The Jaxson

Community => History => Topic started by: BridgeTroll on January 26, 2016, 03:35:59 PM

Title: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 26, 2016, 03:35:59 PM
As interesting as the map is... the statistics and advertisements along the edges are extremely informative... many old names etc... Includes water depths... Indian mound locations... old forts...

Quote
-  Shows ranges, townships and sections and names of some residents. -  LC Land ownership maps, 75 -  Available also through the Library of Congress Web site as a raster image. -  Includes index, text, distance table, land index, statistics and advertisements. -  Copy imperfect: Torn along fold lines, sectioned in 4, taped on verso along fold lines, and mounted on cloth backing.

http://www.loc.gov/resource/g3933d.la000075/
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: FlaBoy on January 26, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
Cool.  8)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: spuwho on January 26, 2016, 04:29:31 PM
I love old maps. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: spuwho on January 26, 2016, 10:14:19 PM
When I see an old map my instinct is to look for Fort Caroline notations.

This one says for one spot:

"Confederate Fort"
"US Fort"
"French Fort Caroline 1567" (twice)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1697/24637540065_1653cc24e9_z.jpg)

If I read this map correctly, that would put it at the base of the bluff next to St Johns Creek.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1490/24269955479_dba8de30a6_z.jpg)

How about a listing for the "Site of Spanish Fort" on Empire Point. This map has all kinds of easter eggs.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1512/24637828805_26f50d5e52.jpg)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: acme54321 on January 26, 2016, 10:51:54 PM
I'd imagine the Spanish fort is a misplaced San Nicholas.  This map predates the shipyards that were on what is now Bishop Kenny.  When dredging the shipyards they found some artifacts that would indicate the fort was there vs empire point.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: coredumped on January 26, 2016, 10:57:07 PM
Awesome! Thanks so much for this bridge. I spent way too much time looking at it.
Some things that stood out:

(http://i.imgur.com/oDnOBmF.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IYhNZuq.jpg)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: civil42806 on January 27, 2016, 08:55:07 AM
Interesting Map, found my mothers familys old homestead up north amongst all the starrets
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2016, 09:05:28 AM
Interesting Map, found my mothers familys old homestead up north amongst all the starrets

That's very cool!  There is a lot of stuff on this map...
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2016, 09:08:35 AM
Looks like Z. Kingsley owned most of what is now San Jose...
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: SunKing on January 27, 2016, 09:39:27 AM
this is fantastic.  how would one obtain a full scale copy?
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2016, 09:43:39 AM
Just found the wreck of the C.S. Maple Leaf just off Ross Point... nearby along the shoreline in Mandarin shows a house labeled H.B. Stowe...   8)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2016, 09:47:35 AM
this is fantastic.  how would one obtain a full scale copy?

Perhaps you can order one through the Library of Congress...  It is downloadable for free...

http://www.loc.gov/item/2012592401/#about-this-item
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2016, 09:59:43 AM
Found this on the map too...

http://www.flpublicarchaeology.org/civilwar/monuments/jacksonville-evergreen-cemetery/captain-camp-mooney-cemetery
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: coredumped on January 27, 2016, 06:45:41 PM
On the link provided, there's a download TIFF at the top, warning really large file:)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: SunKing on January 28, 2016, 03:32:52 PM
Great thanks!
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on January 28, 2016, 06:04:37 PM

Two and a half feet deep at the mouth of Fishweir Creek- this confirms other notes, observations that the creek mouth was 'always' shallow. This map was a part of the somewhat recent US Army Corps Of Engineers Fishweir Creek Restoration analysis.

Previously existing shallow condition a hint, why just a relatively small amount of development induced siltation has 'filled' the creek,Fishweir creek Woodmere road homes,Little Fishweir creek homes,among others, built on former marsh shoreline.

Looks like a number of stand alone wetland islands throughout the county have disappeared.

At one time I was involved in Title Insurance/Title Abstract and it was fun to run a parcel's history all the way back to the basic maps,Grants.

Thanks for Sharing Bridgetroll!
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 29, 2016, 06:44:20 AM
Check out the dotted line from Fishweir/Ceder creek diagonally across Duval County labeled... "Proposed Florida Ship Canal 1883-84"
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 29, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Finally actually downloaded the TIFF... great improvement of resolution!  So... found my house on Google Earth and noted the Lat-Long then referred to the map to try and locate but... something seemed off.  So I found a distinguishable landmark on both maps and have concluded that the 1898 version is about 1 minute of Longitude off.  So if something was at the 81* 46' longitude on Google Earth simply add 1 minute to make it 81* 47'...

