The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Urban Neighborhoods => Riverside/Avondale => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on December 10, 2014, 03:00:02 AM

Title: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on December 10, 2014, 03:00:02 AM
New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3027657294_tL5F5ds-M.jpg)

A 250-seat restaurant is proposed in Avondale that will require the demolition of an existing non-contributing building. Not everyone is happy about it.


Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-dec-new-avondale-restaurant-proposed-not-everyone-happy
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChriswUfGator on December 10, 2014, 06:44:45 AM
I'm really starting to take issue with the near-wholesale exclusion of commercial structures from the R/A and Springfield overlays. Respectfully, someone screwed the pooch.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: strider on December 10, 2014, 07:16:34 AM
As it is a non-contributing structure (circa 1948), they really can not stop the demolition.  The new building pretty much is open to design changes at this point and the actual report is consistent with the design guidelines and addresses what needs to be addressed.  The windows will be required to meet the guidelines and to be more constant with the contributing structures in scale.  Basically, the Staff and the HPC only can be concerned with design, the Planning Commission should only be concerned with zoning issues and so as to the number of seats, ETC., if it meets the criteria, it should be approved. We all have seen what happens in cases like this so it will be interesting to see if it turns into another Mellow Mushroom.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 10, 2014, 07:27:01 AM
I'm really starting to take issue with the near-wholesale exclusion of commercial structures from the R/A and Springfield overlays. Respectfully, someone screwed the pooch.

The building was constructed in 1950 after the historic district's period of significance (1909-1936) and was identified as having no historic significance under the National Register criteria.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/historic-preservation-guidelines-for-riverside---a.aspx (page 13 in link)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: spuwho on December 10, 2014, 07:28:11 AM
Does this mean more posts on the end of the world and orange tree urinals?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jcjohnpaint on December 10, 2014, 07:56:53 AM
I live two blocks from this structure and it looks like shit!  Anything would be an improvement. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: benfranklinbof on December 10, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
Its an urban neighborhood lol get over it! This is a great idea!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: PeeJayEss on December 10, 2014, 09:20:28 AM
I live two blocks from this structure and it looks like shit!  Anything would be an improvement.

Anything? What if it was an actual pile of feces?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: TPC on December 10, 2014, 09:30:41 AM
What property does Thad Crowe own? Also, WTF, he lives in Palatka.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: tufsu1 on December 10, 2014, 09:45:02 AM
^ He works in Palatka...doesn't mean he lives in Palatka
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 10, 2014, 10:01:14 AM
Quote
doesn't mean he lives in Palatka

And he doesn't live in Riverside/Avondale either... but as he notes in this letter, 'he plans on moving back soon'.

Just in context: Mellow Mushroom's main professional detractor was a hired planner from Clay County. Southern Kitchen's opposition is now being spearheaded by a planner from Palatka. In full disclosure, he should note as to whether he is receiving any compensation for these professional opinions.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 10, 2014, 10:04:15 AM
Also for context, the recommendation from COJ is consistent with the zoning approvals given to Mellow Mushroom Avondale.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 10, 2014, 10:09:39 AM
Not related to zoning considerations, but Southern Kitchen and Spirits is a concept from the founding Executive Chef of Restaurant Orsay, Brian Siebenschuh.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Gators312 on December 10, 2014, 10:16:50 AM
Thad Crowe - Former Nocatee planner, Former Clay County Planning & Zoning Director

A bit of irony.

Also as Field alluded to, he worked closely with Susan Fraser during his time in Clay.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on December 10, 2014, 10:32:07 AM
I live two blocks from this structure and it looks like shit!  Anything would be an improvement.

I also live two blocks away... As long as it is not a club similar to Fat Cats (Catz, Kats, whatever) I'll welcome whatever plans they have to demolish the structure. As long as it will bring a tennant.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JeffreyS on December 10, 2014, 10:39:25 AM
I'll just say I like it.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 10, 2014, 10:41:50 AM
Riverside/Avondale is a regional shopping, dining, cultural, and entertainment mecca, and in a lot of people's opinions is THE destination locally. It is also one of the most desirable places to live in the city, for people of all ages. It brings in a significantly higher amount of revenue to the city in terms of ad valorem taxes, sales taxes, etc in comparison to the rest of the city (excluding maybe the SJTC). Stop being cheap COJ. Pump some money into the district to help provide solutions to the transportation and parking issues there.  Then these type of debates wouldn't ever come up. Or at least there wouldn't be any merit to them. I know people may disagree with Mr. Crowe's letter, but by the letter of the law, he has some relevant points. Not saying I agree with him necessarily, just that he is not way out there.

If COJ could make the area more bike friendly, and provide better public transportation options, perhaps the maximum parking standards could be relaxed and we wouldn't ever have to hear about these type of concerns. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 10, 2014, 11:01:49 AM
Riverside/Avondale is a regional shopping, dining, cultural, and entertainment mecca, and in a lot of people's opinions is THE destination locally. It is also one of the most desirable places to live in the city, for people of all ages. It brings in a significantly higher amount of revenue to the city in terms of ad valorem taxes, sales taxes, etc in comparison to the rest of the city (excluding maybe the SJTC). Stop being cheap COJ. Pump some money into the district to help provide solutions to the transportation and parking issues there.  Then these type of debates wouldn't ever come up. Or at least there wouldn't be any merit to them. I know people may disagree with Mr. Crowe's letter, but by the letter of the law, he has some relevant points. Not saying I agree with him necessarily, just that he is not way out there.

If COJ could make the area more bike friendly, and provide better public transportation options, perhaps the maximum parking standards could be relaxed and we wouldn't ever have to hear about these type of concerns.

I agree that a more comprehensive transportation plan needs to be implemented in R/A, see here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-sep-stirring-a-different-conversation-on-riversideavondale (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-sep-stirring-a-different-conversation-on-riversideavondale)).



The reality is, their is a large amount of opposition to any sort of change in the neighborhood. Even forward-looking improvements like this receive convuluted opposition based on one's opinion instead of rational facts.




(http://www.riversideavondale.org/images/650.jpg)


(http://www.riversideavondale.org/images/652.jpg)


This particular design simplifies the existing traffic pattern at the Five Points intersection (which is safer from both an automobile and pedestrian standpoint), shortens crosswalks (again, a proven method to improve pedestrian safety), widens sidewalks and expands outdoor dining areas all with no net loss of on-street parking facilities.   (Just like the redesign of San Marco Square http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-before-after-san-marco-squares-balis-park (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-before-after-san-marco-squares-balis-park)). Yet, a small but vocal group of well-connected property owners are trying to block this as well.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Tacachale on December 10, 2014, 11:04:48 AM
^Wow, that looks a lot better.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 10, 2014, 12:48:11 PM
Mike, that was a great piece you did on parking solutions. I must have missed it 2 years ago. Exactly the type of stuff I was referring to.

Has RAP or any R/A advocate ever tried to quantify the financial impact/benefit the neighborhood has in terms of revenue generated for the city. I would think that would be a very beneficial tool for lobbying the city for bike/ped/transportation projects. Finding out the ad valorem revenue generated is pretty easy, but all the others might be tricky.

