The Jaxson

Community => Politics => Topic started by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 11:31:18 AM

Title: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 11:31:18 AM
Quote
But the reduction in police officers actually began in the 2010-11 fiscal year, which was the final budget year of John Peyton’s term, according to a Sheriff’s Office budget document and the City Council Auditor’s Office. During that year, 30 police officer positions were cut from the city’s general fund.

Brown took office in July 2011 and his first budget was for the 2011-12 fiscal year. The four budgets enacted during Brown’s term in office have cut 117 more police officer positions from the general fund, according to the Sheriff’s Office document and City Council Auditor Kirk Sherman.

Of those 117 cuts, 41 of the eliminated positions stemmed from the Duval County School Board and Jacksonville Port Authority deciding to stop contracting with the Sheriff’s Office to provide officers at their locations, Sherman said.

The school board set up its own in-house police department, so even though it no longer contracts with the Sheriff’s Office, schools still have police on campuses. Currently, the school board employs 52 school resource officers.

JaxPort also planned to set up its own police department, but a change in state law eliminated the need for JaxPort to do so, JaxPort spokeswoman Nancy Rubin said.

JaxPort has a contract with the Sheriff’s Office to hire off-duty officers, but no longer contracts with the Sheriff’s Office for assignment of full-time officers at the port.

Curry says violent crime is up because Brown hasn’t given enough money to the sheriff.

“Your budgets cut 147 police men and women,” Curry said at a televised Tuesday debate, echoing a charge made in stump speeches and campaign ads.

In four televised debates this campaign season, Brown has never rebutted Curry on the figure of 147.

But a budget document done by the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office details — year by year — how the city has cut the 147 police positions:

■ The number of police officers supported by the city’s general fund dropped by 30 positions during the 2010-11 fiscal year, which started Oct. 1, 2010, when Peyton was mayor and Brown was still a mayoral candidate.

■ In Brown’s first budget, which was for the 2011-12 fiscal year, the number of police positions dropped again by 41 in connection with changes related to the Duval County School Board and JaxPort. Those positions were vacant when the city eliminated them, Sherman said.

■ Brown’s next budget for the 2012-13 fiscal year brought another reduction, this time by 76 police positions. No police officers were laid off as a result of that cut, according to the City Council Auditor’s Office.

More on Link: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-05-14/story/mayor-didnt-cut-147-police-some-dropped-under-peyton-school-change#.VVSlvJOyw94.twitter (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-05-14/story/mayor-didnt-cut-147-police-some-dropped-under-peyton-school-change#.VVSlvJOyw94.twitter)
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 11:33:36 AM
So he didn't cut 147 officers, he only cut 117. Good to know.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 12:12:52 PM
I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but if memory serves correctly, weren't the majority of positions that they eliminated unfilled as it was?

The didn't reduce the actual force, with the exception of the CCS officers, as much as they cut the capacity of the force.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 12:38:23 PM
Tacachale,

If the FTU is correct, Curry was more than deceptive with the 147 number and Brown obviously believed Curry was right.

This is the break down, as I understand it, according to FTU:

30 were cut under Peyton
41 were cut from DCPS and Jaxport, which were contracted police from JSO. I call that a side business. So, the money for these police came from DCPS and JAXPORT not COJ directly. You can't blame COJ budget cuts.
76 weren't added ?

The article is a bit confusing. What do you think this means...

"■ Brown’s next budget for the 2012-13 fiscal year brought another reduction, this time by 76 police positions. No police officers were laid off as a result of that cut, according to the City Council Auditor’s Office."

@non-redneck westsider, what you wrote would make sense in light of the above quote. So, Curry is counting a lack of hiring police as a cut in the police force. Plus, he is counting police that have been replaced by DCPS (52) in his number.

Technically, it reads like no police were cut under Brown as a result of the budget.


Either way, Curry embellished. Brown, didn't defend.

Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 12:54:44 PM
Thanks for that TheCat. 

This leads us further down the rabbit hole and was in the back of my head last night.

During the debate last night, Mike Williams kept referring to the 'golden age' of 2011 before all of the cuts were supposedly made.  The only actual cuts to the force were the CCS Officers, and their main duty was to assist in matters that didn't require an actual badge.  Shortly thereafter, the JSO turned over all traffic matters of state roads to the FHP to reduce the impact that traffic related incidents that were stressing the already limited department.

