The Jaxson

Urban Thinking => Urban Issues => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on September 09, 2008, 05:00:00 AM

Title: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on September 09, 2008, 05:00:00 AM
City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/parking/boot1.jpg)

Changes may again be coming to Downtown parking laws, but this time it could be the final nail in the coffin for the few remaining businesses.  

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/892
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: reednavy on September 09, 2008, 05:20:56 AM
Can we just go ahead and do it, right now, just do it. Make a book called JACKSONVILLE: The City FAIL!

Seriously, this has got to be the 2nd best example to Detroit of a city this large absolutely f*cking up, especially the opportunities for our location, size and diversity. I practically give up on this city. They at least did sprawl just right.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: gatorback on September 09, 2008, 06:14:04 AM
A fee for parking downtown at night?  Great. We will need 10 meter maids working 24/7 to empty all those fees from the meters and enforce the new fee structure. In fact, we should impound cars that are at expired meters.  This way, the city could get a $250.00 towing fee, plus $25 storage fee per night to deal with extra cost for the new full time meter maids needed to solve the huge night time parking problem downtown.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 07:27:00 AM
This is just plain stupid.  Businesses downtown should march straight into Peytons office.  I am OK with metering and fines for parking during the day but there is really no need to do so at night... UNLESS... you are trying to generate income(tax) from a specific group of people...

The urbanites have been targeted...
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Tripoli1711 on September 09, 2008, 09:09:03 AM
The lone bit of bright news I got from the story is that he is walking around City Council "looking for a sponsor".  This means, I hope, that he does not yet have one.  I pray the Council is intelligent enough to realize what a stupid idea this is.  Bob Carle is from Parking and Enforcement.  His mindset isn't what is good for the city.  His mindset is what is good for Bob Carle and his division.  This isn't the typical 'head in the sand' dumbassery of Jacksonville.. His point of view is indicative of what is wrong with government at all levels in our nation.  What is best for the city, psh!  to hell with that.  What is best for me?  Gotta love people like him.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 09, 2008, 09:18:19 AM
OUTRAGE! The Parking Division is out of control, an obvious loose cannon in the artillery of common sense. The idea that we have a so called Transportation Authority - without ANY authority in this is unbelievable.
BTW, shouldn't parking, walks, bikeways and paths come under transportation? They could then be joint projects of JTA-Parks, JTA-City, etc. At the very least, JTA would probably maintain the things.

As the resident TRANSIT MONSTER on these boards, I'm all in favor of cutting down the amount of parking tossed into both downtown AND places like Baymeadows/Town Center/Southpointe. Seems to me the logic is all wrong here:

1. Allow new builders into these areas without the parking requirements - provided they sign a subscription transit program agreement with the JTA for their employees. Parking must be maintained and in the end this would be a bargain for both sides.

2. Focus new parking garage efforts on the limits of the urbanized areas but not within these areas. This way park and ride in would become a fixed way of life in Jacksonville, and the immediate benefit would be to return acres of bare ground to tax based building.

3. Remove ALL PARKING meters from the city streets. This would allow the small restaurant, retail and entertainment industry to take root in both downtown and the edge city at town-center.

The end result would be density that would support life, and mass transit on a scale that we've never seen.  


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 09, 2008, 09:28:05 AM
After flogging, tar and feathering, and whilst still sticky, this is the photo that should be pasted to Bob Carle's nether regions...

(http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/upload290106/OX67%20rX70%20Thornhill%20PnR%20280106%20mc.jpg)

BOB, IT'S CALLED PARK AND RIDE!

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 09:29:41 AM
These changes would likely end Art Walk.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 09:35:09 AM
I sent my email in... >:(
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: fsujax on September 09, 2008, 09:37:45 AM
This is truly disappointing. These parking people are killing Downtown and the sad thing is they dont realize it or just dont care! what an outrage.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 09, 2008, 10:09:53 AM
Well it is fairly clear the city does not care about downtown, other than for the offices and workers during the day. They do not want anyone living, shopping, or eating there on the weekends or at night and if anyone dares to do so they will pay a price. But hey, maybe it will drive people out to their overdeveloped burbs……ridiculous!
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Bostech on September 09, 2008, 10:15:59 AM
This town is run by Gate and oil-based interest groups and they do not have any interest in urban lifestyle,quite opposite they want Jax to be suburban as much as posible and spend more gas.

Jax administration has been sabotaging urban projects constantly.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: avonjax on September 09, 2008, 10:27:36 AM
I have a suggestion....
PUT A GIANT ELECTRIC FENCE WITH MACHINE GUN TOTIN' ARMED GUARDS AROUND DOWNTOWN AND CALL IT QUITS.
WE HAVE HORRIBLE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION AND MOST PEOPLE HAVE TO DRIVE DOWNTOWN ON NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE AND NOW THEY WANT TO TRY THIS GARBAGE.
THEY WILL NEVER COLLECT ANY MONEY BECAUSE DOWNTOWN ON NITES AND WEEKENDS WILL DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH.

SO WHERE IS THE POST THAT THIS IS REALLY A SILLY JOKE...
CUZ YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ABOUT THIS ONE......
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Jason on September 09, 2008, 10:28:04 AM
Don't give them ideas Stephen.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 10:39:08 AM
Do not just complain here... send an email.

If you would like downtown parking to remain free on nights and weekends, it is important that you email the Jacksonville City Council at citycouncil@metrojacksonville.com This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it . A very short note opposing this legislation will help get their attention on this issue.

