't I read somewhere (perhaps on this thread) that British Airways had expressed interest in flying into JAX?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on January 25, 2019, 10:52:13 AM
British Airways has expanded to lots of US cities - Austin, New Orleans, Charleston, and Nashville all have direct non-stop flights to London now.  Nashville is even getting upgrade to daily service.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 25, 2019, 11:11:34 AM
BA could do it I suppose. I don’t know that I see it, but I’m happy to be wrong.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 25, 2019, 11:12:02 AM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

  • Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
  • A Mexican carrier
  • Direct flight to the west coast
  • CBP operating daily
  • Transatlantic flight
  • Concourse B open



I think the only of these we’ll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we’ll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.

Didn't I read somewhere (perhaps on this thread) that British Airways had expressed interest in flying into JAX?


I think more accurately, JAX has expressed an interest in BA
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: tufsu1 on January 28, 2019, 09:44:06 PM
Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.

which is why they are now raising the price and paving the overflow lot
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 29, 2019, 12:13:45 AM
I think more accurately, JAX has expressed an interest in BA

Seems if British Airways was ever going to come to Jax anytime soon, they would have done so when Jax was the headquarters for so many years of their North American "Flytel" reservations center  ;D.  Instead, nada - not one mention of them ever thinking of flying here during all that time.

We did get their Concorde once though for a charter flight!  Jax to London, return by the QE 2, if I recall correctly.

BA Concorde at JIA in 1989:

(https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/infiniteflight/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6f0415b2aa94cadfb510adef1eed1d5c646e4f4f.jpeg)
(https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/infiniteflight/uploads/default/original/2X/4/45fcfe45d69a6bbf599dadd076eb7caac3bbfa9f.jpeg)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on February 24, 2019, 04:06:26 PM
As of 5/1/19 Air Canada is leaving JIA ending the nonstop Toronto flight. A bit of a setback after a string of new flights and record passenger growth.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxjags on February 24, 2019, 06:28:35 PM
Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on February 24, 2019, 06:47:15 PM
Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?

It’s been daily year round since 2017. I suppose it’s possible to come back as seasonal next year.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 24, 2019, 10:27:51 PM
I never got around to using that route but I rarely fly in the Star Alliance network.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 25, 2019, 08:54:37 AM
Yea, not a positive. Curious the reason for the change, though almost always Load Factors of the flights play into it.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on February 25, 2019, 09:27:08 AM
Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?

It’s been daily year round since 2017. I suppose it’s possible to come back as seasonal next year.

It wasn't daily in the beginning (I think twice a week?) but it may have increased to daily at some point.

Yea, not a positive. Curious the reason for the change, though almost always Load Factors of the flights play into it.

I only flew it once and iirc it was quite empty. Like 25-50%.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: pierre on March 01, 2019, 10:06:47 AM
This is good news
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Westside Guy on March 01, 2019, 10:57:44 AM
It seems the airport is doing very well. Kind of makes you wonder what Air Canada is thinking by cancelling Toronto.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2019, 11:12:47 AM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2019, 11:17:25 AM
It seems the airport is doing very well. Kind of makes you wonder what Air Canada is thinking by cancelling Toronto.

If the load factors are low, it may have just been a bad fit. I feel like this route was catered to business travelers (timing and anecdotal research on price wasn't exactly leisure friendly), but business travelers tend to stay loyal to their airline and air alliance. Florida is dominated by Delta/SkyTeam and American/OneWorld. Every US airline has a region of the country where they are weak: United is the Southeast, Delta is Texas and bordering states, and American is the Pacific Northwest.

Delta is going after their weakness with a massive expansion in Austin, American is tightening their relationship with Alaska (based at SeaTac), but I can't figure out what United is doing int he southeast.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 12:54:55 PM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.

I'm reading it to state that they want Concourse B to be in place (operational, perhaps) by Dec 2022.  I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: itsfantastic1 on March 01, 2019, 01:16:27 PM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.

I'm reading it to state that they want Concourse B to be in place (operational, perhaps) by Dec 2022.  I could be wrong though.

That's how I read it too.. "The solicitation package says Concourse B will need to be in place by Dec. 16, 2022".
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: thelakelander on March 01, 2019, 02:16:11 PM
Yeah, seems like they want it open by end of 2022. That's pretty quick.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 01, 2019, 03:44:39 PM
Yep, I'm a clown - misread it! They've had drawings done already for it, but I don't know how detailed the existing plans are. Perhaps they can just dust them off?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: itsfantastic1 on March 01, 2019, 05:49:09 PM
What's interesting is you mentioned United lacking a Southeast presence/strategy.

I wonder if JAX could make its longer term expansion plans part of trying to lure a United hub status. We're one of the few moderately size airport left in the SE without hub status, we'd be a short haul from major airports like Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte and their other hub in Houston. Plus Oscar Munoz CEO was a CSX guy...

It'd be interesting to see if United tries to compete in the SE with other airlines hubs or goes a different route of making a smaller SE airport "theirs."