This is why I dislike politiks.  There's a truth out there, but not a damn person actually knows what it is.  As I've believed all along in this sheriffs race, there's no reason that we can't do better with what's already there.  The days of requesting larger budgets need to end immediately.  And that's not just for JSO, it's for all public departments across the board.

People want to keep relating public city functions with standard corporate business practice and that's great.  Business budgets don't just increase because it's a new fiscal year.  They try to do as much as they can with what they have while still increasing profits.  Spending money on the business isn't the first priority.  Ever.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: mtraininjax on May 14, 2015, 01:14:16 PM
Quote
Its kind of despicable actually.

Its politics, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Gators312 on May 14, 2015, 01:21:24 PM
Quote
Its kind of despicable actually.

Its politics, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Like many issues, if the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't be singing the same tune.  But hey, it's my team so anything goes.   
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 01:24:05 PM
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Gators312 on May 14, 2015, 01:27:17 PM
Quote
Its kind of despicable actually.

Its politics, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Like many issues, if the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't be singing the same tune.  But hey, it's my team so anything goes.

actually I don't.  and this format doesn't really have a high tolerance for it anyways (obviously) because the truth will out.

Sorry Stephen, it's not always about you.. :o   You weren't who I was referring to.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 01:32:32 PM
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Except that the direct charge has been that 147 less cops were on the street.  And yet it turns out that a portion of those cops were actually private security at either the port or at the school board.  Those officers were replaced with other security (I'm sure we've all seen the stupid duval country school cops in traffic, slammed on the brakes and sweated that we were about to get busted for speeding only to realize that they're just damned truant officers.)

And the local cops aren't enforcing traffic laws on state roads anymore, so that freed up about the same number of cops that are having to do the paperwork and evidence collection that was being done by the community officers.

Id say that the whole concocted charge smells to high heaven.

I'm sure you would. Either way, I'm not sure many people will find "He didn't cut 147 officers, it was only 117" very comforting.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
^There's been a rash of violent crime in the city at large, if you hadn't noticed.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: brainstormer on May 14, 2015, 01:54:58 PM
This was in the paper a few weeks ago. Anyone know if these facts check out? If so, then complaining that officers were cut doesn't really make sense. If the overall budget continues to increase, then where is all of that money going?

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-04-27/story/questions-about-increase-murders-should-be-directed-sheriff (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-04-27/story/questions-about-increase-murders-should-be-directed-sheriff)

When Rutherford took office 12 years ago, the JSO budget was $247.8 million and accounted for 28 percent of the city’s general fund budget.

During the current fiscal year, Rutherford’s budget stands at $398 million. That now eats up 39 percent of the general fund.

And since Brown has been in office, the JSO budget has increased by $47.6 million, or 13.5 percent.

That’s during a time when other city departments have seen deep cuts to their budgets.

Rutherford often complains that his department has 147 fewer officers now, which is an exaggeration I’ve written about before, and Curry uses that number to hammer Brown.

But put that in perspective. JSO has 3,023 full-time employees. That’s 52 percent of the city’s entire workforce.

Considering the above, it’s legitimate to ask if Rutherford has been using his personnel wisely.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
This was in the paper a few weeks ago. Anyone know if these facts check out? If so, then complaining that officers were cut doesn't really make sense. If the overall budget continues to increase, then where is all of that money going?

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-04-27/story/questions-about-increase-murders-should-be-directed-sheriff (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-04-27/story/questions-about-increase-murders-should-be-directed-sheriff)

When Rutherford took office 12 years ago, the JSO budget was $247.8 million and accounted for 28 percent of the city’s general fund budget.

During the current fiscal year, Rutherford’s budget stands at $398 million. That now eats up 39 percent of the general fund.

And since Brown has been in office, the JSO budget has increased by $47.6 million, or 13.5 percent.

That’s during a time when other city departments have seen deep cuts to their budgets.

Rutherford often complains that his department has 147 fewer officers now, which is an exaggeration I’ve written about before, and Curry uses that number to hammer Brown.

