The Jaxson

Living in Jacksonville => The Arts => Music => Topic started by: johnnyliar on April 15, 2015, 11:03:23 AM

Title: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: johnnyliar on April 15, 2015, 11:03:23 AM
http://folioweekly.com/cover-banned,12365 (http://folioweekly.com/cover-banned,12365)

From Folio Weekly:
Quote
I tried to reconcile this. How a wonderful festival, geared toward uniting the brightest and most creative minds with investors and financiers, that relies on artists and musicians to attract a crowd to what would otherwise be a yawn-inducing series of startup pitchmen lining the streets with their Next Big Thing, would admit musicians who play other people's music and place them in the most visible spot in the fest.

It's shameful.

As a member of the band that received the most votes in the music category if you exclude Cover Bands, you could easily guess which side of the debate I stand on.

I'd just like to hear what everyone else thinks.

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: acme54321 on April 15, 2015, 11:12:17 AM
I think that little paragraph sums up One Spark pretty well ;D
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: WarDamJagFan on April 15, 2015, 11:27:15 AM
I wasn't able to make it this year to One Spark, but we went last year and heard a band called Herd of Watts at one of the downtown bars (can't remember which one). Don't know if they were in the voting, but they were VERY good. They've definitely got talent. 
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Tacachale on April 15, 2015, 11:36:22 AM
Yeah, I don't know how you'd legislate something like that, but I hope that in the future a festival like One Spark will focus on bands that play original material.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: CityLife on April 15, 2015, 11:43:03 AM
Yeah, I don't know how you'd legislate something like that, but I hope that in the future a festival like One Spark will focus on bands that play original material.

I think it would be pretty easy. Just put in the contest guidelines that no cover bands are eligible to win any financial awards.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Bridges on April 15, 2015, 11:50:10 AM
I dunno.  If you mix in a few originals with some covers done in your own personal style then I think its ok.  Everyone, from the largest bands on down, covers songs.  Strangerwolf did a cover of Coldplay's Clocks, but made it their own style.  If you're talking a straight cover band like Get the Led Out, or Mini-Kiss, then I have a problem.  But I wouldn't rule out a Jazz band that covers rock songs (like the Bad Plus).

There was a band (won't name who) that was stuck in the Trio Lot for a long time.  They had maybe 3 songs in their repertoire.  They kept repeating them over and over, including the covers.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: hiddentrack on April 15, 2015, 12:05:36 PM
Right or wrong, I think the answer is in the question. One Spark "relies on artists and musicians to attract a crowd" and having "musicians who play other people's music" is a way to pull people in with something familiar.

The band I think we're discussing here was one of the bands at last year's After Dark events, and they were very well-received from what I remember. My guess would be that One Spark was happy to have them this year as creators, and put them front and center to help bring crowds that would mingle around other creators. I'm guessing a familiar cover is one way to go about that.

(Sidenote: It was certainly less shameful than one of the creators near Hemming Park who would set off a loud siren to get people's attention. I'd watch people look around to see if they needed to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle, and that creator would then pounce once people were looking in his direction. I wish I could remember the project, but it made me wish there was a way to down-vote a creator...)

I don't know where you draw the line. I'd like to see a more emphasis put on the quality of the projects. There were a few projects I couldn't make heads or tails of, and even when I pulled up their info in the One Spark app, I still had no idea what they were looking to be funded for.

If this band has an album full of original material, I think that's what they should've focused on. My guess is they went with their regular set that's made them popular.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Spitfire on April 15, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
(Sidenote: It was certainly less shameful than one of the creators near Hemming Park who would set off a loud siren to get people's attention. I'd watch people look around to see if they needed to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle, and that creator would then pounce once people were looking in his direction. I wish I could remember the project, but it made me wish there was a way to down-vote a creator...)

That was The City.Guide. They ended up taking first place in the Technology category.

A few members of my family attended for the first time this year and left with a really bad taste because of that Creator group. Apparently, one of their team members approached and told them about the project, and then were pressuring them into voting on the spot. The issue with that is a ton of my younger nieces and nephews were with them, and voting right then and there was not a possibility while keeping an eye on the kids. The guy said things like "why are you here if you aren't voting?" and "the whole point of being here is to vote" in a very condescending tone when told that my family members had checked in and planned to vote when they got home.

As someone who has attended all 3 years of One Spark, I had to assure them that the type of behavior that they experienced wasn't the norm and they shouldn't let it ruin their day. It's one thing to promote your idea and project, and another to be a total jerk.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Jax native on April 15, 2015, 06:01:27 PM
(Sidenote: It was certainly less shameful than one of the creators near Hemming Park who would set off a loud siren to get people's attention. I'd watch people look around to see if they needed to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle, and that creator would then pounce once people were looking in his direction. I wish I could remember the project, but it made me wish there was a way to down-vote a creator...)