Basically, the net goal would be showing how much R/A generates in relation to city expenditures for the neighborhood. My guess is that the neighborhood generates substantially more than it receives, but having the hard data would be gold.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: simms3 on December 10, 2014, 12:52:15 PM
Not a fan of the new design...looks like it could be placed as an outparcel in Fleming Island where the operator's other restaurant apparently is.  The existing structure is not necessarily worth saving, though.

The concerns raised are real concerns that should be addressed as part of a two way street.  The concerns need to be addressed, but the mentality on the part of residents also needs to change.  This is an improvement over Yesterday's, a super cheap/crappy bar where I went WELL underage in high school and don't even recall being carded.  And while a commercial strip in Jax does mean more noise and parking issues than areas in in Jax not immediately adjacent to commercial (residents should know what they are buying/living next to anyway), it IS Jax, which even at its noisiest (which certainly isn't this strip) is nowhere near considered noisy in the least bit and parking is all relative.  Was in Avondale on a recent Saturday night and there were plenty of open parking spaces...we parked literally across the street from Mellow Mushroom.  This would never happen even in suburban areas of many cities in this country.

So address the issues, but also don't give in to any unreasonable requests.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 10, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
Not a fan of the new design...looks like it could be placed as an outparcel in Fleming Island where the operator's other restaurant apparently is.  The existing structure is not necessarily worth saving, though.

This is a new proposal. Different operator than Taps from Fleming Island. I don't think Taps would have been able to compete in R/A to be honest.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 10, 2014, 12:58:31 PM
(http://www.riversideavondale.org/images/652.jpg)

^Wow, that looks a lot better.

It would be cool to see something like that, extended down Park to better connect Five Points and Park & King together. The ROW on Park between those two districts is in need of enhancements.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChriswUfGator on December 10, 2014, 01:04:15 PM
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 10, 2014, 01:14:29 PM
Great idea Lake. That would be a high impact project that wouldn't cost very much relative to its impact. I believe that entire corridor is zoned CRO, so a new streetscape could potentially attract new businesses like B&B's, art galleries and additional professional offices.  Retail and restaurants can potentially come in under a use-by-exception.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChriswUfGator on December 10, 2014, 01:18:26 PM
I'm really starting to take issue with the near-wholesale exclusion of commercial structures from the R/A and Springfield overlays. Respectfully, someone screwed the pooch.

The building was constructed in 1950 after the historic district's period of significance (1909-1936) and was identified as having no historic significance under the National Register criteria.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/historic-preservation-guidelines-for-riverside---a.aspx (page 13 in link)

It was built in 1948, and is now older than a 1936 structure was at the time the R/A overlay was enacted, Lake. It's a 70 year old building, why not do an adaptive (not even THAT adaptive...it was already a restaurant and has the floor space for it) reuse? And for the record, sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but that rendering on the new one looks like it belongs in front of a strip mall on the southside.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Shwaz on December 10, 2014, 01:24:42 PM
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?

From what I've heard, the structure in it's current condition would need over $1M in work just to meet code. I live a couple blocks away and it really does look likes it's in bad shape.

The plan proposed looks nice and would certainly be an improvement.... but I'll always miss cheap pool & pitchers of Rolling Rock :( 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChriswUfGator on December 10, 2014, 01:32:30 PM
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?

From what I've heard, the structure in it's current condition would need over $1M in work just to meet code. I live a couple blocks away and it really does look likes it's in bad shape.

The plan proposed looks nice and would certainly be an improvement.... but I'll always miss cheap pool & pitchers of Rolling Rock :( 

That new construction will cost that much. That, and it's a historic district, cost shouldn't be the only concern anyway.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Intuition Ale Works on December 10, 2014, 03:01:13 PM

I am curious what makes this design suburbany.

I would like to learn the design/layout factors that affect people's opinion on where it fits in our city.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 10, 2014, 03:08:33 PM
My only gripe would be the windows, which is the only good point Crowe makes. The windows appear to be small, infrequent and set far within the frame of the building... and from the rendering it appears that there is much more wall surface than there are windows.  Larger and/or more frequent windows are certainly favorable in a walkable, urban envrironment.
Having larger windows would also give you the opportunity to have more prominent awnings, which is also preferable in a well functioning urban environment.

Frankly, I feel that's not an unreasonable design compromise to overturn.


Other than that: its built to the street, has parking in the back and covered outdoor seating. Looks pretty 'urban' to me. The rest of the aesthetics nuances would be nit-picky.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Shwaz on December 10, 2014, 03:16:39 PM
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?

From what I've heard, the structure in it's current condition would need over $1M in work just to meet code. I live a couple blocks away and it really does look likes it's in bad shape.

The plan proposed looks nice and would certainly be an improvement.... but I'll always miss cheap pool & pitchers of Rolling Rock :( 

That new construction will cost that much. That, and it's a historic district, cost shouldn't be the only concern anyway.

Then why didn't Taps continue with their construction plans? Notice how the building was torn apart, inspected and then abandoned? I'm all for preservation but waiting for the right investor may never end.

Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Shwaz on December 10, 2014, 03:18:55 PM
My only gripe would be the windows, which is the only good point Crowe makes.

Other than that: its built to the street, has parking in the back and covered outdoor seating. Looks pretty 'urban' to me. The rest of the aesthetics nuances would be nit-picky.

In the rendering it appears the architecture is similar to the Orsay building and looks comparable to what MM built. Both of which are fine by me :)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 10, 2014, 04:23:28 PM
I'm really starting to take issue with the near-wholesale exclusion of commercial structures from the R/A and Springfield overlays. Respectfully, someone screwed the pooch.

The building was constructed in 1950 after the historic district's period of significance (1909-1936) and was identified as having no historic significance under the National Register criteria.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/historic-preservation-guidelines-for-riverside---a.aspx (page 13 in link)

It was built in 1948, and is now older than a 1936 structure was at the time the R/A overlay was enacted, Lake. It's a 70 year old building, why not do an adaptive (not even THAT adaptive...it was already a restaurant and has the floor space for it) reuse? And for the record, sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but that rendering on the new one looks like it belongs in front of a strip mall on the southside.

No need to apologize. Personally, in this particular case, I don't have a strong opinion either way.  I just figured it was worth sharing with everyone since the COA meeting was coming up and I hadn't heard anything about the project elsewhere.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jcjohnpaint on December 10, 2014, 08:19:52 PM
I live in this neighborhood.  I just heard about this today from MJ (as usual).  I have until 3 to respond.  I work until 7 tonight.  This gentleman (who does not live in this neighborhood, but seems to represents us)... was notified of this news so early to consult his family and craft a letter... I say this property looks like shit and I say... let this happen... it is better than what it is (by far).  But hell, I am only a person living in the neighborhood.  What the hell do I know. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: BD51 on December 10, 2014, 09:26:19 PM
Not a fan of the new design...looks like it could be placed as an outparcel in Fleming Island where the operator's other restaurant apparently is.  The existing structure is not necessarily worth saving, though.