Perhaps an address for the Mayor and possibly Andy Johnson?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: konstantconsumer on September 09, 2008, 10:54:33 AM
Here is what I sent:

I am writing to encourage you to vote against any new downtown parking policy that would enforce metered parking after 5 pm on weekdays and on the weekends.  This would devastate many downtown businesses, especially restaurants that are trying to bring life and new customers to downtown.  I am in law school, so I spend many weekends at the lovely new downtown library, often for up to 4 hours at a time.  Additionally, I wait tables at Chew.  It would be extremely inconvenient to have to move my car every hour when studying.  Additionally, it would discourage customers from eating at Chew, or many other downtown restaurants, if there was concern about a car being ticketed or towed.

Often, public officials talk an excellent game about downtown development, but their policies and voting record do not correspond.  Those of us who work and spend time downtown are the ones who end up paying the price.

Thank you,

Adam
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Doctor_K on September 09, 2008, 11:07:54 AM
I gotta tell you I really liked konstantconsumer's wording.  Can we use that as a form letter to send on to Peyton and everyone else on the city council?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 09, 2008, 11:12:09 AM
I am writing to encourage you to vote against any new downtown parking policy that would enforce metered parking after 5 pm on weekdays and on the weekends.  This would devastate many downtown businesses, especially restaurants that are trying to bring life and new customers to downtown.  I live downtown, so I spend many weekends at the lovely new downtown library, eat and shop downtown often for up to 4 hours at a time. It would be extremely inconvenient to have to move my car every hour when partaking of downtowns current offerrings.  Additionally, it would discourage customers from eating at many other downtown restaurants, if there was concern about a car being ticketed or towed.

Often, public officials talk an excellent game about downtown development, but their policies and voting record do not correspond.  Those of us who work, live, and spend time downtown are the ones who end up paying the price.

Thank you,



I have no problem with plagerism LOL!!!
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: gatorback on September 09, 2008, 11:17:12 AM
you may add my name to the list.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 09, 2008, 11:29:30 AM
I can not get the city council link to work. I tried everything, inlcuding what was posted I don"t get it  >:(
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: mccorkle on September 09, 2008, 11:37:22 AM
How is Bob Carle proposing that his changes would benefit the people, business, building owners?  Does anyone have a link to his proposal so we can read it? 

If the proposal actually claims to do something good for downtown, perhaps we could recommend something just as good that doesn't alienate the few customers that spend time and money downtown?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 09, 2008, 11:44:24 AM
it kicks it back as undeliverable, I may have to try a different email carrier
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Coolyfett on September 09, 2008, 12:26:53 PM
City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/parking/boot1.jpg)

Changes may again be coming to Downtown parking laws, but this time it could be the final nail in the coffin for the few remaining businesses. 

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/892 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/892)

*Eyes closed, shaking head violently*
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: rjp2008 on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Why don't we offer them a compromise - all ticket proceeds will go towards light rail development, extending the Skyway further, and/or developing the S line.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 12:40:34 PM
Why don't we offer them a compromise - all ticket proceeds will go towards light rail development, extending the Skyway further, and/or developing the S line.

That would be good except no one will be parking downtown at night anymore to give tickets to...
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Bewler on September 09, 2008, 12:54:11 PM
If this is to go in effect, about how many people might it take to park downtown with the intent on receiving a parking ticket at night only to rip them up and throw them on the street in protest, to make a difference?

Or start a petition encouraging everyone who receives a ticket not to pay.

I guess I’m being overdramatic, sorry but I’m upset. This is very discouraging.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: jacksonvilleconfidential on September 09, 2008, 01:13:14 PM
Absolute Lunacy.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: rjp2008 on September 09, 2008, 01:23:34 PM
What would it take to enact a de-consolidation?

Jax city council is WAY too powerful. If downtown wants to separate itself from the world, so be it - De-Consolidate!
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 01:34:04 PM
What is the position of JEDC and DVI on this issue? Shouldn't they be on top of something like this?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Driven1 on September 09, 2008, 01:51:35 PM
have we looked at the possible ADVANTAGES of operational meters at night?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Bewler on September 09, 2008, 02:03:41 PM
Such as less douche bags clubbing it up at Mark’s and Dive Bar?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: avonjax on September 09, 2008, 02:11:36 PM
there will be no marks or dive bar if this happens.....
and of course there has to be one person who can find an advantage...
So what is it Driven1?
Please share
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 02:19:13 PM
Why are there parking meters on the street at all?? ???

http://www.ionet.net/~luttrell/history.html

The world's first installed parking meter was in Oklahoma City, on July 16, 1935.  Mr. Magee had been appointed to the Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce traffic committee, and was assigned the task of solving the parking problems in downtown Oklahoma City. Apparently, folks who worked in the area were parking on downtown streets, staying all day, and leaving few spaces for shoppers and others who visited the central business district. 
Magee's solution was to install parking meters, charge for the use of the parking spaces, and turn over those spaces that would otherwise have been filled by all day parkers. In addition, the parking meters would generate revenue for a growing city.


If this is why Jacksonville has parking meters then it really makes no sense at all to enforce metered parking at night. :)
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Joe on September 09, 2008, 02:46:01 PM
You hit the nail on the head, Bridge Troll.

During the day, there's a clear purpose for meters or time limits. They prevent office workers from parking on-street all day long.
 