Ultimately I don't think our numbers support it currently, but it'd be interesting none the less.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on March 02, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
Also interesting from the article:

Quote
According to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville’s Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he’s also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

“It’s a big investment for an airline,” VanLoh said. “Many times, it takes several years.”
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on March 02, 2019, 05:27:45 PM
Also interesting from the article:

Quote
According to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville’s Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he’s also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

“It’s a big investment for an airline,” VanLoh said. “Many times, it takes several years.”

Come on, LAX!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on March 02, 2019, 05:42:32 PM
Also interesting from the article:

Quote
According to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville’s Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he’s also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

“It’s a big investment for an airline,” VanLoh said. “Many times, it takes several years.”

Come on, LAX!
At least PHX!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on March 02, 2019, 09:38:58 PM
Would PHX count as west coast?? We already have nonstops to LAS which is farther west anyway.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on March 03, 2019, 10:14:07 AM
Would PHX count as west coast?? We already have nonstops to LAS which is farther west anyway.
Not west coast, but it would be another destination offering connections to the west.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: chipwich on March 03, 2019, 07:03:49 PM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on March 03, 2019, 09:45:39 PM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work.
They could make it with a 737.  If they pulled in Daytona, Savannah, and Gainesville, they could easily make LA profitable.  There used to be flights from Daytona and Savannah to Jax.  Right now I just want a choice....PHX, SLC, LAS on DAL or AA, SFO.  It'll happen.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2019, 10:42:40 AM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work. 

Exactly what I was thinking with Delta...or JAX-SLC with the same plane.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2019, 10:43:18 AM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work.
They could make it with a 737.  If they pulled in Daytona, Savannah, and Gainesville, they could easily make LA profitable.  There used to be flights from Daytona and Savannah to Jax.  Right now I just want a choice....PHX, SLC, LAS on DAL or AA, SFO.  It'll happen.

This is what Delta tried with a 737....and it failed.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on March 04, 2019, 10:45:29 AM
What's interesting is you mentioned United lacking a Southeast presence/strategy.

I wonder if JAX could make its longer term expansion plans part of trying to lure a United hub status. We're one of the few moderately size airport left in the SE without hub status, we'd be a short haul from major airports like Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte and their other hub in Houston. Plus Oscar Munoz CEO was a CSX guy...

It'd be interesting to see if United tries to compete in the SE with other airlines hubs or goes a different route of making a smaller SE airport "theirs."

Ultimately I don't think our numbers support it currently, but it'd be interesting none the less.

I've thought about this, but admittedly every time I do I chalk it up to wishful thinking. United has a very light presence in the southeast, and nearest hubs of Houston, Dulles, and O'Hare doesn't help things.

Conceivably, could they make JAX a focus city (small scale hub)? I suppose. I do think though Delta and American have done a good job with the market so I wouldn't bet on it.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ben says on March 12, 2019, 10:01:54 AM
Don't have high hopes for quality here (not a huge fan of PP lounges, unless we're talking Asia or Middle East), but still cool/good news for JIA.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-club-jax-opening-at-jacksonville-international-airport
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on April 30, 2019, 05:09:52 PM
Small update but as of tomorrow 5/1 the Frontier Vegas flight goes from late night/red eye to daytime flights.  Flight from JAX is 9:08AM-11:56AM and flight from Vegas is 1:35PM-8:53PM.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2019, 07:29:13 PM
Small update but as of tomorrow 5/1 the Frontier Vegas flight goes from late night/red eye to daytime flights.  Flight from JAX is 9:08AM-11:56AM and flight from Vegas is 1:35PM-8:53PM.

Interesting. Personally that would be my preference, but I feel like that flight did well at a redeye
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 01, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
These are welcomed changes to the schedule. I love the time on the Vegas to Jax flight. That is my optimal time for leaving Vegas.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2019, 10:48:53 AM
These are welcomed changes to the schedule. I love the time on the Vegas to Jax flight. That is my optimal time for leaving Vegas.

No argument from me-I’d prefer these times.

I do know there are those that can sleep anywhere and prefer redeye flights, and this was JAX’s only one.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Jagsdrew on May 01, 2019, 11:35:12 AM
I did the Frontier Red Eye and it was miserable.  Not the carrier's fault by any means, I was terribly hungover on the way back. Also, on the way there, it was like a party plane as there are ZERO business passengers, all play.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on May 01, 2019, 11:47:08 AM
It would be hard for me to be on a Frontier flight for that long given the benefits that I received with the major carriers.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: blizz01 on May 03, 2019, 08:17:55 AM
No more Toronto flight.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/05/02/jacksonville-international-airport-loses-last.html
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on May 03, 2019, 08:51:19 AM
Yep.

But, JAA awarded the Concourse B Design to Jacobs:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaa-selects-jacobs-rsandh-inc-to-design-third-concourse-at-jacksonville-international-airport
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on May 15, 2019, 12:47:50 PM
Private Club has opened at JIA

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-club-jax-opens-at-jacksonville-international-airport (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-club-jax-opens-at-jacksonville-international-airport)

Also, looks like Brighton and Brooks Brothers are shrinking to make room for a restaurant.  I think this is a good idea, as often as I pass through JAX, I don't think I've ever seen anyone shopping in those stores. 