This is a new proposal. Different operator than Taps from Fleming Island. I don't think Taps would have been able to compete in R/A to be honest.

This is a new concept from the owner of Taps.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: bencrix on December 11, 2014, 08:37:57 AM
I live about 1.5 blocks away. The comments on design are welcome. I echo the aesthetic reservations voiced above and in the letter, while acknowledging that my opinion is subjective. As for the attempts to micro-manage / blow-up the business plan via the specter of a parking crisis (sigh), here we go again... 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChriswUfGator on December 11, 2014, 09:07:18 AM
To clarify, my only issue is I'd like to see an older building reused rather than demolished. The parking issue to me seems like focusing on the wrong thing. This neighborhood was designed originally with a streetcar circulator integral to it, and we've removed that. Now that it's finally reaching the point in economic growth where it was when that was in place, you're going to have to address transit. Parking is a symptom, not the problem, and stifling economic growth is not the cure.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 09:13:40 AM
I believe the COA was approved, with conditions, yesterday.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on December 11, 2014, 09:19:36 AM
To clarify, my only issue is I'd like to see an older building reused rather than demolished.

I'm with you 100%, even moreso with that particular building (my uncle operate a restaurant there in the early 80 and parents ate there the night I was born). However when the actual structure is stifling growth, it needs to go.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JHAT76 on December 11, 2014, 10:31:21 AM
I live about 1.5 blocks away. The comments on design are welcome. I echo the aesthetic reservations voiced above and in the letter, while acknowledging that my opinion is subjective. As for the attempts to micro-manage / blow-up the business plan via the specter of a parking crisis (sigh), here we go again...

Although to be fair.  When there was a workout/gym facility in that strip across from this location the parking on Dancy Wes / Northwest of Park was a mess.  Although I favor creative solutions over denying a new restaurant.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Live_Oak on December 11, 2014, 10:46:17 AM
There really shouldn't be any parking crisis. There is an on site parking lot which will have 32 parking spaces.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ben says on December 11, 2014, 01:25:03 PM
To clarify, my only issue is I'd like to see an older building reused rather than demolished. The parking issue to me seems like focusing on the wrong thing. This neighborhood was designed originally with a streetcar circulator integral to it, and we've removed that. Now that it's finally reaching the point in economic growth where it was when that was in place, you're going to have to address transit. Parking is a symptom, not the problem, and stifling economic growth is not the cure.

Per usual, agree w/ Chris.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Dog Walker on December 11, 2014, 03:39:21 PM
We REALLY, REALLY need to put streetcars back in R/A & Murry Hill.

They could also buy and tear down that trashy building across the street.

39 spaces X 3 people per car avg. = 117 people.  How many seats are they going to have?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Josh on December 11, 2014, 04:17:04 PM
3 people per car average? Where does that come from?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on December 11, 2014, 07:19:17 PM
Thad Crowe ("Palatka")

Susan Fraser ("Clay County")  (Mello Mello Mushroom,WLA,et al)

All the while,residing here,a best place. Takes the heat off Dr. Wood,not that pressure must be relieved.

Institutional Knowledge.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on December 11, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
[quote author=thelakelander  approved,                              with conditions,                     yesterday.
[/quote]
 8)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: MusicMan on December 11, 2014, 10:37:04 PM
1. Another restaurant in Avondale?

2. I hate the 'poop' brown tile on the exterior of the existing structure, incredibly ugly.

3. I normally agree with reuse instead of tear down, but this is a horrible building that has been transformed into  a mess. I have no problem with this being removed.

4. I really wish Mellow had bought this place. Or see a small grocery store like Grassroots in there. With a coffee and juice bar it could have been a huge addition to the neighborhood.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: mbwright on December 12, 2014, 08:59:58 AM
anybody have pics of what this looked like when new?  I bet it looked better then.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: avonjax on December 12, 2014, 09:59:26 AM
I live two blocks from this structure and it looks like shit!  Anything would be an improvement. 

What street do you live on?
I lived about a block and a half away for 20 years and I agree with you completely.
I love the new design concept and I think it would be great for that corner. Never did like that dirt and mud parking lot in the back of the building anyway....
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Dog Walker on December 12, 2014, 10:52:21 AM
3 people per car average? Where does that come from?

Finger-in-the-wind projection.  Probably more like 2.5 people per car, but that would be messy!  Most people going out to eat are couples, sometimes, but less often two couples together.  I am sure that some urban planner like Ennis has done the actual survey to project needed parking based on the number of seats in a restaurant and how often they turn over.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 12, 2014, 11:14:41 AM
It varies by municipality. COJ and Neptune Beach require 1 space per every 4 seats with 1 space for every 2 employees. SJC is 1 for every 3 seats. Jax Beach is 1 for every 100 square feet. Atlantic Beach is 1 for every 4 seats.

There is no exact scientific formula to determine how many spaces each individual restaurant will need. As Jax's codes are written, a restaurant in Riverside needs as many spaces as one at Atlantic and Kernan.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Live_Oak on December 12, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
Doesn't the RA overlay allow the parking requirements to be cut in half?  That's how they get to 37 required spots based on 250 seats and 20 employees.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 12, 2014, 11:20:51 AM
^That may be the case. I'll look it up real quick.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 12, 2014, 11:23:32 AM
It varies by municipality. COJ and Neptune Beach require 1 space per every 4 seats with 1 space for every 2 employees. SJC is 1 for every 3 seats. Jax Beach is 1 for every 100 square feet. Atlantic Beach is 1 for every 4 seats.

There is no exact scientific formula to determine how many spaces each individual restaurant will need. As Jax's codes are written, a restaurant in Riverside needs as many spaces as one at Atlantic and Kernan.

I bolded the part that confuses me....

Many average sized, 7-day a week restaurants may have over 80 employees, but during any given service, there is typically only a 1/3 of that actually working.  Does the parking requirement take that into consideration? 

Is based up a Full Occupancy staff or total employees?  That would be a tremendous difference.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: CityLife on December 12, 2014, 11:24:18 AM
NRW, Code says, "One space for each four seats in public rooms plus one space for each two employees."

I don't know how COJ's staff and OGC actually apply that provision in practice, but it has to be difficult to enforce. It is very easy to determine how many seats a restaurant has. Not so much when it comes to # of employees.

Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jcjohnpaint on December 12, 2014, 11:32:47 AM
Azalea Drive
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 12, 2014, 11:59:44 AM
Hi everyone, I tried this once but must have messed it up. Learning. The infamous Thad Crowe, here, not trying to be too annoying & not being compensated for anything, but we do own a little house on Eloise St., currently occupied by daughter, and the necessities of kids tuitions & marriages and the need to downsize (hey, nobody gets rich as an urban planner) is leading Anita & I to move back to Avondale. Not the fancy mansion Avondale, but the down-to-earth bungalow Avondale, which we love and where we lived in the 90s during the crazier days of Yesterdays, the weird Boone Park cops-gays standoffs, and the presence of two abandoned homes on our street. More gritty & urban than now I think. Yes I know Susan Fraser, but only professionally. And I learned the hard way that it is best to work for free in your neighborhood, that's just my viewpoint, RAP always needs volunteers. OK, parking & design. I agree that most restaurant trips are probably couples, so the one parking space per four seats underrepresents parking. And keep in mind that Park & Dancy has 22 marked on-street spaces, compared to 167 at the Shoppes & 246 at Park & King (Gyhabi parking study). So on a good night there will be a hundred and maybe many more cars looking for parking spaces on Eloise, Walsh, Valencia, Dancy, Wolfe, Ingleside, & rennssalaer. On these narrow streets with small lots most folks park one car in driveway & one on street. So there will be more competition for those spaces. I know that is not the end of the world, and I think its great that folks will be walking around the neighborhood, enjoying the architecture & trees. But there will be some adjustment required, whether this is a 100 or a 250-seat restaurant. Because Yesterday's has been closed for years, and when it was open it was usually dead except for the occasional crazy blow-outs. (I also think that the Boone Park tennis court parking can provide a great place for parking, one block away.) On to design. I know that architecture can be very subjective, but the narrow windows of the proposed restaurant to me evoke gun turrets, or at best suburban office building. Not close to the welcoming, wide storefront windows so prevalent for contributing & noncontributing retail & restaurant buildings in historic districts. And despite public & RAP support of the storefronts, the preservation board last Wed. deferred to their fellow architect and rejected the storefront requirement that has been made of other infill commercial buildings in Riverside Avondale. With a vague recommendation to staff to "work something out" by pairing the windows or something. There are other ways to dress up a corner entrance than marching skinny windows away from it. Again, my opinion only. Peace & Out!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 12, 2014, 12:08:10 PM
Thad, welcome to the site and thanks for the explanation of your views, and potential solutions given, regarding this project.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 12, 2014, 12:12:33 PM
You are welcome, it is my pleasure - I really like MJ and feel like a troll for not getting on sooner. The discussion is very good. The only thing I would add is that at the pres. board public hearing it came out that the building would have sort of a whitewashed brick exterior.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 12, 2014, 03:50:44 PM
Thanks for coming on and expanding on your letter.

I agree that most restaurant trips are probably couples, so the one parking space per four seats underrepresents parking.

So, are you saying that you think the Overlay is too lenient on parking requirements? I think, and the data supports, that overall both the City and RA have an oversupply of parking.

(I also think that the Boone Park tennis court parking can provide a great place for parking, one block away.)

I agree. Would you be in favor of amending the Overlay to allow for off site shared parking agreements to meet peak demand?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 12, 2014, 04:18:18 PM
It is really hard to, at least in zoning terms, to strike a balance between maintaining vibrancy of historic commercial districts and neighborhood quality of life. Things have a way of self-correcting when those who tire of the congestion move away, and those who welcome the action move in. But I support the menu approach - make sure a there is an available base level mixture of parking - on-site, nearby on-street, in nearby lots, and maybe allow reducing parking as density, sidewalk network, covered bike parking, legitimate transit (Riverside trolley, not empty lumbering buses) and other relevant factors increase. You could pick a healthy & functional area to try to identify these factors of success (the Riverside Avondale parking study is a good start for this). But also allow for some creative and flexible approaches - the research indicates that people will walk longer distances when you make the walk pleasurable and safe, so allow big restaurants seeking parking reduction seek out alternatives to parking, say to contribute to shade trees, better sidewalks, lighting, public art and other elements of interest in an ever-expanding walk-shed. Of course the downside to this is administration - it all crashes around you under clumsy hands.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 12, 2014, 04:25:54 PM
Quote
say to contribute to shade trees, better sidewalks, lighting, public art and other elements of interest in an ever-expanding walk-shed.

Without responding to the entirety of your post for the sake of time (its almost happy hour, after all).. sounds like then, you would be in favor of some kind of incentive zoning scheme and/or parking in lieu program within the Overlay?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 12, 2014, 04:43:01 PM
Absolutely I would! Because it seems what is in place is not working as well as maybe it should. Happy Friday!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jcjohnpaint on December 12, 2014, 06:40:53 PM
Welcome Thad.  Thanks for your point of view. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ProjectMaximus on December 12, 2014, 07:40:12 PM
Absolutely I would! Because it seems what is in place is not working as well as maybe it should. Happy Friday!

Aww man! I was soo looking forward to hating this Thad fellow but he sounds like a reasonable guy!  ;)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 12, 2014, 08:22:20 PM
Absolutely I would! Because it seems what is in place is not working as well as maybe it should. Happy Friday!

That's a welcome breath of fresh air.

If you agree that there are better ways to address these issues and are in favor of seeking solutions such as those previously mentioned, why then are you advocating for the arbitrary reduction in the amount of seating in this restaurant instead of looking at win-win solutions that more sensibly address the root causes of the problem?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 12, 2014, 08:27:24 PM
Absolutely I would! Because it seems what is in place is not working as well as maybe it should. Happy Friday!

That's a welcome breath of fresh air.

If you agree that there are better ways to address these issues and are in favor of seeking solutions such as those previously mentioned, why then are you advocating for the arbitrary reduction in the amount of seating in this restaurant instead of looking at win-win solutions that more sensibly address the root causes of the problem?

C'mon Mike... to be fair, there are several different issues that can (and have) been worked through regarding seating quantities and the reasoning behind them.  If you want to look at arbitrary numbers, for one, we could start with the seating minimum to obtain a liquor license. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 12, 2014, 10:48:22 PM
Well to be honest with you fieldafm, I was trying to use the KISS principle because I am pretty busy & not local plus I was concerned not to deal with too much Nuance with the City. :) My experience with the egos on appointed boards is you have to be a little dramatic. Sorry about that. In the end there were some pretty big errors in my letter, so that was embarrassing. Like not understanding the parking variance and estimating 100 seats instead of the correct 180 for Orsay. And I didn't know my friend Ennis would pull my letter out of obscurity.  But it is all good. :D
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on December 13, 2014, 04:53:29 AM
^Haha. There was no ill will from my end, when I threw the story together. I went through the meeting agenda on COJ's website, saw the project's COA application, which included the letter, and thought it was interesting enough to share, since I accurately figured that most people probably didn't know anything about what was being proposed.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 13, 2014, 09:39:13 AM
No problem, it is good to get the word out. Yes, arbitrary numbers are not good, like 150-seat minimum for liquor, but without structure bad actors can rush in. As far as shared parking, there is now a flat 400-foot distance for off-site parking. Maybe that could be increased with certain favorable factors present. The best solution would be Robert Mann's streetcars of course! Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 13, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
Well to be honest with you fieldafm, I was trying to use the KISS principle because I am pretty busy & not local plus I was concerned not to deal with too much Nuance with the City. :) My experience with the egos on appointed boards is you have to be a little dramatic. Sorry about that. In the end there were some pretty big errors in my letter, so that was embarrassing. Like not understanding the parking variance and estimating 100 seats instead of the correct 180 for Orsay. And I didn't know my friend Ennis would pull my letter out of obscurity.  But it is all good. :D

You would agree then that a letter from a professional signed with their credentials would tend to carry weight with a citizen-appointed zoning committee... and that it is perhaps unfair then when this professional opinion does not even adequately give the applicant the seating/parking rights they are allowed by right according to the muni code and other nearby businesses have been granted (especially considering the Overlay allows for no parking to be required if a non contributing structure is being replaced with the same square footage.. and COJ has previously allowed for this consideration when new construction exceeds the previous footprint)? 