That was The City.Guide. They ended up taking first place in the Technology category.

A few members of my family attended for the first time this year and left with a really bad taste because of that Creator group. Apparently, one of their team members approached and told them about the project, and then were pressuring them into voting on the spot. The issue with that is a ton of my younger nieces and nephews were with them, and voting right then and there was not a possibility while keeping an eye on the kids. The guy said things like "why are you here if you aren't voting?" and "the whole point of being here is to vote" in a very condescending tone when told that my family members had checked in and planned to vote when they got home.

As someone who has attended all 3 years of One Spark, I had to assure them that the type of behavior that they experienced wasn't the norm and they shouldn't let it ruin their day. It's one thing to promote your idea and project, and another to be a total jerk.

I was at One Spark each day, and I could write a book about that one total jerk with light blue, City.Guide t-shirt.  He's tall white kid who was the most obnoxious person I saw at One Spark any day of the week.  I wanted to down vote them also. I will just say "obnoxious jerk " is probably the nicest adjectives I can use for him. 
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 15, 2015, 06:07:05 PM
Say what you will about their 'tactics', but they received almost twice as many votes as second place and earned +$16k in funding....

Technology:
The City.Guide - $16,634.94 - 1,277 votes
AA Leather Bible Bindery & Custom Leather Shoppe - $825.79 - 645 votes
Snap Decision App - $620.95 - 485 votes

I'm usually obnoxious for free.  That guy earned $16k.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Jax native on April 15, 2015, 10:26:56 PM
Say what you will about their 'tactics', but they received almost twice as many votes as second place and earned +$16k in funding....

Technology:
The City.Guide - $16,634.94 - 1,277 votes
AA Leather Bible Bindery & Custom Leather Shoppe - $825.79 - 645 votes
Snap Decision App - $620.95 - 485 votes

I'm usually obnoxious for free.  That guy earned $16k.

"That guy earned 16K".  hahahahahahhhahahah  Sorry, Red Neck.........That guy won ZERO!  About 30 -40 people had City.Guide t-shirts on. That guy was just a clueless tool running around.  he did NOT get the votes.  You're going to have to work harder at trying to prove me wrong. 
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 15, 2015, 11:27:23 PM
Say what you will about their 'tactics', but they received almost twice as many votes as second place and earned +$16k in funding....

Technology:
The City.Guide - $16,634.94 - 1,277 votes
AA Leather Bible Bindery & Custom Leather Shoppe - $825.79 - 645 votes
Snap Decision App - $620.95 - 485 votes

I'm usually obnoxious for free.  That guy earned $16k.



"That guy earned 16K".  hahahahahahhhahahah  Sorry, Red Neck.........That guy won ZERO!  About 30 -40 people had City.Guide t-shirts on. That guy was just a clueless tool running around.  he did NOT get the votes.  You're going to have to work harder at trying to prove me wrong.

Oh yay.  So you want to start an internet argument with someone after parsing a general statement over what?  Generalities?

That guy was representing The City.Guide
The City.Guide received $16k
That guy helped earn the $16k.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: marty904 on April 16, 2015, 07:22:35 AM
An even bigger issues of whether One Spark should allow cover bands to compete as creators (seeing how they aren't "creating" anything)  is that the legal implications are obviously not considered here.  As a long time member of ASCAP, I can tell you that it is illegal to perform cover songs without obtaining permission from one of the performing rights organizations (PRO). Furthermore, if an artist is receiving compensation for performing those cover songs, there is even more liability.

“Anyone who plays copyrighted music in a public establishment is required to obtain advanced permission from the copyright owner, or their representative.”  The responsibility for procuring this license usually falls on the venue or organization hosting the band. Owners of performance venues purchase license agreements from one or all of the big PRO's.

So technically, all those performances of "Dirty Diana" (and all the other tunes) should have been licensed in order to perform them in public.

I'm no attorney however I've experienced both the receiving end of being an ASCAP member, for songs I've co-produced and published; as well as on the paying end for venues I've operated. The PRO's don't play...
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: hiddentrack on April 16, 2015, 08:56:05 AM
For the benefit of themselves, for creators, and for people in attendance, it might be worth One Spark putting together a Creator Code of Conduct. I see they have some "Creator Rules" but they look more like regular T&Cs rather than something that governs standards of behavior.

Specific to musical performances, it could help level the playing field among musicians by requiring artists to display/perform their own works. I don't see anything unreasonable about that. Projects that are focused on something like music education could be exempt from that requirement, assuming it doesn't put One Spark in any legal hot water for the reasons @marty904 mentions.