But put that in perspective. JSO has 3,023 full-time employees. That’s 52 percent of the city’s entire workforce.

Considering the above, it’s legitimate to ask if Rutherford has been using his personnel wisely.

The article gets into that. There has been an increase in budget, but it's still not good news for Brown. Most of it goes toward mandatory payments - most importantly, the pension, which Brown hasn't been able to resolve.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 02:23:55 PM
Most of it goes toward mandatory payments - most importantly, the pension, which Brown hasn't been able to resolve.

I think you mean that the Council hasn't been able to resolve.  Since they are the only ones empowered to do so.

I think you both mean The City Government as a whole.  Since this isn't exactly an issue that's only affected the last few election cycles.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 02:43:20 PM
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Regardless, it's a cut regarding the DCPS and Jaxport is not the same as a cut to the police force.

JSO services were no longer needed. "Private" entities contracted with JSO and that contract ended.

I don't know that you can count 91 community officers, either. That was funded by a grant the grant ran out. We didn't have the money.

I agree with Littlepage. This whole argument is bs anyway. Rutherford is responsible. So, if you are going to play the blame game you have to look at Rutherford. If Rutherford thinks that more police will reduce crime we should have seen a bit more working the budget from him to make sure that happened.

Curry is pretending he will have something to do with the safety of this city. It's a false argument. He'll only be able to do what Brown is doing now. Curry is not running for Sheriff, thankfully.



Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 03:09:44 PM
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Regardless, it's a cut regarding the DCPS and Jaxport is not the same as a cut to the police force.

JSO services were no longer needed. "Private" entities contracted with JSO and that contract ended.

I don't know that you can count 91 community officers, either. That was funded by a grant the grant ran out. We didn't have the money.

I agree with Littlepage. This whole argument is bs anyway. Rutherford is responsible. So, if you are going to play the blame game you have to look at Rutherford. If Rutherford thinks that more police will reduce crime we should have seen a bit more working the budget from him to make sure that happened.

Curry is pretending he will have something to do with the safety of this city. It's a false argument. He'll only be able to do what Brown is doing now. Curry is not running for Sheriff, thankfully.

It was 47 positions that weren't reassigned or reorganized despite a need. Instead, the mayor produced budgets that cut even more officers the next year, and would have cut even more than that in 2013. And where do you get the idea that community service officers come from a grant? They were lost due to budget cuts.

Rutherford's hands may not be clean in this scenario, but the mayor sets the budget (or at least, they're supposed to).
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 03:21:30 PM
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Regardless, it's a cut regarding the DCPS and Jaxport is not the same as a cut to the police force.

JSO services were no longer needed. "Private" entities contracted with JSO and that contract ended.

I don't know that you can count 91 community officers, either. That was funded by a grant the grant ran out. We didn't have the money.

I agree with Littlepage. This whole argument is bs anyway. Rutherford is responsible. So, if you are going to play the blame game you have to look at Rutherford. If Rutherford thinks that more police will reduce crime we should have seen a bit more working the budget from him to make sure that happened.

Curry is pretending he will have something to do with the safety of this city. It's a false argument. He'll only be able to do what Brown is doing now. Curry is not running for Sheriff, thankfully.

It was 47 positions that weren't reassigned or reorganized despite a need. Instead, the mayor produced budgets that cut even more officers the next year, and would have cut even more than that in 2013. And where do you get the idea that community service officers come from a grant? They were lost due to budget cuts.

Rutherford's hands may not be clean in this scenario, but the mayor sets the budget (or at least, they're supposed to).

he produced budgets that gave the police a giant increase in revenue to a department managed by the Sheriff that also cut the numbers of officers that the sheriff didn't hire with the extra money?

Did he do this with the magic mayors wand that lenny is going to use to repeal obamacare?

The increase in the Sheriff's budget covers mandatory costs, notably, the pension. It couldn't be used to fund the 117 (+91) positions that were cut. And violent crime is still rising. In other words, thanks to Brown's budgets, we're spending more on the JSO and getting less for it.

However, it's a good question as to what Lenny will do about all this. He says he'll prioritize properly funding the JSO and resolving the pension fiasco. While there's probably a lot of fat-trimming that can be done on the management end, thanks to the way Brown has run the city, a real solution will likely require either belt-tightening for other departments, or new revenue.