At night, there is no purpose for this what-so-ever. It makes absolutely no sense. I can't imagine even Jacksonville's city council doing something so stupid.

The only time night/weekend metering makes sense is when there is an entertainment district with a parking crunch. Very few city districts meet that criteria, and certainly none in Jacksonville.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 02:49:32 PM
Actually, there is no clear purpose for meters in the day either. There are no stores to shop at and the meter occupancy rate is around 20% according to a JTA study.

The people lobbying for more enforcement are private parking lot owners.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 02:53:43 PM
Quote
At night, there is no purpose for this what-so-ever. It makes absolutely no sense.

Well... it does... if you think you need to tax the people who use downtown.  If someone decided that those who use the streets at night to park are a new and untapped revenue stream for the city then you enact a policy like this.

The problem (like most taxes) is that it hurts consumers and business.  Business owners need to get together to stop this...
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 03:05:06 PM
Also, does parking enforcement regularly patrol any other neighborhood?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 09, 2008, 03:07:12 PM
Actually, there is no clear purpose for meters in the day either. There are no stores to shop at and the meter occupancy rate is around 20% according to a JTA study.

The people lobbying for more enforcement are private parking lot owners.

exactly.  there is no reason to have the meters at all in downtown.  Do something half smart and pull them up to finally make the area attractive to merchants and customers.

If they remove all meters from downtown it will lead to "permanent parking" of vehicles.  What is to stop me from parking my car that doesnt work very well on a downtown street for a couple days...  I think they do serve an evil purpose during the day.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 03:13:15 PM
At this point, what exactly would this theoretical car be interfering with?

Why are we creating "turnover" in front of grass fields and abandoned buildings?

Apparently the Jewelery store on the corner of Laura and Adams is the last remaining store downtown that anyone drives to in the middle of the day.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 09, 2008, 03:46:59 PM
Actually, there is no clear purpose for meters in the day either. There are no stores to shop at and the meter occupancy rate is around 20% according to a JTA study.

The people lobbying for more enforcement are private parking lot owners.

exactly.  there is no reason to have the meters at all in downtown.  Do something half smart and pull them up to finally make the area attractive to merchants and customers.

If they remove all meters from downtown it will lead to "permanent parking" of vehicles.  What is to stop me from parking my car that doesnt work very well on a downtown street for a couple days...  I think they do serve an evil purpose during the day.

The city does not have to make people pay to create turnover.  You can still enforce time limits without meters

Downtown Raleigh
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4811-p1020181.jpg)

Savannah's main retail street offers free time limited parking
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5110-p1100997.JPG)

Downtown Greenville offers free on-street parking
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4127-p1070061.JPG)

We can still have turnover without penalizing people for visiting downtown businesses.  These three cities above are examples of this.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 09, 2008, 04:17:24 PM
It's hard to make a case for turnover when half of downtown looks like this:

(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/images/parking/DSC_0026.JPG)

Why exactly are those meters there?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 09, 2008, 04:21:18 PM
I think they are waiting on the courthouse?

Btw, you need an updated image.  The 100 year old buildings in the background were ripped down a few months ago.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: copperfiend on September 09, 2008, 08:33:51 PM
I think they are waiting on the courthouse?

Btw, you need an updated image.  The 100 year old buildings in the background were ripped down a few months ago.

:(
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 09, 2008, 08:48:49 PM
I just read where the city council just voted tonight to ease up restrictions on homeless feedings too, even the non profits are against this- this just may be the death of downtown.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 09, 2008, 09:48:53 PM
To Whom It May Concern-

If Jacksonville is ever to become an advanced and respected metropolitan area those in charge must make decisions to allow for growth and development in the urban core. I'm writing because I've caught wind of possible legislation to impose more stringent parking fees downtown, which would effectively kill business growth in the core. Please please do not allow this to happen. I am a proud Jax native who has since moved far away, but hope to return someday to a bustling and lively cosmopolitan city (we can all dream). I implore you to keep Jacksonville moving in the right direction. The first step? If not eliminating parking meters altogether, at least vote against additional fees or expanded hours.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Maxwell Lee
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on September 09, 2008, 11:13:08 PM
This city's future seemes to be doomed,,its tough enough as it is to get people in this city to venture downtown now we make it more difficult. We continue to give the homeless a reason to stay homeless. Our new motto should be Death to the City of Jacksonville where fools and homeless run free.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Jerry Moran on September 10, 2008, 01:57:10 AM
Top Brass at JEDC assured me on Tuesday afternoon that the 24/7 enforcement was just an idea put forth by Parking Enforcement at a brain storming session.  It's not gonna happen.  Councilman Don Redman and assistant Scott Wilson concur.

Good work folks.  I think we can back off now.

Quote
I just read where the city council just voted tonight to ease up restrictions on homeless feedings too, even the non profits are against this- this just may be the death of downtown.

This is troubling.  No input from downtown residents and business owners.  I attended the City Council meeting Tuesday evening long enough to experience the 9/8 vote in favor of the relaxed standards for feeding. I was ready for public comment, but no comment was permitted before the vote.

Councilman Don Redman telephoned shortly thereafter to explain that the amendments to the ordinance only apply to "residential areas".  Redmans's assistant, Scott Wilson also telephoned.  I suggested that Downtown is a unique area of Jacksonville,and requires special rules and treatment.  We agreed to have a meeting sometime in the future, that would include members of the downtown community.  Anyone interested?  Let me know:  lacenar@gmail.com (http://lacenar@gmail.com).


Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on September 10, 2008, 02:31:15 AM
(Jerry Morgan)Thanks Good news tried to access your email was not able to  can you send me an email at your convience,,  kkpugh726@aol.com,,another ? why would this idea or an idea like this would even be considered(re parking and homeless),,just goes to show how much work that needs to be done, in fact the problem is not the homeless, surface lots and etc its the city leaders, thats  the problem.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 10, 2008, 08:32:36 AM
Quote
If they remove all meters from downtown it will lead to "permanent parking" of vehicles.  What is to stop me from parking my car that doesnt work very well on a downtown street for a couple days...  I think they do serve an evil purpose during the day.

Why do you see this as a problem? Hell, at least we would "look like" someone is downtown! Used car dealers across the land could store their cars along our empty streets...

Stay tuned and we'll even come up with an idea to make it look like we have buildings and people too!


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 10, 2008, 08:44:52 AM
I really wasnt saying it was a problem.  The issue began with night time metering and enforcment which I am whole heartedly against.  Which is a move away from the status quo... metered and enforcment during the day.  Stephen changed the entire argument by proposing removing all metered parking and enforcement.  I was simply saying that there may be a downside to removing all metered parking.  I am not a "parking specialist" but I can imagine instances where unmetered parking could be abused and cause a problem.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 10, 2008, 09:38:57 AM
No more than the abuse occurring at the Avenues and Town Center everyday.  Five Points and San Marco Square are timed, but don't penalize their customers to pay an entry fee to visit their districts.

Anyway, since these suggestions were a part of a "brainstorming session", I think its time to "brainstorm" a little more.  The validity of simply having on-street meters should be seriously discussed.  Then if there really is a need, we should then be finding a way to install more user friendly and attractive smart meters.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 10, 2008, 10:10:44 AM
Take a look around downtown during a work day. The meter usage is extremely low. Probably even less than JTA's estimated 20%.

At night occupancy is approximately zero. The meters serve no purpose.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 10, 2008, 10:59:49 AM
If the meters were removed altogether wouldn’t that limit parking during the day time hours as office workers WILL park there if it’s free. Then if you want to grab lunch, early dinner, shop, or go to the library you are out of luck.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Traveller on September 10, 2008, 11:31:07 AM
If the meters were removed altogether wouldn’t that limit parking during the day time hours as office workers WILL park there if it’s free. Then if you want to grab lunch, early dinner, shop, or go to the library you are out of luck.

Remove the meters but set time limits for parking during normal business hours.  2 hours most places, maybe shorter for higher demands areas like near the courthouse, and longer for downtown areas away from the central business district.  If someone wants to park longer, they'll have to use a garage or pay lot.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 10, 2008, 11:37:12 AM
In reality, there are only a few blocks downtown that someone could have dinner or go shopping. The rest of downtown it would not be possible to do so.

Shopping here?

(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/images/parking/DSC_0023.JPG)


A nice dinner here?

(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/images/parking/DSC_0025.JPG)

Why are we paying to maintain and enforce meters in front of abandoned and demolished buildings? They are never used.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 10, 2008, 11:44:28 AM
now for a counter balance


1. Allow new builders into these areas without the parking requirements - provided they sign a subscription transit program agreement with the JTA for their employees. Parking must be maintained and in the end this would be a bargain for both sides.

this is a good idea in some places, like the urban core, san marco springfield,avondale, the older urban areas but it is an insane idea for the suburban areas, if you do not provide adequate parking businesses will not be able to attract customers and the ones they do attract will create parking on medians, in fire zones. You urbanistas have to realize that the vast majority of people DO NOT share your visions of dense urban utopias, many of us moved to the 'burbs to escape what you hold near and dear

2. Focus new parking garage efforts on the limits of the urbanized areas but not within these areas. This way park and ride in would become a fixed way of life in Jacksonville, and the immediate benefit would be to return acres of bare ground to tax based building.

park and ride has many limits to it's usability, this is just another one size fits all approach to a problem and it is a big reason why park and rides rarely work as planned.

3. Remove ALL PARKING meters from the city streets. This would allow the small restaurant, retail and entertainment industry to take root in both downtown and the edge city at town-center.
sorry but I don't agree with you again, metered parking is not or should not be about revenues, it is about creating turnover of parking spaces, but the time limits have to be reasonable, for example if you want to have metered parking after 6pm you need to allow people to park for many hours, enough time to have dinner and see a show, maybe a 4 hour limit would work in the evenings, during the day a 1-2 hour limit should be used.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 10, 2008, 11:59:05 AM
I can only comment on my own experience, of trying to find a parking spot at the library, at the bank, at the landing. You are correct i can always find a parking space in the garage, but tryign parking outside the bank, library of landing..it is impossible. My only concern would be even less spaces may be available in these particular areas if there were no meters at all. In any case I only brought it up as a concern, soemthign to think about, not as reason in and of itself to not get rid of the meters. I know some workers have to apy for that reserved spot themselves and complain bitterly. It is one of the reason some companies do not have their offices downtown.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 10, 2008, 01:04:29 PM
(Forwarded to me in response to my email. Not sure if this is entirely supposed to put me at ease)

Subject: Downtown Parking Concerns

Councilmember Bishop,

Thank you for bringing us your constituents’ concerns about the information floating around about downtown parking.  First and foremost I would like to let you know that we have no intention of filing legislation that prohibits weeknight or weekend parking.