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-plans-to-add-fast-casual-restaurant (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-plans-to-add-fast-casual-restaurant)
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: minder on June 16, 2019, 07:35:08 AM
I just noticed Charleston SC has a 6x weekly flight to Seattle. I know they have a 2x weekly seasonal with BA which I can understand for the peak of the year and on a limited frequency, but how the hell can they maintain a 6x weekly year round to Seattle and JAX has nothing to the West Coast!?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on June 16, 2019, 08:52:15 AM
I just noticed Charleston SC has a 6x weekly flight to Seattle. I know they have a 2x weekly seasonal with BA which I can understand for the peak of the year and on a limited frequency, but how the hell can they maintain a 6x weekly year round to Seattle and JAX has nothing to the West Coast!?

There is a Boeing plant in Charleston, I’m not sure if Boeing subsidies the route but it’s mainly used as a shuttle for their employees.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on June 16, 2019, 11:16:21 PM
Yeah it has to be related to that. Boeing employs over 7000 in Charleston and over 80000 in Seattle. Take a look to see how many flights they have to Chicago. I think they have around 30000 employees there.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on June 17, 2019, 09:57:48 AM
There are a lot of routes out there that operate for 1 or 2 specific reasons. For example, Cincinnati, which used to be Delta's #2 hub (and is nowhere near that today), still has one non-stop over the pond (to Paris). While I'm assuming they aren't flying empty planes on the passenger deck (Proctor and Gamble help this), a significant reason that flight still exists is cargo, as GE Aviation has a significant presence in both places.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Kerry on June 18, 2019, 03:58:14 PM
8 Fortune 500 companies doesn't hurt either.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/05/17/latest-fortune-500-lists-8-cincinnati-companies/3704767002/
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on June 18, 2019, 04:09:55 PM
8 Fortune 500 companies doesn't hurt either.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/05/17/latest-fortune-500-lists-8-cincinnati-companies/3704767002/

Bingo. For it's size, Cinci has a lot of F500 companies. Now, a couple of them actually located to Cinci due to the Delta hub (no longer), but that's likely sustaining a lot of the flights.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: fhrathore on June 18, 2019, 05:10:05 PM
Announced that Allegiant will begin seasonal service to Grand Rapids, MI this year.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on June 18, 2019, 09:16:12 PM
I truly miss that Jax to New Orleans route on Allegiant.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on June 27, 2019, 07:49:30 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.
Hopefully, that will be picked up by another carrier.  I can't see how you can make money on a JAX to Grand Rapids flight when JAX-LAX failed.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: tufsu1 on June 27, 2019, 10:04:37 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

wow...very unfortunate
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Captain Zissou on June 28, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.
Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on June 28, 2019, 10:12:56 AM
The JetBlue thing MIGHT not be a direct Jacksonville issue, but more of their strategy in general (I'm not sure). In the last couple months, they've dumped all their flights from Washington Dulles, will be soon dumping their Houston Hobby flights, and now seem to be trying to compete with Delta/American/Amtrak Acela on the DC-NYC-Boston runs. Given that Reagan is very tightly controlled from a gate/slot/capacity overall perspective, the JAX route may have been an innocent bystander to their larger plan (which I don't completely know).

There also may have been some fare pressure given that they compete with AA on the JAX-DCA route, and DCA is a hub for AA.

Or...something else that IS related to the market here.

Could it be a seasonal cut just over the winter?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JAX_ASD on June 28, 2019, 12:58:13 PM
I think part of the issue was the timing. With DCA being slot-restricted jetBlue wasn't able to tweak the schedule significantly enough to make it conducive for a business traveler. I also think jetBlue's overall brand awareness in DC itself is much less significant than its competition.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: fhrathore on June 29, 2019, 10:05:20 PM
Delta seems to have announced a flight to RDU.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on June 29, 2019, 10:40:37 PM
Delta seems to have announced a flight to RDU.
Yep, some positive news for JAX. Flight is through regional jet partner GoJet starting Sep 8th. Flight from JAX is 6am and flight from RDU is 8:30 pm.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on July 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM
Good call - I missed that announcement but you're right; it's definitely bookable starting 9/8. I never thought about this but it makes sense as RDU is a Focus City for Delta. In a couple dummy bookings that flight is also available for connections to certain places as well (example JAX-RDU-CVG).

Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Now, unless I REALLY need it you won't see me on it in the AM - 6AM Departure is ROUGH! Obviously a lot goes into route timing like gates, aircraft, crew, etc. but my lord.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on July 01, 2019, 01:37:28 PM
Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Delta and Jetblue seem to be in a real battle for JAX-BOS dominance.  Jetblue is dropping from 3/day to 2/day but upgauging those 2 flights from 100 seater E190s to 150 seat A320s so basically the same capacity as before. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on July 01, 2019, 01:50:04 PM
Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Delta and Jetblue seem to be in a real battle for JAX-BOS dominance.  Jetblue is dropping from 3/day to 2/day but upgauging those 2 flights from 100 seater E190s to 150 seat A320s so basically the same capacity as before. 