I keep finding new stuff on this incredible map and to explore it fully I recommend downloading it...  8)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 29, 2016, 08:53:16 AM
Upon further review... the Longitudes are correct... my error seemed to occur with a couple of tears in the map... lol. :-[
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on January 29, 2016, 03:59:26 PM
Check out the dotted line from Fishweir/Ceder creek diagonally across Duval County labeled... "Proposed Florida Ship Canal 1883-84"

Likely one of the many proposed Cross Florida Canal routes.........finally ended up with preferred alternative and build in the 1960's.....Ocklawaha/Rodman Pool route
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on February 03, 2016, 08:34:47 PM

So,by 1898 "Cow Ford" gone- the St. Johns River Shoal  that accommodated, according to Legend, Cattle River Walk walk,gone..........dug out,'dredged'. Although nearby shallow water feature (later deepened) still evident.

Note too roadways and settlement located at present day Mill Cove, dirt berms.

Present day Southwest Avondale then undeveloped shore line,Roosevelt Publix et al location solid swamp,same for Ortega "Hunt" lands.

Imagine the general River Public Access opportunities,natural river/wetland system this era of presence,development  offered.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on February 03, 2016, 09:33:41 PM
the cow ford is still there. Its just a line where cows crossed the river.. It was just an economic activity, not a city name.
[/quote)



On this map circa 1898 I do not see St Johns River  waterway depth reference that would accommodate cow fording...walking from one shore to the other.

Where,precisely,was the river Cow Walk location? Assumed to be where the River shores squeezed closest together. Or simply legend?
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on February 03, 2016, 09:51:54 PM
the channel had to be dug.  it was wide and shallow, just the way that most of it still is.  but shallowest at the cow fording line. Charging a fee for it was how we paid for the Sheriffs.

 8) Fascinating. Thank you for the insight. Perhaps I have just missed most reference but such notes on the actual cow fording feature are a rarity.

We can note earliest area tributary crossings. Where specifically was the cow fording line?

Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Know Growth on February 09, 2016, 10:24:20 PM
the cow ford is still there. Its just a line where cows crossed the river.. It was just an economic activity, not a city name.

10/4

An "Imaginary Indian Metropolis"

Waca Pilatka

Vaca Pilatka   Cow Crossing 

Located per present day Liberty Street

Where the 'fording' cows imaginary too?

Don't forget tidal flow!.......We must assume that crossings typically occurred at low tide periods.

If in fact there existed a fordable river section, the shallow waters would have been historically defining, both as to ecosystem influence,specific feature and human efforts to deepen.

Imagine the present day narrow and deep sections of river tidal waters passing over 'fordable' waters at approximately Liberty Street.
A huge volume of water gushing over the shallow ford (shoal),even high tide periods would have produced 'rapids',convoluted water columns (Per acknowledged past Miami River 'rapids')

If a fordable shoal existed,when in fact did human efforts at deepening occur? Are there early maps or other depictions of a bonafide shore to shore fordable shoal?

It's 70 feet deep in front of the Landing,which might suggest a natural deep pool adjacent to shoal/water action.Or a result of human dredge efforts?

The Spanish erected Outposts well upstream-one at present day Clay County,one at present day St Johns County,in hopes of preventing an invasion via the St Johns River......1734. Apparently the existence of a natural shoal blockage to vessel passage was of no consequence.Or perhaps passage over the 'ford'/shoal occurred at high tide? By the 1850's the 260 ton,140 foot steamboat "Magnolia" was making runs between Palatka and Savannah. More 'ship' activity followed.Perhaps General Land office Survey maps circa 1835 might lend a hint to past river depth.

If a fordable shoal existed river hydrology must have been drastically altered as a result of human deepening.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Tacachale on February 09, 2016, 10:49:21 PM
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Tacachale on February 10, 2016, 09:41:16 AM
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 10, 2016, 10:16:30 AM
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

That's what I see Tach... I see a river clearly too deep and swift for cattle to wade across particularly at the narrow points near downtown.  Perhaps the shallow point for crossing was farther upstream but it still does not seem likely.  Do cattle ford rivers by swimming?  Could "cow" or "Vaca" or "waca" be slang or a descriptive term for the type of boat used in a ferry or crossing?
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: RattlerGator on February 10, 2016, 10:56:03 AM
Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

Hmmm . . . looks like local mythology bites the dust yet again.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Tacachale on February 10, 2016, 11:26:56 AM
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

That's what I see Tach... I see a river clearly too deep and swift for cattle to wade across particularly at the narrow points near downtown.  Perhaps the shallow point for crossing was farther upstream but it still does not seem likely.  Do cattle ford rivers by swimming?  Could "cow" or "Vaca" or "waca" be slang or a descriptive term for the type of boat used in a ferry or crossing?