From what we understand, the rumors started from a City Note in the Daily Record that misrepresented information contained in an e-mail written by Bob Carle.   Bob Carle, Chief of Public Parking was tasked with evaluating new parking enforcement/meter technologies.  Some of the critical criteria for any new technology would be flexibility of payment by customer and enforcement flexibility for the City, merchants, residents and other stakeholders.  This flexibility is especially important during special events.  You may recall that Mr. Carle was looking at similar technology last year and it was his belief at the time that better technology and better pricing for the equipment were still in development.  Bob has been working only on the technology and future enforcement pieces of what would best be described as a ‘starting point for conversation.’

The plan has all along been to wait until after the budget process so that we may all focus on crafting an ordinance that makes sense from budget, policy and enforcement perspectives.  The legislation will be introduced on behalf of the Mayor as all Administration legislation is.  Public Parking will not have the only say.  JEDC will not have the only say.  DVI will not have the only say.  We will all work collaboratively to bring the Council an ordinance that makes sense and is sensitive to all stakeholders.

I hope this helps.  Most stakeholders have been aware that this discussion was forthcoming – just not so quickly!  k

Kerri Stewart

Deputy Chief Administrative Officer

City of Jacksonville
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 10, 2008, 01:30:03 PM
The following section is proposed to be removed:

Quote
No person utilizing a parking space within an established parking meter zone during the hours commencing at 12:01 a.m. on Saturday and continuing until 12:01 a.m. on Monday shall be required to make payment for the use of the space and neither the Sheriff nor the Chief of Parking Facilities and Enforcement shall enforce collection at a meter in the City during this period of time.1

1  Some cities which enjoy a successful downtown atmosphere continue to enforce parking regulations on the weekend. As Jacksonville grows, this proposed strike through would allow us the ability to enforce as necessary.

The following section is proposed to be added:

Quote
Moving the vehicle within a four-block radius, on a meter or in a timed zone, to extend the parking time beyond the allowable limit, is unlawful.6

6  Need to restore the language which prohibits persons parking within a four block radius after their initial time parking has expired.

Here is the full document:
http://static.metrojacksonville.com/documents/Ord_revision_draft.pdf
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 10, 2008, 02:35:52 PM
The following section is proposed to be removed:

Quote
No person utilizing a parking space within an established parking meter zone during the hours commencing at 12:01 a.m. on Saturday and continuing until 12:01 a.m. on Monday shall be required to make payment for the use of the space and neither the Sheriff nor the Chief of Parking Facilities and Enforcement shall enforce collection at a meter in the City during this period of time.1

1  Some cities which enjoy a successful downtown atmosphere continue to enforce parking regulations on the weekend. As Jacksonville grows, this proposed strike through would allow us the ability to enforce as necessary.

The following section is proposed to be added:

Quote
Moving the vehicle within a four-block radius, on a meter or in a timed zone, to extend the parking time beyond the allowable limit, is unlawful.6

6  Need to restore the language which prohibits persons parking within a four block radius after their initial time parking has expired.

Here is the full document:
http://static.metrojacksonville.com/documents/Ord_revision_draft.pdf

1.  You know, in Oz, they have a horse of a different color and a wonderful wizard who will grant your fondest wishes. 

The vivid fantasy life one would have to be immersed in to thing that Jacksonville has anything in common with 'some cities which enjoy a successful downtown atmosphere' is mindboggling.

I wonder if they have wonderful wizards as well?

2.  Why on earth would anyone besides a mongoloid sadist feel it was necessary to 'make' people move four blocks away in order to stay downtown.

What a kind sized German Goat war..



Follow the yellow brick road... :D

We're not in Kansas anymore... :D
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 10, 2008, 02:55:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/tzP8gTiovCA

Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: TD* on September 10, 2008, 03:25:21 PM
Well I feel that this is being done because of tax cuts.. money has to come from somewhere. Its a harsh world.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 10, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Thank you for bringing us your constituents’ concerns about the information floating around about downtown parking.  First and foremost I would like to let you know that we have no intention of filing legislation that prohibits weeknight or weekend parking.

They have no intention of prohibiting weeknight and weekend parking, but will it be free?

Quote
From what we understand, the rumors started from a City Note in the Daily Record that misrepresented information contained in an e-mail written by Bob Carle.

How was it misrepresented? There was an actual draft ordinance.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 10, 2008, 05:40:10 PM
If the meters were removed altogether wouldn’t that limit parking during the day time hours as office workers WILL park there if it’s free. Then if you want to grab lunch, early dinner, shop, or go to the library you are out of luck.

No.  See this post I made earlier in the discussion.

Quote
The city does not have to make people pay to create turnover.  You can still enforce time limits without meters

Downtown Raleigh
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4811-p1020181.jpg)

Savannah's main retail street offers free time limited parking
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5110-p1100997.JPG)

Downtown Greenville offers free on-street parking
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4127-p1070061.JPG)

We can still have turnover without penalizing people for visiting downtown businesses.  These three cities above are examples of this.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: uptowngirl on September 10, 2008, 05:51:49 PM
Now this idea I like, this is the best solution in my not very knowledgeable opinion!
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 10, 2008, 05:53:58 PM
(Forwarded to me in response to my email. Not sure if this is entirely supposed to put me at ease)

Subject: Downtown Parking Concerns

Councilmember Bishop,

Thank you for bringing us your constituents’ concerns about the information floating around about downtown parking.  First and foremost I would like to let you know that we have no intention of filing legislation that prohibits weeknight or weekend parking.