Tough calls to make, and that goes for whichever one wins next Tuesday.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: JeffreyS on May 14, 2015, 04:01:17 PM
Sounds like Curry could have made a truthful claim that Brown could have added about 100 officers and didn't.  Why not go that route and score what points you can from that with no blow back? Now this claim makes him sound like a lying politico and Brown a budget conscious Mayor. Why frame it as such?
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 04:12:19 PM
Tacahale, I misunderstood about the community service officers. They are not grand funded.

They city does not micro-manage JSO's budget, though.

Before one can blame the mayor on JSO budgeting issues, we have to look at JSO directly. Do we need the extra tank  ;)

Look, polls tell Curry that crime is the most important issue to voters. All of his safety talk tracks are b.s. It's 1990s "crime fighting" talk that leads to more expensive and fruitless crime "fighting" policies. We just don't need this rhetorical fight on crime.

I'm looking at one of Curry's crime sucks direct mail pieces now.

It says "147 police officers fired".

It also says "Murder is up 35%, rape is up 36%, assault is up 21%" - how true do you think those numbers are? If they are accurate, maybe those numbers mean more people are reporting crime, which would =  success for Rutherford and Brown.
 
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Have you ever used statistics to fit the narrative that you're looking for?  Yeah, me neither.  ::)

Everyone continues to harp about these damn 147 positions.  Again, that's a cap # and not an actual number representing what's on the street.  The other thing that's obvious to anyone who doesn't mind looking is the HUGE spike in violent crime from '06-'07. 

I'm wondering if it takes a doctoral degree to be able to relate the dire economy with the spike in crime?  I don't have one, but unless it's just common sense, I probably deserve one. 

The other point that no one wants to mention is that from '10-'14 we're still well below the counts from '02-'06 by a minimum of 11% and we're again at similar cap #s.  (again, there's no representation of how many are actually filled)

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/docs/reports/201504-violent-crime-and-manpower.aspx

Since I love reading my own posts, I just repeat this again:  There's no reason that we can't do more with what we already have.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 04:20:51 PM

It also says "Murder is up 35%, rape is up 36%, assault is up 21%" - how true do you think those numbers are? If they are accurate, maybe those numbers mean more people are reporting crime, which would =  success for Rutherford and Brown.

See below. 

Depends on when you'd like to look to see whether it's up or down.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 04:29:39 PM
Neither Curry nor Brown, not to mention the next sheriff, will be able to get out from under the pension issue, which is where a good chunk of the JSO budget is going now. It's only going to suck up more and more money annually until we get a deal done, leaving less and less room for other things, like, you know, paying officers and crime prevention. This issue, and the overall budget, are the mayor's prerogative.

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state. There will always be ways to parse data differently. But it's difficult to argue the fact that violent crime is up and it's a major problem for our city.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 04:38:38 PM

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Tacachale on May 14, 2015, 04:43:05 PM

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx

Overall crime is in fact down since 2011. It's the violent crime stats that are up over the same period.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
Two kids shot on a school bus at 118th & Blanding, SMH...The issue with crime here is MUCH bigger than just bulking up the police presence. If the parents can't control these wild kids, how in the hell does anyone expect anyone else to? At that point, throw them in a cell? That's all you can do. The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/sources-2-students-shot-on-school-bus-in-westside/33027038
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: fsquid on May 14, 2015, 04:54:31 PM
on a schoolbus?  damn
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
Two kids shot on a school bus at 118th & Blanding, SMH...The issue with crime here is MUCH bigger than just bulking up the police presence. If the parents can't control these wild kids, how in the hell does anyone expect anyone else to? At that point, throw them in a cell? That's all you can do. The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/sources-2-students-shot-on-school-bus-in-westside/33027038

Throwing people in jail is expensive and does nothing to lower crime.

Prison is antiquated. It's costly, inefficient and does not increase public safety.

Quote
The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.


What?
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 05:02:34 PM

Overall crime is in fact down since 2011. It's the violent crime stats that are up over the same period.

Taca, I'm looking at the #s from the FDLE website.