Will you be sending a modified letter when the applicant goes to LUZ?

It's concerning when hyperbole and sensationalism are used by professionals, wouldn't you agree? Especially in a neighborhood that is fraught with messy zoning disputes.. all the while operating under a Code that is incomplete and not particularly effective when dealing with growth management issues (according to your own opinion.. One that I roundly agree with)?

I really could care less where you live, I just wanted to vet that particular concern as in the case of Mellow Mushroom and Kickbacks.. several neighbors blasted the opinions of others because they 'didn't live their', regardless of whether or not those opinions were given by people who owned commercial or residential property near the proposed business. Just making sure apples are being compared to apples.

I'm really glad you came on and clarified your position. Would you also be interested in consulting with others and making recommendations as to how the Overlay can be amended to better deal with these types of issues?


BTW, the more I think about.. The more strongly I agree with you about the windows.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 13, 2014, 02:59:05 PM
No problem, it is good to get the word out. Yes, arbitrary numbers are not good, like 150-seat minimum for liquor, but without structure bad actors can rush in. As far as shared parking, there is now a flat 400-foot distance for off-site parking. Maybe that could be increased with certain favorable factors present. The best solution would be Robert Mann's streetcars of course! Thanks everyone.

I agree, and the frustrating thing is that the Ghyabj parking study identifies ample parking supply throughout R/A, yet code does not allow for a more efficient way to unbundle and utilize that parking.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 13, 2014, 05:18:15 PM
Yes fieldsafm, you are correct. I was being a little flippant there about the drama. The Overlay is very difficult to dive in and quickly figure out, so yes I will be more careful. I am a latecomer to these disputes, so I am learning things as I go. Lisa Sheppard from the City's historic preservation office has been incredibly helpful. I sense that there is not exactly a meeting of the minds between the City's HP and Zoning sections. For example, the Pres. Comm. gets a design approved, which the applicant then uses to justify a larger building size. And the built-in parking variances for the Overlay are a one-size-fits-all and don't recognize unique site & vicinity characteristics. And yuck on the windows.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Kay on December 13, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
Any restaurant over 100 seats whether in a contributing structure, non-contributing structure or new development with the same square footage as the building being torn down requires parking at a 50% reduction from the regular code.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on December 13, 2014, 11:01:13 PM

Nocatee Planner/Clay County Planner .......right behind Clay County Planner Fraser....WLA   

What's next:


 :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on December 13, 2014, 11:06:47 PM
Hi everyone, I tried this once but must have messed it up. Learning. The infamous Thad Crowe, here, not trying to be too annoying & not being compensated for anythin

Gonna name 13.723 miles of the First Coa(s)t Beltway in your honor,whether you like it or not

Lake Ass Bury   (Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan S.Fraser. Lake Asbury Sector #1....and,yepper,#2. But basically #1,that's the one to recall.)

A short section of St Johns Avenue already unofficially named in honor of Susan Fraser. And Susan gets the north half of Section 19/Brannon Chaffe Clay County/Beltway in her honor.(*) What will you claim in Riverside/Avondale , Thad? 

(*  some time earlier,MJ locked a post on this subject of North half of Section 19  8) )
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on December 13, 2014, 11:10:20 PM
Thad, welcome to the site

Weak


Come on,have some balls, learn to stand back,even for a moment, a couple of daze. Shut it off>
You might have little idea what just floats up to MJ,as if River Floatsam & Jetsam.

Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 14, 2014, 08:11:20 AM
Know Growth - I don't want to claim anything, if you think that planners have much power in NE Florida, that is pretty comical. I did my best to improve any planning effort I was involved in, I kept to my ethical code, and I communicated to all sides interested in talking, all this at a relatively low level of compensation. I believe the plans you mention in many ways stand out for open space & environmental preservation, higher architectural standards, and pedestrian/bicycle emphasis, all developed under elected officials who were generally anti-regulatory & pro-business, guided by campaign contributors. Without these plans development would have occurred in a sprawl pattern. Nocatee preserved 5,500 acres in a greenway system, Lake Asbury requires open space & site design upgrades to get higher density/intensity. I'll grant there were some concessions, there are in any public effort, but these plans were forward-thinking for their time. In fact I gained a reputation among developers as sort of a left-wing nut due to my strong support of sound planning principles and site design. On the Outer Beltway, I represented the policy set by the county commission. So what makes me so sinister? And if they printed stories peripherally involving you could you also sound devious & newsworthy? I'm just askin. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Ocklawaha on December 14, 2014, 07:06:07 PM
Thad, 'Welcome aboard' my friend.

A little historical prospective from the streetcar view. 5-Points, Park and King as well as Avondale were carefully crafted streetcar suburbs. True to walkable design, the streetcar missed the actual center of each business district, being built (typically) a block or two away, or having the district sandwiched between two streetcar lines as in the case of Park and King. Thus the car line provided transportation a bit more centered on the residential districts which tended to sprout apartments, putting each business within a pleasant walk from the car stop.

Avondale was planned in such a way, the car line came south through 5-Points on May Street, Lomax Street provided the pedestrian entry from the car line. It jogged over to Oak just north of Margaret Street on a long gone diagonal under the multi-unit building now lining the northside of Margaret. The line continued down Oak to King, turning toward the river to St. Johns. Again, this placed the cars 2 blocks from the Park and King business district. A bit later the Murray Hill Heights car line would come down College Street, passing the other end of the business district. The line continued south on St. Johns to Aberdeen Street, turning west on Aberdeen to Herschel Street, Herschel was not complete as a through street  in those days and ended at the north edge of Boone Park, the streetcars continued south through the park and on to Fairfax, Ortega and what is today NAS JAX. largely on exclusive (known as 'private R/W') right of way.

John Ingle Sr. was a key person in the development of the tract that would become Avondale. Thus the grand entry to Avondale's business district was on the landscaped and divided 'Ingleside Avenue.' Ingle's son John Ingle Jr. would later become an executive with Eastern Airlines and was a local historian of note, the longest serving president of the of the JHS. Today, Ingleside is largely forgotten. It's landscaped median has been allowed to grown into a disorganized jungle. The twin 'carriageways' a patchwork. It's furnishings and appointments lost. Today route 16 and 71 buses crowd their way through St. Johns Avenue every 30 minutes and along Post Street across King every 30 minutes as opposed to every 12. The people have forgotten how to walk.