Yep, Boston seems like the east coast version of Seattle, where Delta and Alaska are going toe to toe.

Of course, Delta and Alaska were "engaged to be married" for lack of a better term as they were tight partners with rumors of a merger happening at any time. There never was a partnership between Delta and JetBlue.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on July 01, 2019, 09:23:18 PM
Good call - I missed that announcement but you're right; it's definitely bookable starting 9/8. I never thought about this but it makes sense as RDU is a Focus City for Delta. In a couple dummy bookings that flight is also available for connections to certain places as well (example JAX-RDU-CVG).

Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Now, unless I REALLY need it you won't see me on it in the AM - 6AM Departure is ROUGH! Obviously a lot goes into route timing like gates, aircraft, crew, etc. but my lord.

JAX-BOS will be nice for my transatlantic flights during the second half of the year.


Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Gators312 on July 03, 2019, 10:56:34 AM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.
Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.

FLL/PBI/RSW all gain DCA frequency at the expense of JAX & CHS.   Their CCO left recently FWIW.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on July 03, 2019, 02:21:58 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.
Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.

FLL/PBI/RSW all gain DCA frequency at the expense of JAX & CHS.   Their CCO left recently FWIW.

Given that DCA is a pretty heavy business destination (tourism too, but business especially), I bet it was fare pressure that led to this getting the axe. I bet JetBlue could charge more for tickets from South Florida and get the fare. JetBlue may have filled the planes as a result of fare sales/deals leading up to departure.

Further, given that DCA is one of the few US airports that slot controlled, I'm sure they want to make every dime they can on the planes going in there.

Case in point, Delta used to do a Last Minute fare email. They sent it on Tuesdays for that upcoming weekend. I saw their JAX-LAX nonstop in there many times for $99 each way. Put it this way, if you see a route that is frequently offered as a last minute deal, expect it to be on the chopping block.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: vicupstate on July 03, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
Quote
Delta used to do a Last Minute fare email.

USAir used to do that too. I got to see a lot of places cheap that way. Does ANY airline still do that?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on July 05, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
You can through third party sites, and Delta still in concept has the email (I'm subscribed to it), but they haven't sent it in years. Probably not coincidental that they've been HUGELY profitable lately.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on July 08, 2019, 08:57:33 AM
Quote
Delta used to do a Last Minute fare email.

USAir used to do that too. I got to see a lot of places cheap that way. Does ANY airline still do that?

JetBlue has its flash sales quite regularly. I believe I have seen both United and AA email some out in the last year. I have never taken any though...always far too limited in options.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on August 15, 2019, 02:20:20 PM
Southwest is dropping their Ft. Lauderdale and Dallas-Love field flights.  Now Jetblue is the last airline with a JAX-FLL flight as Spirit is also dropping that route.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on August 15, 2019, 05:59:21 PM
Man! That stinks! I was going to start using the route more starting next month.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Dolph1975 on August 19, 2019, 05:14:04 AM
I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on August 19, 2019, 07:12:58 AM
I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...

As long as passenger numbers keep growing year over year I wouldn't worry about the 3rd concourse unless there is a major recession or terrorist attack before construction begins.  The Ft. Lauderdale route had too much capacity with 3 airlines and 7 flights a day, something had to give and JetBlue was the winner.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on August 19, 2019, 10:46:45 AM
I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...

As long as passenger numbers keep growing year over year I wouldn't worry about the 3rd concourse unless there is a major recession or terrorist attack before construction begins.  The Ft. Lauderdale route had too much capacity with 3 airlines and 7 flights a day, something had to give and JetBlue was the winner.

The Southwest issues may also be a medium term schedule reshuffling as part of the 737 MAX fiasco. I think originally the airlines thought this would only be a couple months but clearly that has not been the case. Or it's the reason above and JetBlue was just the victor.

But I agree that some flux in a route or two here isn't going to delay the new concourse.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on August 19, 2019, 02:40:18 PM
JAX posted their July passenger numbers which were 651,238 compared to 590,821 last year.  The airport is on pace to break 7 million passengers for the fiscal year ending 9/30/19, and even higher for calendar year 2019.  The pace of growth is slowing a bit but even 10% year over year is still impressive.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: tufsu1 on August 19, 2019, 04:14:08 PM
JAX posted their July passenger numbers which were 651,238 compared to 590,821 last year.  The airport is on pace to break 7 million passengers for the fiscal year ending 9/30/19, and even higher for calendar year 2019.  The pace of growth is slowing a bit but even 10% year over year is still impressive.

No doubt it is good, but to put in context, every major airport in Florida (and several of smaller ones) have been breaking passenger records for the last few years.