The crimes they're using to constitute 'violent' are:  Murder, forcible sex, robbery, Aggravated Assault

The numbers tell the truth.  Since '11 the increases are as follows:  '11  '13  Total Change  % Change

Murder:  76  93  17  22%
Forcible Sex:  789  787 -2 <-1%
Robbery:  1664  1483  -181  -11%
Agg Assault:  3056  3166  110  3%

With a net drop of 1%

The only spike there is is in Forcible Sex.  That # increased from 238 in '09 to 705 the following year.   Almost a 200% increase (196.22%) which tells me that they had to have changed their metric on what constitutes that specific crime.

Everything that we're being told is nothing more than made-up fluff.  It's a shame there aren't any actual journalists out there willing to expose any of this, huh?

Edit:  Sourcing - https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/content/getdoc/ad060310-e277-4dc7-b6d5-9a26f582f481/Duval.aspx

Second Edit:  Reasoning behind the spike in Forcible Sex:

Quote
Note: On January 1, 2013, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) UCR Program implemented a new definition of Rape that includes incidents previously reported as Forcible Sodomy.  Therefore, beginning with the 2013 data, FDLE’s UCR modified the collection of Forcible Rape data to include forcible rape, attempted rape, and forcible sodomy. Florida has adopted a "Forcible Sex Offense" category that is not used at the Federal level. Florida’s Forcible Sex Offenses (FSO) include forcible rape, attempted rape, forcible sodomy, and forcible fondling. Users of this site will note that various reports will use either a Forcible Rape or a FSO category in Index Offenses. Through the 2012 data, when Forcible Rape is presented, it includes rape and attempted rape only, while forcible sodomy and forcible fondling are included in aggravated assault to comply with Federal UCR reporting guidelines.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 14, 2015, 05:06:52 PM
So.

No violent crime spike?

And a drop in crime across the board?


Correct.  Which makes you wonder why Mike Williams hasn't been pushing this agenda all along?

My answer is simply because if crime drops, then there's no reason to increase the budget of the department.  Which pretty much brings me full circle to my one and only point:  Do more with less.

Yet another edit:  The numbers as reported are for arrests and do not take into account the results of the actual sentenced crimes. 
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 05:15:14 PM
So someone commits a violent act with a gun, and just give them a warning, since the jailing process is so expensive?? Okay....I don't give a damn what color they are, and I didn't even bring it up Stephen; Sit there with your liberal self righteous asses, and act like some people aren't a drain on society...That shooter will live a life of crime; The ship done left the port, far as civility is concerned...So conjure up your race baiting BS, just so you can feel good about yourselves....I speak about real situations, not feel good politics...
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
The poor = crime BS is a MYTH BTW. There are plenty examples to support that.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 06:04:42 PM
So someone commits a violent act with a gun, and just give them a warning, since the jailing process is so expensive?? Okay....I don't give a damn what color they are, and I didn't even bring it up Stephen; Sit there with your liberal self righteous asses, and act like some people aren't a drain on society...That shooter will live a life of crime; The ship done left the port, far as civility is concerned...So conjure up your race baiting BS, just so you can feel good about yourselves....I speak about real situations, not feel good politics...

And you call your self a cat person.  :-[

Most people will not stay in jail for a lifetime, whether they use guns or not. You have a choice. You can spend $30k per year to keep them in a cage so that the person sent to prison comes out really "happy" with society. Or, you can spend half that amount and develop a rehabilitative process.

This isn't about the person who committed the crime. This is about the people who haven't. I don't need my tax dollars creating a larger problem in the name of sanctioned revenge. I need people that are on a crime road to find a non-crime road. Prison doesn't accomplish that objective.

So, you can get off your high horse. Your idea of justice creates a sicker, more crime-ridden society. If it was going to work, it would have worked. The united states leads the world in imprisonment. More than russia. more than china.

Comparisons by rate:

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
 (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All)

Comparisons by total population:

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
 (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All)

I'll let you google how many people are in prison for non-violent offenses. Then, please, surmise how justified the money we spend on being "tough on crime" is.


Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 06:24:37 PM
And you call your self a cat person.  :-[

Most people will not stay in jail for a lifetime, whether they use guns or not. You have a choice. You can spend $30k per year to keep them in a cage so that the person sent to prison comes out really "happy" with society. Or, you can spend half that amount and develop a rehabilitative process.

This isn't about the person who committed the crime. This is about the people who haven't. I don't need my tax dollars creating a larger problem in the name of sanctioned revenge. I need people that are on a crime road to find a non-crime road. Prison doesn't accomplish that objective.

So, you can get off your high horse. Your idea of justice creates a sicker, more crime-ridden society. If it was going to work, it would have worked. The united states leads the world in imprisonment. More than russia. more than china.

Comparisons by rate:

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
 (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All)

Comparisons by total population:

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
 (http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All)

I'll let you google how many people are in prison for non-violent offenses. Then, please, surmise how justified the money we spend on being "tough on crime" is.

So if someone shoots and murders a person with a smoking gun in hand, instantly put that person in a rehab program, with no disciplinary consequences...Yeah...This isn't freaking Scandinavia, so your feel good liberal utopian dreams of condoning violent felons will fall on deaf ears in this melting pot called the United States of America. 

I never said that non-violent (low level drug dealers etc) people should receive any harsh and significant jail time, you put those words in my mouth. I'm not on any 'high horse' you are with your liberal stance on everything. I'm an example of a person that came from absolutely nothing, and decided not to live a life of crime. Many people are un-rehabilitable, so keep on thinking that's the key to Shangri La....

Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 06:33:57 PM
Thankfully the injuries of the two girls that was shot on the bus are non-life threatening, and they are in stable condition.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/sources-2-students-shot-on-school-bus-in-westside/33027038

Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 14, 2015, 07:36:33 PM
Right, because the 2.2 million people in prison are there because they were caught with a smoking gun? Your point is irrelevant.

Do you understand, this has nothing to do with a feel good approach? This has to do with what actually works. Why do you insist on a criminal justice system that makes us less safe and costs us more money? That's ridiculous.

Since your going to bring up "Scandinavia" let's look at two of the nations that make up Scandinavia recidivism rates. That's the tell that let's you know if the system is working.

The United States:

Recidivism rate: 75 % are back in prison within 5 years. Nearly 70 percent are back within 3 years. About 57 percent were rearrested within the first year.

Source:  http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/Pages/welcome.aspx (http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/Pages/welcome.aspx)

Norway:

Recidivism rate: 20 percent.

Source:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12 (http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12)

Sweden:

Recidivism rate: 20 to 30 percent

Source:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/
 (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/)

This is an interesting article:

Incarceration Within American and Nordic Prisons: Comparison of National and International Policies

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/ (http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/)






Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: AKIRA on May 14, 2015, 07:57:48 PM
In reference to the firing of officers, I can't comment of the who or where.  I can say that I know of at least two classes of rookies (25 or so people per), who were working beats, called in a day or so before to report to the police station to turn in their equipment.. with Swat in plain clothes standing around in case the rookies went postal..  It falls on the sheriff to explain why he needs the budget he does, which includes a large, very well paid staff, and less beat officers..

I'm no fan of Brown, but that was not his circus..
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: I-10east on May 14, 2015, 09:10:13 PM
Right, because the 2.2 million people in prison are there because they were caught with a smoking gun? Your point is irrelevant.

Do you understand, this has nothing to do with a feel good approach? This has to do with what actually works? Why do you insist on a criminal justice system that makes us less safe and costs us more money? That's ridiculous.

Since your going to bring up "Scandinavia" let's look at two of the nations that make up Scandinavia recidivism rates. That's the tell that let's you know if the system is working.

The United States:

Recidivism rate: 75 % are back in prison within 5 years. Nearly 70 percent are back within 3 years. About 57 percent were rearrested within the first year.

Source:  http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/Pages/welcome.aspx (http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/Pages/welcome.aspx)

Norway:

Recidivism rate: 20 percent.

Source:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12 (http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12)

Sweden:

Recidivism rate: 20 to 30 percent

Source:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/
 (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/)

This is an interesting article:

Incarceration Within American and Nordic Prisons: Comparison of National and International Policies

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/ (http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/)

I said "IF" a person DEFINITELY murdered someone in cold blood, your laughable solution would be to give them a slap on the wrist with rehab. I did not say that all 2.2 million people in custody are 'definitely guilty' hopefully you understand what I said now... Norway and Sweden are a world away from the USA, those apples and oranges stats do not correlate, sorry.