By April of 1910, Jacksonville was home to 903 automobiles. That Avondale was 'designed for the automobile,' as claimed by some local historians is rather comical considering there were not more then a few thousand cars in all of Duval County by the time dirt was turning in the 1920's. The other clue is that it was developed by Telfair Stockton, himself a streetcar magnet.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7493/16022517512_3525708c2d_z.jpg)
IMAGINE! Ingleside returned to it's former glory.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16023143795_5f78e74341_z.jpg)
Follow the red lines for the streetcar routes.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8683/16022921272_2b186aa66c_z.jpg)
A glimpse of what Herschel and other local streets looked like in the early 1900's. (Orange CT)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/15400803254_0d386d0a39_z.jpg)
Park Street was never a streetcar route, but the idea does have merit along park or any number of local streets.

According to NHTS, the average vehicle occupancy in Florida (all modes, SUV, auto, motorcycle etc) is 1.65 AVO.

However I agree with Thad to the point that people going out to eat are likely to have more then the norm in their car.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 15, 2014, 10:24:14 AM
Wow Robert, what a timely description of a home-spun transit system that worked & could still be working. Thank you. And you are right about Ingleside, what a great connecting boulevard between Park & St. Johns, lost to jungle now.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Kerry on December 15, 2014, 11:02:46 AM
I don't feel like reading through 6 pages of comments so if this was already discussed please excuse me.  When opposition to urban developments are based on a lack of parking the author of said complaint loses me.  The City should be striving to remove all parking requirements in urban areas where walkability is a priority.  If anything, the major complaint for this project should be the parking lot itself.  Offer some on-street parking, create a neighborhood parking systems (residents only) and then the size of the restaurant will conform to the availability of customers who either arrive by car and fight for limited parking or people from the adjacent neighborhoods who walk/ride bikes.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jaxjags on December 15, 2014, 11:40:40 AM
I see this argument and many cities do limit parking to neighborhood citizens using permits. Yes this should lead to smaller seating BUT due to COJ requirement for a minimum number of seats to get a liquor license as a restaurant. Not sure of numbers as I have heard anywhere from 200 to 280. I think lowering or removing this requirement would be a bigger help to restaurant size in these areas. The 50% requirement for food would remain to prevent the easy opening of "just a bar".
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 15, 2014, 12:43:31 PM
Well Kerry & Jax Jags, yes this is an urban area, but it is also predominantly a residential area without the hundreds of commercial on-street parking spaces on St. Johns Ave. & King St. I agree with your approach, but we are stuck with the system as it is now, with no neighborhood parking program in place, and a now-established precedent via Mellow Mushroom & others to gloss over parking impacts, particularly on neighborhoods. As I understand it the Planning Commission may feel compelled to approve parking variances because others were approved, without regards to distinctive differences between the Park & Dancy area and the larger historic commercial areas. By all means, bring the restaurants to this area, but let's move carefully! The cost & trouble of handling it thoughtfully at the outset is much less than the expense of fixing a zoning mess after the fact. One last thing, while the application shows around 160 seats on the site plan, the request is for 250-seats, so I don't understand this discrepancy. And I think the liquor license minimum is 150 seats.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: NIMBY on December 15, 2014, 04:51:55 PM
Well, ain't this place is a geographical oddity! Two blocks from everywhere!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 15, 2014, 05:12:47 PM
Quote
160 seats on the site plan, the request is for 250-seats, so I don't understand this discrepancy. And I think the liquor license minimum is 150 seats.

150 seats is the minimum, unless you are in special zones carved out in North Riverside/5 Points and now (in the worst case of spot zoning ever--which btw, the Overlay expressly discourages) Biscottis and Casbah in Avondale (the only buildings, by law, that enjoy this special privilege in this corridor).

I believe that somewhere between 160-190 (ish) seats are in the range of what the applicant can be approved for utilizing the 50% parking reduction and past precedent in the neighborhood... and they are requesting a variance that could allow them up to 250 seats (not uncommon as you'll always ask for the max you can fit by fire code depending on the footprint of the building-something that is not yet determined until the fire marshall weighs in- and then wittle down from there depending on a variety of factors--primarily the useable footprint of the building after area is deducted for all necessary equipment, fire doorways, restrooms, etc).

I don't think COJ Planning has given a recommendation quite yet based on the current application status.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 15, 2014, 05:17:43 PM
Quote
all developed under elected officials who were generally anti-regulatory & pro-business, guided by campaign contributors. Without these plans development would have occurred in a sprawl pattern. Nocatee preserved 5,500 acres in a greenway system, Lake Asbury requires open space & site design upgrades to get higher density/intensity

Don't mind him, all DRIs are an unforgiveable sin in the Bible according to the Book of 'NO Growth'. Whether they paid for their own infrastructure and/or have significant preservation easements, or not. 
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Ocklawaha on December 15, 2014, 05:19:05 PM
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7575/15845312567_4175b4b444_o.jpg)

But of course there is a Jacksonville alternative, just tear down a block of historic buildings and put in a 5 floor parking garage... albeit one that looks like it was built in 1925!

Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 16, 2014, 10:15:49 AM
Wise words fields, and it is a little soon to be engaging in the parking issues without the application in, although the 250 seats is on the record through the JHPC process. Through this learning curve, I am coming around to understanding that it will be somewhere in the high 100s, depending on the level of public input maybe. There is a problem when the regulations are so very complex, and even then get frequently thrown out. Seems like a form of anarchy. But I shouldn't criticize others too much, since I get it right back!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on December 16, 2014, 12:31:05 PM
Quote
Seems like a form of anarchy.

I wouldn't characterize it as anarchy (more like iron fists are trying to rule in a vaccum with an incomplete understanding of the situation as a whole) ... but the process is definately broken. And that process will continue to be broken until the Overlay is changed in a manner that looks at challenges and solutions in a much more holistic manner. Some cling to the Overlay like it is the unfallable edict of the Ten Commandments, when really it's just a half-finished Masters thesis that desperately needs to be completed (and later updated as new research proves or disproves previous conclusions). In that situation, bad blood (and sometimes bad behavior) arises. It's past time to explore more realistic solutions that address the heart of the matter. So far, there has been mainly can-kicking. Which is fine now because the area is more alive than ever, but things are just going to get  much more contentious and the stakes are going to be ever so higher in the months and years to come.

You can only pound your head against the wall for so long until you really develop head trauma issues.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: PeeJayEss on December 18, 2014, 03:36:40 PM
Know Growth - I don't want to claim anything, if you think that planners have much power in NE Florida, that is pretty comical. I did my best to improve any planning effort I was involved in, I kept to my ethical code, and I communicated to all sides interested in talking, all this at a relatively low level of compensation. I believe the plans you mention in many ways stand out for open space & environmental preservation, higher architectural standards, and pedestrian/bicycle emphasis, all developed under elected officials who were generally anti-regulatory & pro-business, guided by campaign contributors. Without these plans development would have occurred in a sprawl pattern. Nocatee preserved 5,500 acres in a greenway system, Lake Asbury requires open space & site design upgrades to get higher density/intensity. I'll grant there were some concessions, there are in any public effort, but these plans were forward-thinking for their time. In fact I gained a reputation among developers as sort of a left-wing nut due to my strong support of sound planning principles and site design. On the Outer Beltway, I represented the policy set by the county commission. So what makes me so sinister? And if they printed stories peripherally involving you could you also sound devious & newsworthy? I'm just askin.