From what we understand, the rumors started from a City Note in the Daily Record that misrepresented information contained in an e-mail written by Bob Carle.   Bob Carle, Chief of Public Parking was tasked with evaluating new parking enforcement/meter technologies.  Some of the critical criteria for any new technology would be flexibility of payment by customer and enforcement flexibility for the City, merchants, residents and other stakeholders.  This flexibility is especially important during special events.  You may recall that Mr. Carle was looking at similar technology last year and it was his belief at the time that better technology and better pricing for the equipment were still in development.  Bob has been working only on the technology and future enforcement pieces of what would best be described as a ‘starting point for conversation.’

The plan has all along been to wait until after the budget process so that we may all focus on crafting an ordinance that makes sense from budget, policy and enforcement perspectives.  The legislation will be introduced on behalf of the Mayor as all Administration legislation is.  Public Parking will not have the only say.  JEDC will not have the only say.  DVI will not have the only say.  We will all work collaboratively to bring the Council an ordinance that makes sense and is sensitive to all stakeholders.

I hope this helps.  Most stakeholders have been aware that this discussion was forthcoming – just not so quickly!  k

Kerri Stewart

Deputy Chief Administrative Officer

City of Jacksonville

...The plan has all along been to wait until after the budget process so that we may all focus on crafting an ordinance that makes sense from budget, policy and enforcement perspectives...

This may be the root of the problem here.  All downtown ordinances should be developed in a manner that improves the Downtown Experience for the End User.  If enhancing the end user's visit to downtown becomes the top priority, the end result would be the complete opposite.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 10, 2008, 06:22:37 PM
I think they are upset that they got caught early on this. They prefer to have everything already decided, have two minutes of public comment at a council meeting, and pass it all right through without notice.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 10, 2008, 08:18:27 PM
Definitely. Good eye, MJ!!

I think they are upset that they got caught early on this. They prefer to have everything already decided, have two minutes of public comment at a council meeting, and pass it all right through without notice.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: JeffreyS on September 10, 2008, 09:18:05 PM
Maybe any proposed ordiance change should have to be posted to the web for 10 days before the city council addresses the proposal. Great work MJ.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Midway ® on September 10, 2008, 11:26:58 PM
(Forwarded to me in response to my email. Not sure if this is entirely supposed to put me at ease)

Subject: Downtown Parking Concerns

Councilmember Bishop,

Thank you for bringing us your constituents’ concerns about the information floating around about downtown parking.  First and foremost I would like to let you know that we have no intention of filing legislation that prohibits weeknight or weekend parking.

Blah...Blah...Blah...

I hope this helps.  Most stakeholders have been aware that this discussion was forthcoming – just not so quickly!  k

Kerri Stewart

Deputy Chief Administrative Officer

City of Jacksonville

Perhaps nobody noticed, but this answer is completely non responsive to the original question.  It was shown to be true that the city was planning an ordinance to extend the hours of operation of on street parking meters, and other measures to 24 hours a day, seven days a week, not to prohibit parking on the street. So while the respondent is answering a question that was never asked, there is no answer to the question that was posed.  There is something very wrong with that answer that should arouse everyone's suspicions.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: ProjectMaximus on September 11, 2008, 01:03:13 AM
Oh, I noticed. That's why I was saying at the top that the email wasnt really alleviating my concerns.

I'm just glad they now know that a lot of us are watching...

(Forwarded to me in response to my email. Not sure if this is entirely supposed to put me at ease)

Subject: Downtown Parking Concerns

Councilmember Bishop,

Thank you for bringing us your constituents’ concerns about the information floating around about downtown parking.  First and foremost I would like to let you know that we have no intention of filing legislation that prohibits weeknight or weekend parking.

Blah...Blah...Blah...

I hope this helps.  Most stakeholders have been aware that this discussion was forthcoming – just not so quickly!  k

Kerri Stewart

Deputy Chief Administrative Officer

City of Jacksonville

Perhaps nobody noticed, but this answer is completely non responsive to the original question.  It was shown to be true that the city was planning an ordinance to extend the hours of operation of on street parking meters, and other measures to 24 hours a day, seven days a week, not to prohibit parking on the street. So while the respondent is answering a question that was never asked, there is no answer to the question that was posed.  There is something very wrong with that answer that should arouse everyone's suspicions.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: chipwich on September 11, 2008, 01:26:52 AM
Come on guys.  You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

Who needs downtown parking!  Seriously.  Just take one of our many metro lines into downtown.

Oh...wait. Yeah, I see what you are getting at here.



Very well then.  I guess the City of Jacksonville just really wants people to walk to downtown.

Let's all write emails thanking the City for looking out for our health and well-being.  When I loose some weight, I for one am sending parking enforcement a thank you card as gratitude. 
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: rjp2008 on September 11, 2008, 10:38:34 AM
So it sounds like they would like to upgrade the parking meters technology - pay stations that dispense stickers perhaps - and to do so, it would obviously require EXTENDING PAID PARKING REQUIREMENTS into Nights and Weekends to pay for it.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 11, 2008, 10:52:05 AM
If that's the case and its the only option, then we should not purchase smart meters.  The downtown district would be better off yanking all the meters up and selling or recycling the scrap metal.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 11:39:40 AM
Either scrap the meters or scrap the remaining buildings. Note that yesterdays revelation that their is no longer a single entry door or display window left between Duval and Union Street was incredible. So where are all the people? They are inside working. Why do they stay inside? Because there is nothing for them outside...