Consider this - 127 million people visited Florida in 2018 and 2019 is on pace for nearly 140 million. That compares to 81 million just 10 years ago.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Sonic101 on August 19, 2019, 04:48:13 PM
Spirit's competition on the DTW - JAX route has really brought down Delta's prices. I was still surprised it was a packed flight when I took Delta a couple weeks ago.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on August 19, 2019, 05:39:44 PM
Do not fret Southwest announced a lot of cuts:

Effective Jan. 6, Southwest will eliminate nonstop flights between the following cities:
Los Angeles-Cancun, Mexico
Los Angeles-Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
Los Angeles-Omaha, Nebraska
Los Angeles-Pittsburgh
Boston-Atlanta
Boston-Kansas City, Missouri
Boston-Milwaukee
Dallas Love Field-Oklahoma City
Dallas Love Field-Jacksonville, Florida
Dallas Love Field-San Francisco
Orlando, Florida-Oakland, California
Orlando-San Jose, California
Orlando-Sacramento, California
Fort Lauderdale, Florida-Jacksonville, Florida
New York LaGuardia-Orlando, Florida
Columbus, Ohio-Oakland, California
Austin, Texas-San Francisco
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxlongtimer on August 19, 2019, 07:27:48 PM
The Southwest issues may also be a medium term schedule reshuffling as part of the 737 MAX fiasco. I think originally the airlines thought this would only be a couple months but clearly that has not been the case.

Agreed.  I have read that about 10% of Southwest planes are the 737 Max. There is a genuine shortfall of seats as a result. This has forced them, and other airlines such as American and United to a lesser degree, to eliminate flights for now.   Also, the 737 Max was ideal for certain routes so those routes may be the most vulnerable if other equipment can't fill the bill or is prioritized for other routes.

I have also read that older planes are "in demand" and being returned to service in some cases.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: minder on August 21, 2019, 06:03:01 PM
Routes with too much competition feeling the pinch.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxdan3 on September 20, 2019, 12:20:22 PM
Pending final approval it looks like JIA will be adding a BurgerFi and Southern Grounds as new food/drink options.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: dp8541 on September 20, 2019, 12:38:37 PM
Good to see a local spot like Southern Grounds get a spot in the airport.  Having some local restaurants and/or retail shops get a foothold in the airport would be great in my opinion and an area JAX need to improve in. 
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on December 31, 2019, 08:24:38 PM
I'm hoping for some new routes in 2020.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/nonstop-flights-west-coast-europe-jacksonville-could-happen-by-2022/4B62EETV4JETVM627FSAFUW4CA/

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: SirJax on January 13, 2020, 06:47:25 AM
I'm hoping for some new routes in 2020.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/nonstop-flights-west-coast-europe-jacksonville-could-happen-by-2022/4B62EETV4JETVM627FSAFUW4CA/

This could happen in the next couple years as Delta is supposed to induct the new Airbus A220-300 into service later this year. This airplane could serve JAX-west coast flights more efficiently than existing equipment can (since it has the right combination of size, range and fuel efficiency).
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: vicupstate on January 22, 2020, 09:41:34 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 10:15:41 AM
I didn’t fly much in the 4th quarter but the surface lots were always packed. The security lines generally move at a good pace.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 11:10:00 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.

Delta just declared war in Miami with AA? Really?! I fly out of MIA often and I don’t see competitive pricing with Delta.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2020, 12:26:54 PM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.

Delta just declared war in Miami with AA? Really?! I fly out of MIA often and I don’t see competitive pricing with Delta.

Yes, very much so:

1. AA (of the big 3 US airlines, far and away the biggest to South America) and LATAM (#1 carrier in South America) were applying for a joint venture (tightest type of alliance between airlines). Chilean government kicked it back, and it was expected that AA and LATAM would tweak it and seek re-approval.
2. But, Delta announced a few months ago they were buying 20% of LATAM, LATAM would no longer seek Joint Venture status with AA, and LATAM is leaving OneWorld (their global alliance with AA)
3. Delta announced they will greatly expand their presence in Miami
4. First wave of expansion was announced last week. They'll now have over 40 non stops from MIA. At present, Delta's MIA presence isn't THAT much larger than their JAX presence). They're adding 5 new cities, including Orlando (Which they dropped prior to all this happening) and Tampa - no JAX unfortunately.

Related, AA announced a large Boston expansion, which is a Delta hub.

It will likely will take a few months to shake out when it comes to fares, but it's about to get real between these two.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 01:20:43 PM
Thanks for the explanation! I would love to see some Jax-Bos routes on AA. It would make for an easier trip to Europe.


I saw a survey from the JBJ requesting input on direct flights to Asia from Orlando. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2020, 02:07:44 PM
Thanks for the explanation! I would love to see some Jax-Bos routes on AA. It would make for an easier trip to Europe.


I saw a survey from the JBJ requesting input on direct flights to Asia from Orlando. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

I can definitely see that working, particularly service from Tokyo-Narita or Seoul-Incheon.

The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 03:19:49 PM
My thought process was that you could get a JAX-LGW route on AA/BA or a Jax-Orly route with the expansion of B gate which would likely pull some southern/coastal GA money into FL. However, I agree becoming a focus city even on United would likely aid an international route in Jax.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 25, 2020, 04:00:19 PM
The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.