Don't worry about Know Growth, that account is a metroajcksonville experiment. They have a computer logged into that account in their secret laboratory. They took the keyboard and locked it in a cage with a mouse (not the computer input device, a small mammal). The mouse crawls around on the keyboard most of the day. Sometimes words get spit out. Mostly it is just random characters.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Thad Crowe on December 19, 2014, 01:14:29 PM
cracking up
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on February 01, 2015, 12:28:12 AM
Quote
Seems like a form of anarchy.

I wouldn't characterize it as anarchy (more like iron fists are trying to rule in a vaccum with an incomplete understanding of the situation as a whole) ... but the process is definately broken. And that process will continue to be broken until the Overlay is changed in a manner that looks at challenges and solutions in a much more holistic manner. Some cling to the Overlay like it is the unfallable edict of the Ten Commandments, when really it's just a half-finished Masters thesis that desperately needs to be completed (and later updated as new research proves or disproves previous conclusions). In that situation, bad blood (and sometimes bad behavior) arises. It's past time to explore more realistic solutions that address the heart of the matter. So far, there has been mainly can-kicking. Which is fine now because the area is more alive than ever, but things are just going to get  much more contentious and the stakes are going to be ever so higher in the months and years to come.

You can only pound your head against the wall for so long until you really develop head trauma issues.

During Overlay proceedings I kicked cans all over the place. Some lodged in dark corners.
Nothing here as of February 2015 to shed light.

Onward!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Noone on April 10, 2015, 06:12:31 AM
Was in Avondale last night and we parked on a side street that had various sized white marked spots. When we came back to our vehicle on our windshield was a note from J. Riley Williams, PLC / Attorney and Counselor at Law with a message. " If you parked farther up then one more car could fit this space."
Welcome to the neighborhood?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on April 10, 2015, 07:28:33 AM
LOL! To be honest. It is annoying when someone takes up two parking spots. I see it in downtown all the time.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: acme54321 on April 10, 2015, 07:46:35 AM
Was in Avondale last night and we parked on a side street that had various sized white marked spots. When we came back to our vehicle on our windshield was a note from J. Riley Williams, PLC / Attorney and Counselor at Law with a message. " If you parked farther up then one more car could fit this space."
Welcome to the neighborhood?

What does your lack of parking etiquette have to do with the St Johns River our American Heritage Waterway?  I'm sure there is something.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: strider on April 10, 2015, 08:04:51 AM
If the first car doesn't park within the lines, then none can.  If that first car leaves, it looks like you are to blame. The note giver could become the note getter. In this case, Noone, it appears that the note giver left it on his card.  I'd keep it and put it on the next JSO patrol car I found not parking between the lines....
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: BridgeTroll on April 10, 2015, 09:06:09 AM
Lol
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 10, 2015, 09:16:57 AM
Noone fails to mention the trailer of kayaks he was towing that took up extra spaces.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: PeeJayEss on April 10, 2015, 09:27:57 AM
Sounds like the most cordial way anyone has ever complained about a poor park job.
If the white box is bigger than one car length, it is meant for multiple cars. The Riverside re-striping doesn't distinguish separate spots, just where the parking areas are. In case you couldn't tell from where the signs and driveways are. Basically, city has money for painting unnecessary parking lines and removing love locks, but not painting bike lanes or mowing grass. So quaint!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 10, 2015, 10:14:29 AM
Noone's account got hacked!!  :o
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: pierre on April 10, 2015, 10:37:32 AM
Anybody else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Tacachale on April 10, 2015, 11:06:03 AM
What we all have to remember is FIND is good. Jacksonville is LOST. Waterways commission meeting in 4 days.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 10, 2015, 11:19:40 AM
What does your lack of parking etiquette have to do with the St Johns River our American Heritage Waterway?  I'm sure there is something.

Noone fails to mention the trailer of kayaks he was towing that took up extra spaces.
Anybody else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys?
What we all have to remember is FIND is good. Jacksonville is LOST. Waterways commission meeting in 4 days.

I shouldn't find these as funny as I do....   Poor Noone.  He's might never come out of his SILO again.....  ;D
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Noone on April 10, 2015, 01:29:12 PM
What does your lack of parking etiquette have to do with the St Johns River our American Heritage Waterway?  I'm sure there is something.

Noone fails to mention the trailer of kayaks he was towing that took up extra spaces.
Anybody else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys?
What we all have to remember is FIND is good. Jacksonville is LOST. Waterways commission meeting in 4 days.

I shouldn't find these as funny as I do....   Poor Noone.  He's might never come out of his SILO again.....  ;D

I love MJ. Paul Astleford is a super hero. Waterways Commission meeting in 5 days. HEY JACKSONVILLE! We have a BARGE! Does Putnam county know about this?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Noone on April 10, 2015, 01:46:26 PM
Sounds like the most cordial way anyone has ever complained about a poor park job.
If the white box is bigger than one car length, it is meant for multiple cars. The Riverside re-striping doesn't distinguish separate spots, just where the parking areas are. In case you couldn't tell from where the signs and driveways are. Basically, city has money for painting unnecessary parking lines and removing love locks, but not painting bike lanes or mowing grass. So quaint!

The white parking box had a car parked in the middle. Was the spot large enough for 3 compacts? I'd say yes. There was a driveway in front and I could have gone up a little further but I wanted to be in the line and not crowd the driveway. I had a situation Downtown one time and I parked in a spot where the car was in the middle of two meters. I ended up putting money in the meter and part of my vehicle entered the handicap space and I got a ticket for parking in the handicapped. So what are the New Rules for this new parking area?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Overstreet on April 22, 2015, 04:05:08 PM
Some of the Riverside restriping is big enough for two small cars to park ..................side by side.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Dog Walker on April 22, 2015, 04:34:09 PM
Given how poorly some of our drivers parallel park, the extra width is necessary.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on April 22, 2015, 08:10:22 PM
anyone know how this restaurant is moving along?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: fieldafm on April 23, 2015, 07:26:33 AM
anyone know how this restaurant is moving along?

Planning Commission hearing is today. There are a few things that have changed since the initial renderings posted here. Namely, the windows are being treated in a different manner and a few modifications to the large outdoor seating area in between South and Orsay.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Kay on April 23, 2015, 12:48:58 PM
anyone know how this restaurant is moving along?

Planning Commission hearing is today. There are a few things that have changed since the initial renderings posted here. Namely, the windows are being treated in a different manner and a few modifications to the large outdoor seating area in between South and Orsay.