Anything's possible. It could be that the English name was a total misunderstanding of an Indian or Spanish name. We do know that people did cross there as it was the crossing of the British King's Road, which was maintained into the Second Spanish period and the American period. However, cows can indeed swim, so it's possible they swam them over instead of fording them, and just used "Ford" for what the Creeks called "Crossing"/"Boat Crossing".

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/17/article-0-158C89B9000005DC-192_634x362.jpg)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 10, 2016, 11:30:00 AM
Hmmm... Water too deep?  Ferry or Ford the cattle across by boat...

(http://www.visitdunkeld.com/Latest%20Photos/Kyleakin%20Highland%20Cattle%20Ferry.jpg)

(http://www.wikigallery.org/paintings/387001-387500/387079/painting1.jpg)
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Tacachale on February 10, 2016, 03:38:58 PM
http://www.westlinnhistory.org/West_Linn_Historical_Society/History/Entries/2015/5/6_Crossing_the_River_-_Before_There_Were_Bridges.html

obviously, Bridge Troll. 

The Bartram Journals specifically called it the Cow Ford Ferry line.  The river was still shallow enough that the current wasn't too strong to make the straightest line possible, and it took an experienced person with that part of the river to cross it.

Surely no one thought that the cows were being walked across.?

Well, it's what "ford" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ford) means.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: David on February 15, 2017, 11:04:56 PM
Regarding the map: I like the ad for "Fire Insurance" at the bottom. The great fire of 1901 was an inside job!

Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on February 16, 2017, 05:29:30 AM
Regarding the map: I like the ad for "Fire Insurance" at the bottom. The great fire of 1901 was an inside job!


The ads are awesome...
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: spuwho on February 16, 2017, 07:54:32 AM
From some of history books I have read, the St Johns current was not very swift until they dredged the river after the Civil War.

The southbank was somewhat swampy and it gradually entered the river with the main original channel closer to the northbank.

In fact the first dredging increased the current so much it caused erosion on St Johns Bluff and parts of it fell in until they installed some rip rap to stop it.

Many think this is when the earthen remains of Ft Caroline were washed away.

So its possible at the time cattle could wade through the shallow parts of the southbank and then swim the narrow channel. With the currents so slow at the time, there was little threat to losing them.

When I lived in Chicago I read that they used to bring cattle over Wolf Point on the Chicago River. If you saw Wolf Point today you would say its not possible. But the currents back then were very slow and the banks very gradual. All the modifications by man have changed it so much its hard to tell just how rural it used to be.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: Adam White on February 16, 2017, 08:25:14 AM
What's the deal with Cecilville? It's up near Hidden Hills, yet there's no way it's Hidden Hills. Is it an area that was platted out but never developed? I grew up near there and don't think there are any streets laid out in a grid pattern.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: camarocane on February 16, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
Apparently Chamblin's is on the site of an old boarding school. "The Froebel Academy"
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: lastdaysoffla on February 18, 2017, 01:56:01 PM
I read in my research about a hand drawn map of the Mandarin area by Harriet Beecher Stowe. I think it was included in her book Palmetto Leaves. I have yet to pick up the book or find a picture of said map online. Anybody got a lead?
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: acme54321 on February 19, 2017, 09:05:50 PM
What's the deal with Cecilville? It's up near Hidden Hills, yet there's no way it's Hidden Hills. Is it an area that was platted out but never developed? I grew up near there and don't think there are any streets laid out in a grid pattern.

Yeah there are a number of areas on the map like that.  Check out Bayard.
Title: Re: Duval County Map 1898
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 12, 2019, 10:48:14 AM
Found a couple more old (1856) Jacksonville maps online...

https://collections.lib.uwm.edu/digital/collection/agdm/id/4710/rec/1

and 1879...

https://collections.lib.uwm.edu/digital/collection/agdm/id/6500/rec/3