What about the relationship between Tampa and Orlando?  If Tampa has international flights and is closer to Orlando than Jax, it would seem at some point we could get our fair share.  I realize Tampa is a larger market but it has a good number of international flights (see below).  Couldn't we get at least one flight to London, Paris or Amsterdam :) ?

Quote
Nonstop service from TPA - International cities:

*indicates seasonal service

Amsterdam    AMS    Delta*
Cancun    CUN    Delta*
Frankfurt    FRA    Lufthansa
Grand Cayman    GCM    Cayman Airways
Halifax    YHZ    Air Canada*
Hamilton    YHM    Swoop*
Havana    HAV    Southwest
London-Gatwick    LGW    British Airways, Norwegian
Montreal    YUL    Air Canada*
Nassau    NAS    Silver Airways
Ottawa    YOW    Air Canada*
Panama City    PTY    Copa
St. John's    YYT    Westjet*
Toronto    YYZ    Air Canada, Westjet
Winnipeg    YWG    Swoop*
Zurich    ZHR    Edelweiss Air
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 26, 2020, 12:46:12 AM
The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.

What about the relationship between Tampa and Orlando?  If Tampa has international flights and is closer to Orlando than Jax, it would seem at some point we could get our fair share.  I realize Tampa is a larger market but it has a good number of international flights (see below).  Couldn't we get at least one flight to London, Paris or Amsterdam :) ?

Quote
Nonstop service from TPA - International cities:

*indicates seasonal service

Amsterdam    AMS    Delta*
Cancun    CUN    Delta*
Frankfurt    FRA    Lufthansa
Grand Cayman    GCM    Cayman Airways
Halifax    YHZ    Air Canada*
Hamilton    YHM    Swoop*
Havana    HAV    Southwest
London-Gatwick    LGW    British Airways, Norwegian
Montreal    YUL    Air Canada*
Nassau    NAS    Silver Airways
Ottawa    YOW    Air Canada*
Panama City    PTY    Copa
St. John's    YYT    Westjet*
Toronto    YYZ    Air Canada, Westjet
Winnipeg    YWG    Swoop*
Zurich    ZHR    Edelweiss Air

You said it-size of the city. Jax is a smaller city AND a decent driving distance to Orlando. Not to say it won’t happen. But, it doesn’t help.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on January 26, 2020, 09:17:29 AM
I have so many friends who drive to Orlando for both international and US flights.  They complain about the price of fares flying from JAX and the connections to both US and international cities.  That is the problem with getting more flights from JAX.  If you drive to Orlando, Orlando gets more flights!  Jacksonville loses!  I always fly from JAX because I know the airlines are looking at demand.  If you don't use JAX it looks as though JAX doesn't need those seats that MCO is filling.  Why drive a couple of hours, pay for gas, parking, and your time, only to hurt our chances of improving our air service?  If you fly, fly from home.  Help yourselves and our hopes for better service.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 26, 2020, 01:44:46 PM
Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run.

Nashville's become a sort of red neck Vegas of the east.   It's it's own wonderful thing in many ways, too.  The result is a butt ton of O/D traffic disproportionate to the city's population.   Southwest Airlines already has a hub there.

As for driving to Orlando, I can understand doing it.  I don't want my grandma to have to switch planes when she comes and visits and MCO is the best choice for that.

As for cost, I'd be curious what their actual costs are.  A lot of people focus on certain aspects of pricing but not the total picture.    The problem I have with Orlando is that to fly out you either get a flight later in the day because you have 2 1/2 hr drive + 2 hours checkin before flight + 20 minutes remote parking or you get a hotel overnight.  For a noon flight I need to be in the car by 7am to make sure I don't get caught up in traffic in JAX.  And I'll probably hit some in Orlando.

Maybe they're lured by the pricing Frontier, Spirit and others provide.  When you start comparing apples to apples those prices aren't always so cheap.     They're good for some folks in some situations.  From my experience though a lot of folks aren't good at making sure they're comparing the same thing nor pricing in risk nor pricing in driving nor pricing in their time.


Question - Does anyone who drives to MCO.  Do you prefer to vear off of I95 onto I-4 and go through Orlando?  Or do you take I95 down to Cocoa and then FL528 straight across?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on January 27, 2020, 08:57:13 AM
I tend to agree that flying out of MCO is a pain. However, I did take a direct flight to London (Gatwick) about a year ago and that was an easy trip with terrific flight times. I prefer to fly into Gatwick when possible because passport at Heathrow is awfully slow unless you have a Fast Pass.

I take 95 to I-4 then hop on 417 to get to 528.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 27, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
I have so many friends who drive to Orlando for both international and US flights.  They complain about the price of fares flying from JAX and the connections to both US and international cities.  That is the problem with getting more flights from JAX.  If you drive to Orlando, Orlando gets more flights!  Jacksonville loses!  I always fly from JAX because I know the airlines are looking at demand.  If you don't use JAX it looks as though JAX doesn't need those seats that MCO is filling.  Why drive a couple of hours, pay for gas, parking, and your time, only to hurt our chances of improving our air service?  If you fly, fly from home.  Help yourselves and our hopes for better service.