Yank the meters, regulate the times and jack up the garage rates... simple. In the end, the city recovers much more as parking division employees can be reassigned as community service officers, or given other choices, and the division phased out and absorbed by JTA. JTA could then regulate the garage rates so that parking in the urban edge and using transit, would be a savings over parking in the core. We then earn extra income from tax paying and thriving downtown businesses once again.

Meanwhile, with limited hourly, 2 or 3 hour parking, the shop keepers could knock some doors and windows back into the blank walls of the downtown canyons. Besides, I miss that "STAND AND SNACK" Chicken Salad sandwich, the shoe shop and the juice guy...  

 
OCKLAWAHA

Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 01:15:17 PM


Yank the meters, regulate the times and jack up the garage rates... simple. In the end, the city recovers much more as parking division employees can be reassigned as community service officers, or given other choices, and the division phased out and absorbed by JTA. JTA could then regulate the garage rates so that parking in the urban edge and using transit, would be a savings over parking in the core. We then earn extra income from tax paying and thriving downtown businesses once again.

Meanwhile, with limited hourly, 2 or 3 hour parking, the shop keepers could knock some doors and windows back into the blank walls of the downtown canyons. Besides, I miss that "STAND AND SNACK" Chicken Salad sandwich, the shoe shop and the juice guy...


this isn't well thought out, you would still need parking enforcement people, someone needs to watch how long the cars are parked. again your adversarial view towards cars hinders any validity of your ideas, chasing cars away is chasing people, potential customers away. The idea is to compete with the strip malls in the burbs and
by making it more difficult for people to park is not an attraction. I know you love transit but for most people mass transit is something to be endured and people rarely embrace it when going out on the town.
That said, a viable transit system could lure the people who work in the core to it, but it needs to be efficient and economically viable in order to compete with the comfort and flexibility of driving to work.

unfortunately those overly romantic views of the past are gone and more than likely they'll never return
it would be wiser to focus on intermodal solutions than to try and demonize autos like you do

Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 01:20:54 PM
If they need to raise money, then the obvious thing to do is to raise a tax on every parking space in a single level parking lot.

Those parking lots become 'undevelopable' because the owners are already pulling free money off of them by having torn down the buildings and then collecting free, untraceable money.

If the city of Jacksonville was serious about any of this, they would immediately institute a dollar a month tax on every parking space in these iniquitous old lots, and provide both cash for the city as well as an incentive to find a higher profit use for the land.

you are right and you are wrong, I can't be certain but every urban property owner I've known only uses parking lots on their property as a temporary use. If the properties in the core are being used as parking lots it is because of a few possible reasons like being unable to get permits, trying to assemble a larger tract to build on or constructing a building doesn't make economic sense. You could add a parking tax per space, but that might be fought by the lot owners, the properties already should be paying property taxes. You can be sure that if the property owners could make more money by building on their lots than running a parking lot, they would build but right now there is not enough of a critical mass in the core to spur new building there.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 03:40:51 PM
Apvbguy.

Thanks for the input.

If I can elaborate a little on Ocklawaha's post I would like to make a couple of points that have been made ad infinitum in earlier phases of our ongoing discussion of parking in downtown.

I don't think Ocklawaha or any of us on this board (with the exception of Michael Llewyn, the noted urban policy theorist) are anti car in the slightest.

It bears keeping in mind that the parking conversation is what destroyed the majority of our downtown.

There are several wonderful photos elsewhere on the site (perhaps Lake or Lunican can be prevailed upon to repost them in this thread) which show how densely built out the downtown was at one time.

However, as the majority of people began using cars, the question of where to store all of them started becoming an insurmountable problem.

Mayor Burns temporarily solved the problem by building municipally owned parking lots out over the river.  While this worked for a couple of decades, as the spread of autos coincided with urban sprawl led to the majority of the retail and entertainment customers that used the centralized downtown coming from OUTSIDE the downtown area---the capacity for parking could not keep up with the demand.

So the solution shifted to building garages, the history of which has been a fiasco.  If the city had actually delivered on Municipal multi story garages 30 years ago, it would have worked.  Instead, gross incompetence and welched deals left behind the smoking ruins of multiple deals while the suburban malls began to offer free parking much closer to the suburbs which were spreading out exponentially.

So then the city tried several disastrous do-overs of the downtown.

Burns, and Godbold decided that Downtown could compete by being the corporate/administrative/large arena events center and leave the retail and entertainment to the burbs.

Renovation after renovation project led by the city led to wholesale destruction of the fabric of downtown's business base.

The entire time, the Parking enforcement people pursued a policy based on the idea that since there were only 20 thousand parking spaces (at the time) and 100 thousand people needing to use them, that it would only allow each visitor an average of an hour and a half downtown.  Turning and burning so that the shops and businesses could get the maximum amount of traffic.

What this led to was a series of draconian laws which were based on the extreme competition for spaces.

By the 1980s, the strategy which our blundering city fathers decided on was to put all the parking on the peripheral areas of downtown and use mass transit to get people from their cars to their destinations.

However, starting with the Hemming Park Disaster, the River City Fizzle, the complete razing of La Villa and the massive failure of retail at the Landing, downtown emptied completely out.