A Code of Conduct would also be useful to spell out acceptable behavior so the event doesn't turn into something that starts turning people off. If people correlate the "success" of The City.Guide with their tactics, we could start seeing some very questionable behavior from creators in the future. Before this year, I never thought about One Spark turning into some type of cheesy trade show, but now I'm not so sure it won't happen.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 16, 2015, 09:24:09 AM
A Code of Conduct would also be useful to spell out acceptable behavior so the event doesn't turn into something that starts turning people off. If people correlate the "success" of The City.Guide with their tactics, we could start seeing some very questionable behavior from creators in the future. Before this year, I never thought about One Spark turning into some type of cheesy trade show, but now I'm not so sure it won't happen.

I believe I understand where you're coming from with this, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the general concept of earning 'votes' to win a prize has never been one of just letting the product speak for itself. 

And don't take that as I believe it takes high-pressure sales and bully tactics to sell something, but if you only have a short period of time to push your product, votes are free so there's no true fear of buyers' remorse, the reward strongly outweighs the risk of seeming pushy. 

Or....

Just buy the votes straight up.  Allocate a $6k 'marketing' budget and use social media to broadcast that the first 2,000 voters get a free beer.

Or....

You can just cheat.  I don't know the system that they have in place, but I'm pretty sure that I can run unlimited accounts from Bluestacks on my laptop and repeatedly download the app and vote once from each account.

Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 09:26:45 AM
An even bigger issues of whether One Spark should allow cover bands to compete as creators (seeing how they aren't "creating" anything)  is that the legal implications are obviously not considered here.  As a long time member of ASCAP, I can tell you that it is illegal to perform cover songs without obtaining permission from one of the performing rights organizations (PRO). Furthermore, if an artist is receiving compensation for performing those cover songs, there is even more liability.

“Anyone who plays copyrighted music in a public establishment is required to obtain advanced permission from the copyright owner, or their representative.”  The responsibility for procuring this license usually falls on the venue or organization hosting the band. Owners of performance venues purchase license agreements from one or all of the big PRO's.

So technically, all those performances of "Dirty Diana" (and all the other tunes) should have been licensed in order to perform them in public.

I'm no attorney however I've experienced both the receiving end of being an ASCAP member, for songs I've co-produced and published; as well as on the paying end for venues I've operated. The PRO's don't play...

One Spark might have paid for the licensing. I have no knowledge whether they did or not, but it would have been simple. I'd imagine for the whole festival it would only be $500 or less to ASCAP, BMI and SESAC.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: menace1069 on April 16, 2015, 09:30:16 AM
I have to agree with the majority here...cover bands are simply playing the music of someone else. As a musician of over 35 years, I have played in both cover and original bands. Cover bands should not be allowed at a festival that promotes creativity and originality, a festival that is trying to bring attention to the artist to further their career. OneSpark is perfect for original bands who are trying to do just that.  As an example, the Florida Music Festival, held in Orlando, promote the exposure of originality and only original bands.

IMO, while cover bands are great for bars, weddings and general background music/entertainment, they shouldn't be allowed to enter the competition.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: hiddentrack on April 16, 2015, 11:26:12 AM
A Code of Conduct would also be useful to spell out acceptable behavior so the event doesn't turn into something that starts turning people off. If people correlate the "success" of The City.Guide with their tactics, we could start seeing some very questionable behavior from creators in the future. Before this year, I never thought about One Spark turning into some type of cheesy trade show, but now I'm not so sure it won't happen.

I believe I understand where you're coming from with this, and I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the general concept of earning 'votes' to win a prize has never been one of just letting the product speak for itself. 

And don't take that as I believe it takes high-pressure sales and bully tactics to sell something, but if you only have a short period of time to push your product, votes are free so there's no true fear of buyers' remorse, the reward strongly outweighs the risk of seeming pushy. 

Or....

Just buy the votes straight up.  Allocate a $6k 'marketing' budget and use social media to broadcast that the first 2,000 voters get a free beer.

Or....

You can just cheat.  I don't know the system that they have in place, but I'm pretty sure that I can run unlimited accounts from Bluestacks on my laptop and repeatedly download the app and vote once from each account.

Fair point, being rude and obnoxious isn't as bad as being a cheater. ;) They're all things that would really sour the spirit of One Spark, so I hope it can be reined in before it becomes a bigger issue.

The very tight timeline is One Spark's big drawback. That 5-day period from Wed-Sun really doesn't provide much time for a sufficient number of meaningful connections with voters/contributors. If you look at the established crowdfunding sites out there, very very few projects are funded within days of launch, and really great projects sometimes come down to the wire or aren't funded at all. Sure, people can still contribute money to projects after One Spark is over, but success is entirely weighted toward what happens in that 5-day period.

Last year, a lot of attention was paid to how little money was paid out, relative to the goals of the creators. One Spark made an effort to improve in that area. This year, I came away turned off by some of the behavior I saw by creators, and it sounds like people also perceived a lack of fairness between creators within some categories. Just like a lack of funds could've reduced participation from creators, bad experiences will reduce interest and attendance. Hopefully it's something that someone at One Spark is keeping an eye on.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 17, 2015, 10:43:44 AM
What about the fact that there are no controls over the prize money when distributed? I could say i needed funding for whatever and then just spend it all on booze and strippers if I was so inclined.