MCO is definitely an tough dynamic to have nearby. Flights are unusually cheap as the disproportionate amount of leisure travelers drives fares down.

And as pointed out, the fare has to be MUCH cheaper, or you have a decent sized family going - as the drive, parking, etc. are usually the same if 1 person is flying or 5 people are flying.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run.

Nashville's become a sort of red neck Vegas of the east.   It's it's own wonderful thing in many ways, too.  The result is a butt ton of O/D traffic disproportionate to the city's population.   Southwest Airlines already has a hub there.

As for driving to Orlando, I can understand doing it.  I don't want my grandma to have to switch planes when she comes and visits and MCO is the best choice for that.

As for cost, I'd be curious what their actual costs are.  A lot of people focus on certain aspects of pricing but not the total picture.    The problem I have with Orlando is that to fly out you either get a flight later in the day because you have 2 1/2 hr drive + 2 hours checkin before flight + 20 minutes remote parking or you get a hotel overnight.  For a noon flight I need to be in the car by 7am to make sure I don't get caught up in traffic in JAX.  And I'll probably hit some in Orlando.

Maybe they're lured by the pricing Frontier, Spirit and others provide.  When you start comparing apples to apples those prices aren't always so cheap.     They're good for some folks in some situations.  From my experience though a lot of folks aren't good at making sure they're comparing the same thing nor pricing in risk nor pricing in driving nor pricing in their time.


Question - Does anyone who drives to MCO.  Do you prefer to vear off of I95 onto I-4 and go through Orlando?  Or do you take I95 down to Cocoa and then FL528 straight across?

I fly out of JAX, MCO or TPA, depending on a lot of factors. Price (especially if buying for several people), if the flight is direct (I rather do a 3 hour direct flight than an 11 hour, 2 stop flight), and where I'm heading to the airport from or need to be the day after my return (I also work in Central Florida) all play an important role in my decision making process. I've mastered MCO now and I avoid checking bags, so for me it's pretty easy to get in and out of. Actually, these days, most airports are easy to get through. Atlanta is the one, I still avoid like a plague.

If traveling from JAX, I take I-95 to 417 to drop the vehicle off and then a shuttle via 528 to 436 and to the airport terminal. If the trip is for work, I park in the garage any airport terminal and expense it back to the company. Time is money to me, so driving to MCO to take a flight generally means I want a direct international flight and the JAX option means having to deal with long or multiple layovers. I rarely do it for price these days. Fares for the places I go in the US tend to be pretty competitive between the airports and when airfare is cheaper at the other airports, by the time you drive, pay for gas, parking, food, etc., things equal out.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 27, 2020, 12:58:10 PM
Related to our airport:

 - Apparently HMS won (again) the RFP to be the concessionaire at the airport
 - Southern Grounds is opening in Concourse A - Right now there are three retail bays occupied by Brooks Brothers and Brighton. They're going down to 2 and Southern Grounds will take the remaining one. Opening later in 2020.
 - Once Concourse B opens (looks like late 2022 at this point), BurgerFi will open in there.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JAX_ASD on January 27, 2020, 03:19:47 PM
Hey Steve - Southern Grounds is actually going right next to Gate A4, across from Ciao. The BurgerFi location was originally slated to go in one of the vacated retail spots you mentioned, but is now rolled into the Concourse B construction.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Sonic101 on January 27, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
I welcome any place past security that offers more breakfast options.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on January 27, 2020, 11:51:31 PM
Hey Steve - Southern Grounds is actually going right next to Gate A4, across from Ciao. The BurgerFi location was originally slated to go in one of the vacated retail spots you mentioned, but is now rolled into the Concourse B construction.

Good to know-thanks!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 13, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
Alaska Airlines is joining One World.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/alaska-airlines-american-partner-for-international-flights-from-west-coast.html


Interesting moves between Delta and American.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on February 13, 2020, 08:36:06 PM
Interesting story link.  Is Jacksonville being considered? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/08/jetblue-founders-new-airline-breeze-to-boost-midsize-cities-service.html?__twitter_impression=true&recirc=taboolainternal
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2020, 09:43:43 AM
Interesting story link.  Is Jacksonville being considered? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/08/jetblue-founders-new-airline-breeze-to-boost-midsize-cities-service.html?__twitter_impression=true&recirc=taboolainternal

If he's considering 500 city pairs and targeting mid-sized cities, there's no way JAX is NOT being considered at some level.

I do find this airline strategy interesting. Basically it's JetBlue but focused on Midsized cities. I'm assuming the competition will be Allegiant and Spirit?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 14, 2020, 11:11:31 AM
Alaska Airlines is joining One World.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/alaska-airlines-american-partner-for-international-flights-from-west-coast.html


Interesting moves between Delta and American.

Look at this as American firing back at Delta for Delta stealing American's South American Mistress, LATAM. Alaska was enjoying their time bouncing between dates but not putting on the ring. Looks like it's time for them to settle down!