Those Scandinavian countries are also polled to be some of the most 'happiest' places in the world, totally different world, and totally different culture. The US is much much much more diverse than Viking World also. You have many that are anti-9 to 5, and say it boldly and proudly. You have to be very naive if you think that everyone is capable of living in a civilized society. If you were in charge of the justice system, that naive 'everyone can go to rehab' approach would back fire, and crime would soar through the roof. I'm sure you'll also like for the criminals to have guns, and citizens do not have any....

How dare these 'redneck gun nuts' have any daggone guns!!!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-woman-wounded-in-shootout-with-wouldbe-robbers/25840016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ve6MhmeaY
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Kay on May 14, 2015, 09:21:52 PM
In reference to the firing of officers, I can't comment of the who or where.  I can say that I know of at least two classes of rookies (25 or so people per), who were working beats, called in a day or so before to report to the police station to turn in their equipment.. with Swat in plain clothes standing around in case the rookies went postal..  It falls on the sheriff to explain why he needs the budget he does, which includes a large, very well paid staff, and less beat officers..

I'm no fan of Brown, but that was not his circus..

Exactly.  I am no fan of he mayor either but Curry out of the gate blaming the mayor for the crime rate with Rutherford echoing it made me sick. 
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Jimmy on May 14, 2015, 10:58:03 PM
Well, the 147 number, which has been a fixture of Mr. Curry's campaign, was nowhere to be heard tonight.

Apparently today's reporting knocked Mr. Curry off that incorrect talking point. And it left his response on crime tonight hollow.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: JeffreyS on May 15, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
I still think he made a lot of headway with the 147. More people heard the lie than the truth. Brown has himself and his campaign to blame for not jumping on it.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: mtraininjax on May 15, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
147 or 117, who really cares? People are dying on the streets, people feel less safe, and the perception is that Mayor Brown has not cared for 4 years, but is now, finally only caring because his next job is on the line.

Makes for great drama. 4 days til its over.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: strider on May 15, 2015, 08:26:48 AM
Well, the 147 number, which has been a fixture of Mr. Curry's campaign, was nowhere to be heard tonight.

Apparently today's reporting knocked Mr. Curry off that incorrect talking point. And it left his response on crime tonight hollow.

Perhaps Brown's camp finally read what others were finding out about it and so Curry knew he couldn't use it any more.  I wonder what is really worse.  Curry using incorrect info provided by JSO or Brown not being able to figure out it wasn't very accurate.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2015, 08:38:02 AM
What's definitely worse is Rutherford and JSO providing incorrect information in order to swing the outcome of 1 or even 2 elections.  That's definitely what's worse in this analysis.

Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: JeffreyS on May 15, 2015, 08:39:58 AM
I was critical of how Curry used the 147 strategy. However without Brown ever hitting back and the subject being dropped as soon as the truth came out perhaps it was in fact masterfully done.
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 15, 2015, 07:18:06 PM
147 or 117, who really cares? People are dying on the streets, people feel less safe, and the perception is that Mayor Brown has not cared for 4 years, but is now, finally only caring because his next job is on the line.

Makes for great drama. 4 days til its over.

It's more like 147 or 0, who cares?

Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 15, 2015, 07:22:46 PM

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx

were you able to find any reports on crime for 2014?
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 15, 2015, 07:24:31 PM
90 murders according to action news.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/90-murders-duval-county-2014/njRTC/ (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/90-murders-duval-county-2014/njRTC/)
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 15, 2015, 07:43:30 PM

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx

were you able to find any reports on crime for 2014?

This is a 'report' that appears to have been generated specifically for the electoral discussion (due to the time it has appeared and that there are no other reports like it).  It lists 96 murders for '14, but this isn't official as we have no way to confirm that these are the numbers that will be submitted to FDLE.

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/docs/reports/201504-violent-crime-and-manpower.aspx
Title: Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
Post by: TheCat on May 15, 2015, 10:44:17 PM
Thanks!