The corporatae people all moved to the Southside and the retail/entertainment left for the regional hubs/malls.

The towers began to empty and the remaining buildings became a tax liability.

It was literally cheaper to tear them down and turn them into a profit producing parking lot than it was to maintain them and pay the increased property taxes levied to support the very institutions (like the DDA) which were actually destroying the downtown.

For some reason, Parking never got the Memo, and were still trying to produce the same amount of revenues despite the decline in visitors.   In 14 years the number of people working downtown went from 80 thousand people to today's 18 thousand.  

But the enforcement people never slowed down a bit.  they were like a swarm of fleas that did pretty well when the place used to be a kennel, but now were left with only a couple of stray dogs left behind.

For years they simply harrased and completely destroyed the customer base of every new shop that opened or relocated downtown.  As soon as a new place would open, there would be a whole new crop of customers parking in the area.

The Parking parasites glutted themselves on the new customers until they stopped coming.  No one could afford to pay increasing fees every time they came downtown.  They went elsewhere.  They new shop would close, and the whole cycle would repeat itself at a slower and slower rate.

This went on, with the downtown most abandoned until the miraculous return to the historic neighborhoods began to happen.

For decades the neighborhoods surrounding downtown had been ghettos.  Poverty, high crime, and no real base of customers that would support a retail/entertainment district.

First Riverside, then San Marco, then Five Points then finally Springfield and Durkeeville began to revive.

Last to the ballgame, residential began to be built downtown. Beginning with a highly attractive Loft Scene in the early 2000s, the hip living environs encourage resident to come to The Carling, 11 east, the Metropolitan, Berkman Plaza and a few other places.

Now, for the first time there are enough of a nearby base in the demographics to support a vibrant downtown.

Except that the downtown can't get anything off of the ground because of the parasites at parking sucking the life out of every new place that comes along and closing them down before a real scene can come along.

Which brings us to the present.   Through study and the stunning failures and mistakes of the past, the people on this board are determined that this time we do it right, make it sustainable, and not repeat the mistakes of the past.  After all they started as solutions.

Ocklawaha doesnt mean to be anti car.  But the whole thing works better with a transit system in place.  It helps you plan for a successful future.

JAX is just a microcosm of just about every other urban area in the US. The facts are that the people want cars, they will use their cars and they will go where using their cars is not impediment and trying to change that fact is like pissing in the wind.
transit can have a place in JAX, but transit is only a part of the larger picture, one reason the core is suffering and outlying areas are thriving is because the suburbs have the roads and parking that make auto use easy and efficient while the core has not been able to efficiently mesh autos into it's mix.
whatever the historical reasons are means little in the push for the future of the core. If the core continues to be unable to adapt it's future is not good
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Lunican on September 11, 2008, 03:44:05 PM
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 11, 2008, 03:50:26 PM
Or for that matter remove all meters so that...
Quote
roads and parking that make auto use easy and efficient
for downtown.  Because we want to...
Quote
efficiently mesh autos into it's mix.
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 04:08:28 PM
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.
if you are responding to me, no I think if the city wants to regulate street parking on nights and weekends it's ok providing reasonable time limits are used, if 30 or 60 minute limits are used then it is a bad plan
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 04:09:12 PM
apvbguy.

Im sorry, I don't see where anyone has spoken about getting rid of cars?

Are you sure you are posting on the correct thread?

The point is that the additional taxes levied only on downtown car users are killing all growth in that area.

As far as I can tell you are making a point that no one has raised in a way that has nothing to do with the thread.

read for comprehension
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: thelakelander on September 11, 2008, 04:22:54 PM
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.
if you are responding to me, no I think if the city wants to regulate street parking on nights and weekends it's ok providing reasonable time limits are used, if 30 or 60 minute limits are used then it is a bad plan

So you're for the city placing parking meters and regulating on-street parking on nights and weekends all across town or just downtown?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: kirkerer on September 11, 2008, 04:41:59 PM
I know a solution that works pretty well !
(http://luke-01.jpg)

Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 07:38:59 PM
Have no fear, we'll start with a regional transit authority, then we'll post the $5.oo per hour, meters on every street in Ponte Vedra!  

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: apvbguy on September 11, 2008, 09:15:23 PM
Have no fear, we'll start with a regional transit authority, then we'll post the $5.oo per hour, meters on every street in Ponte Vedra!  

OCKLAWAHA

now use the classist argument, my you are way too predictable!

one good thing about $5 meters is that it will lessen the whining over beach access because instead of crying that there is no parking people will cry about it being too expensive, putting in meters like that might help to lower my property taxes, maybe you're onto to something!
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 11:32:36 PM
Only I'm as serious as YOU ARE... hee hee, let's just put em all over the metro.

NO ESCAPE! And Toll booths for anyone entering the area with an out of Metro Tag. Make JTA Transit FREE to all and fund the whole city with new rail, bus etc... I love it.

Now would you PLEASE answer Mr. Dare over on my Right!


OCKLAWAHA
gee, I'm I REALLY related to Marx?
Title: Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
Post by: DetroitInJAX on September 12, 2008, 12:53:13 AM
Welcome to Jacksonville, Bold New City of the South.

Even Detroit can get this right....

Did you all hear that?  DETROIT, the anus of the US, is making more progress than our fair city....... AND the mayor just resigned in disgrace.

What a load of crap, honestly.  I've emailed my councilmember.