American is definitely making their move and from a competition perspective it's fun to watch. AA's biggest challenge is profitability and streamlining their operations (still too many hiccups at this point). American in the northwest is like United in the southeast - nonexistent. The nonstop from SEA to Bangalore is clearly targeted at the tech community and could be a winner. The London addition also is targeted at Delta and could work very well considering their partnership with British Airways.

They do have to deal with some regulatory issues stemming from Alaska's purchase of Virgin America and those issues would likely prevent anything more than an alliance between the carriers - don't wait for an announcement that American is buying Alaska.

JAX should definitely look to see if there's opportunities there for them to take advantage of, but at this point SeaTac is bursting at the seams. Probably no more major expansion until they finish their terminal project (which I believe is slated to be early 2021).

Side note, I still don't get what United is doing in all of this. They've made ZERO play for the southeast, which is their biggest weakness the fastest growing part of the country. It makes no sense.

At the end of the day, I'm holding onto my Delta stock. Still room to go for them.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: jsjax37 on February 14, 2020, 04:19:17 PM
According to this Wikipedia entry, JAX does seem to be in the mix.  I also think that I have seen JAX mentioned in one other article regarding Breeze, but can't remember where.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeze_Airways
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Charles Hunter on February 14, 2020, 04:28:40 PM
From the linked wiki
Quote
Breeze will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including;[11][5]

    Austin–Bergstrom International Airport
    Boston Logan International Airport
    Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
    Gary/Chicago International Airport
    Hartford Bradley Airport
    Hollywood Burbank Airport
    Lehigh Valley International Airport
    Jacksonville International Airport
    Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
    MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
    Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport
    Oakland International Airport
    Ontario International Airport
    Orlando Sanford International Airport
    Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
    Providence T.F. Green Airport
    Scranton International Airport
    Sarasota Bradenton International Airport
    Seattle-Tacoma Airport
    St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport

Where would we like to fly?
Where do we think they will fly?
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: ProjectMaximus on February 15, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
From the linked wiki
Quote
Breeze will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including;[11][5]

    Austin–Bergstrom International Airport
    Boston Logan International Airport
    Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
    Gary/Chicago International Airport
    Hartford Bradley Airport
    Hollywood Burbank Airport
    Lehigh Valley International Airport
    Jacksonville International Airport
    Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
    MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
    Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport
    Oakland International Airport
    Ontario International Airport
    Orlando Sanford International Airport
    Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
    Providence T.F. Green Airport
    Scranton International Airport
    Sarasota Bradenton International Airport
    Seattle-Tacoma Airport
    St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport

Where would we like to fly?
Where do we think they will fly?

Well...this is from the source that was cited in your quote from wiki:

Quote
Possible city pairs include Seattle to Jacksonville or Hartford, or Austin to Boston, which Ozores says are “thinner routes that don’t have direct service today.”

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/all-of-the-details-we-have-on-david-neelemans-new-domestic-airline

So that's where they got Jax from, because of this one brief mention. And heck yes I'd take a nonstop to Seattle.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 15, 2020, 10:19:37 PM
The thing is, this is based on the Airbus A220, which they’re planning on buying. It’s economics were actually designed around “long, thin, transcontinental routes. Said a different way: when Delta was running JAX-LAX, they used a 737-800. For them, that was about the smallest plane they had that could serve the route.....and it held 160 people.

The A220 can handle that range with no issues, and holds 109 people on Delta’s config.

Personally, I don’t see JAX-SEA in our future, but I’d love to be wrong!
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: JaxAvondale on February 15, 2020, 11:09:50 PM
A Jax to Ontario flight would be awesome. That is a good flight for people who want to drive to Vegas as well. Straight shot once you hop on I-15 leaving the airport.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on February 16, 2020, 09:04:52 AM
I'd like to see cities such as Daytona, Pensacola, Gainesville, Savannah, Tallahassee, Panama City, etc., be routed thru JAX instead of CLT or ATL.  It would be preferable to those cities as well as JAX.  With the new concourse coming online about the same time as Breeze, it would work out well.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 16, 2020, 10:22:27 AM
I'd like to see cities such as Daytona, Pensacola, Gainesville, Savannah, Tallahassee, Panama City, etc., be routed thru JAX instead of CLT or ATL.  It would be preferable to those cities as well as JAX.  With the new concourse coming online about the same time as Breeze, it would work out well.

There are places in the Pacific Northwest that have that type of service, but take all of the cities you mentioned and take a 0 off the population. The airlines don’t do that anymore. Regional Jets have made that type of service obsolete unless the place is about 10% the size of Daytona and is many hours from another airport.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Snaketoz on February 16, 2020, 10:46:24 AM
I agree.  I'm very familiar with Portland, OR (PDX)  There are many feeder flights on Dash aircraft from cities in the NW.  I think SLC is similar.
Title: Re: JAX/JIA updates
Post by: Steve on February 16, 2020, 03:55:43 PM
I agree.  I'm very familiar with Portland, OR (PDX)  There are many feeder flights on Dash aircraft from cities in the NW.  I think SLC is similar.

SLC has a ton of flights on CRJ-200’s, which is a 50 seat all economy plane (and at present, the smallest thing that says Delta on the side of it). MSP has a good few as well.