True.

If I were going to go as a creator, my take is that the one's that are there to seriously push their idea/product should be there hoping the One Spark platform might put them in front of actual financiers.  Any money they're awarded at the festival would be considered a bonus and after securing the $500k from the angel investor, I might use all of my One Spark winnings on booze and strippers.  :)

Depends on the mindset I suppose.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Spitfire on April 17, 2015, 10:46:42 AM
What about the fact that there are no controls over the prize money when distributed? I could say i needed funding for whatever and then just spend it all on booze and strippers if I was so inclined.

This is the first year that I've been really concerned about that factor. The Top Contributions winner was STUFFEE, which was a project by the Hands On Children's Museum. So a huge check just went to a business in town that knowingly discriminates against GLBT.   
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Jax native on April 17, 2015, 01:43:59 PM
Say what you will about their 'tactics', but they received almost twice as many votes as second place and earned +$16k in funding....

Technology:
The City.Guide - $16,634.94 - 1,277 votes
AA Leather Bible Bindery & Custom Leather Shoppe - $825.79 - 645 votes
Snap Decision App - $620.95 - 485 votes

I'm usually obnoxious for free.  That guy earned $16k.



"That guy earned 16K".  hahahahahahhhahahah  Sorry, Red Neck.........That guy won ZERO!  About 30 -40 people had City.Guide t-shirts on. That guy was just a clueless tool running around.  he did NOT get the votes.  You're going to have to work harder at trying to prove me wrong.

Oh yay.  So you want to start an internet argument with someone after parsing a general statement over what?  Generalities?

That guy was representing The City.Guide
The City.Guide received $16k
That guy helped earn the $16k.

No, but why turn your words around??? You stated...."That guy make $16 K".   NO, he didn't.  That guy made nothing.  That "guy" doesn't work w/ City.Guide at all.  He was just wearing the free t-shirt they gave him.  I talked w/ City.Guide.  I know City.Guide.  That "guy" isn't City.Guide. 

Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 17, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
I talked w/ City.Guide.  I know City.Guide.  That "guy" isn't City.Guide.

Sorry Jax native, I didn't realize we were still discussing this...

https://www.youtube.com/v/ULGaOaln6Ao?
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Jax native on April 17, 2015, 11:15:21 PM
I talked w/ City.Guide.  I know City.Guide.  That "guy" isn't City.Guide.

Sorry Jax native, I didn't realize we were still discussing this...

https://www.youtube.com/v/ULGaOaln6Ao?

Because you didn't realize i had a life outside of waiting for MJ posts.  I'm not as near to my computer 24/7 as you may be.  I have "life" going on also. 

Walk it off, get some fresh air.  Turn off the computer and breathe. 
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Coolyfett on April 18, 2015, 06:28:01 PM
Lol cute
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: Andy on April 30, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
What about the fact that there are no controls over the prize money when distributed? I could say i needed funding for whatever and then just spend it all on booze and strippers if I was so inclined.

This is the first year that I've been really concerned about that factor. The Top Contributions winner was STUFFEE, which was a project by the Hands On Children's Museum. So a huge check just went to a business in town that knowingly discriminates against GLBT.

I didn't know that about Hands On... That does bug me. What if One Spark only reimbursed companies for money spent? I dunno, that has a lot of problems as well. I think there's got to be a way to ensure where the cash is going when it's handed over to a given creator.
Title: Re: The Issue of Cover Bands at One Spark
Post by: BennyKrik on May 01, 2015, 08:06:38 AM
I recently met with the city.guide sales rep to hear their sales pitch.

They charge $199 in start up fees and $99 per month to be listed in their directory. Young man showed me a rolodex of local companies who alright signed up with them. When you sign up, they list you in their directory, give you 500 free sales flyers, and create an app for your business which users can download from your webpage in their directory, which allows users to view your hours and promotions with one click. 

Well the page in directory is a simple copy and paste from your already existing Facebook page with business hours and description
If a potential customer downloads an app, the app itself is a mirror image of your listing in their directory.

If, let's say, you want to follow 10 local businesses with an app, you must download 10 apps!

I asked the young man how their business is different from Yelp/Urbanspoon, which are free services, he couldn't really answer. I think he only said well we are not in the business of user reviews. I later noticed my business was added to their directory without my permission AND they posted a $5 OFF coupon with $25 dollar purchase on my page; again, without my permission

So to sum this up, IMHO, this is a service that charges real money (not 'milk money'), they copy and paste from your face book page. They do not create any content.

Well Done, Jacksonville. Well Done, OneSpark