Planning Commission approved the project two weeks ago.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on April 23, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
Anywhere I may view the new renderings? Just curious.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: cline on April 24, 2015, 10:05:10 AM
If you go to http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/planning-commission.aspx and download the 4-9-15 Final Orders pdf you can see a site plan and read about the conditions it was approved under. There is no renderings though. Starts on page 197.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on April 24, 2015, 11:41:47 AM
Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: dp8541 on May 12, 2015, 11:51:26 AM
"• Site plans are under city review for South Kitchen and Spirits at 3638 Park St., next to the Orsay restaurant. South Kitchen and Spirits will comprise up to 230 seats, 178 inside and 52 outside, in 7,780 square feet of space, which includes covered patio space. The site is the former Yesterdays Bar."

Just an update from the Daily Record today.  I am a little late to the thread here and did not read every response, but does this mean the site plan under review by the city has the approval of RAP?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Dog Walker on July 02, 2015, 12:57:40 PM
Drove by the site this morning.  Yesterday's building is now a small pile of bricks and concrete.  Removal of that building exposed and old, faded sign on the side of Orsay's building advertising Royal Crown Cola and the grocery that used to be in that building.  It was painted directly on the bricks.  Neat to see.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 02, 2015, 01:52:14 PM
Noticed that too!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Know Growth on July 02, 2015, 09:41:54 PM
ridiculous comments excised  8)

Page nine..........
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: The_Choose_1 on July 03, 2015, 03:12:13 PM
Drove by the site this morning.  Yesterday's building is now a small pile of bricks and concrete.  Removal of that building exposed and old, faded sign on the side of Orsay's building advertising Royal Crown Cola and the grocery that used to be in that building.  It was painted directly on the bricks.  Neat to see.
Has anyone taken a photo of this old sign?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: ChipCharge on July 03, 2015, 03:38:10 PM
http://i.imgur.com/OYq4WyJ.jpg
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: The_Choose_1 on July 03, 2015, 09:06:31 PM
http://i.imgur.com/OYq4WyJ.jpg
Thank you I went over and grabbed some photos myself. But you got a shot before some nasty signs were put up.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Live_Oak on July 03, 2015, 11:44:23 PM
Someone put some signs up over the RC Cola sign???
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: The_Choose_1 on July 04, 2015, 07:28:16 AM
Someone put some signs up over the RC Cola sign???
No I should have explained myself better. The nasty signs can be found around the property NO TRESPASSING!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on September 23, 2015, 03:10:05 PM
Anything happening with this restaurant? I thought contractors would be mobilizing this month to begin site/foundation work?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Live_Oak on September 23, 2015, 03:21:15 PM
Value engineering happened.  Had to get approval of a minor modification from the historic preservation commission.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: camarocane on September 24, 2015, 07:09:55 AM
Just curious if they have a contractor on board, a NTP date?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Live_Oak on December 10, 2015, 10:43:13 PM
Construction has begun. Facebook page is up.

https://www.facebook.com/southkitchenandspirits/

Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: mtraininjax on December 11, 2015, 09:59:07 AM
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/12/south-kitchen-spirits-aims-to-bring-something-new.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/12/south-kitchen-spirits-aims-to-bring-something-new.html)

Not only has construction begun, but the BUZZ continues to grow. Brian posts on MJ from time to time. We are very happy for him and the progress being made on the Restaurant in Avondale. Should be yet another great draw for the neighborhood.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on December 11, 2015, 10:13:34 AM
This restaurant will be a nice addition to the neighborhood.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JeffreyS on December 11, 2015, 11:05:23 AM
Does that corner/strip have a moniker?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on June 30, 2016, 11:25:01 PM
Does anybody know of an updated opening date for this restaurant?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on November 20, 2019, 09:43:28 AM
South Kitchen announced that they are closing their Avondale location.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Steve on November 20, 2019, 10:10:20 AM
South Kitchen announced that they are closing their Avondale location.

Wow, a little surprised. It seems like odd timing given the holidays. They also mentioned that the one in Nocatee is under different ownership (not sure if they mean the restaurant or the building).

This one always struck me as odd....it was started by Brian Siebenschuh, who was the Executive chef at Orsay. Crazy to open a new restaurant right next door to where you were the executive chef.

Maybe they're working on a new concept.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on November 20, 2019, 10:32:25 AM
Their price point being next to Orsay was a bit odd. I think a neighborhood concept with a simplified menu could work. Also, a Southern Grounds/Roost concept would do well too.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: acme54321 on November 20, 2019, 10:44:28 AM
We didn't go in there a ton, but the few times over the last year or so I went it just seemed... off.  I think it was a bunch of little factors that added up and made this news not surprising.  Food was a little pricey for what you got.  Atmosphere inside always seemed weird to me.  Service not horrible but not the best.  Etc.

I'm sure something else will come into that space though.  Tons of potential there.  Bearded Pig Avondale?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on November 20, 2019, 10:55:11 AM
I only went once, a couple of years ago. Restaurants come and go but the building is a pretty nice one. I'm sure it won't be empty for long.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Steve on November 20, 2019, 11:18:03 AM
The thing about it I thought it was good not great, if that makes sense. Frankly, I think the Brick is that way too. The difference is....the Brick is sort of a place to "be seen", plus if one of the other restaurants are jammed it's a place to go on the square.

South really doesn't have that; it's a little off the path at Park and Dancy. Orsay doesn't have that same issue as Orsay is truly a destination restaurant. South was not. You do have good visibility down Dancy as it's a clear shot to the Shoppes from Roosevelt so something else can go in there.

Bottom line: I feel like Nocatee's gain is our gain. I'm totally cool with Nocatee getting the Urban Core's Sloppy Seconds.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on November 20, 2019, 11:23:09 AM
Wow. That is another pretty high profile closing. We never went but I was under the impression it was highly regarded. If it sucked, that is one thing.

I think the Urban core might be a bit saturated at this point considering we haven’t exactly added a ton of density while the dining scene has exploded.

I think it has more to do with if the restaurant isn’t good or ran efficiently then consumers pick up on that and just stop going.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on November 20, 2019, 02:33:28 PM
Huge startup overhead and just not enough people coming through the door to cover it would be my main guesses for the closing.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Florida Power And Light on November 21, 2019, 03:56:23 PM
I tried hard to like the place. A Chef that traveled all the way from Middleburg to be part of this supposed amazing new dining venture.Perhaps three visits and then no more interest for me. I liked the idea of bar area and other seating handy and open to the sidewalk,great for riding a bike to, but the street traffic was too close and loud.
I would not be surprised to see a major remodel with any new venture.
Perhaps what we need on that corner in “ South Avondale” is a seedy bar and some pool tables, busted front windows.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Kiva on November 21, 2019, 06:32:58 PM
I tried hard to like the place. A Chef that traveled all the way from Middleburg
That's all I need to know!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JeffreyS on November 22, 2019, 10:09:09 AM
I live a few blocks away and they seem to always have plenty of business.  There were a few items on the menu I liked but overall the food was just ok (general complaint too salty).  They had a nice sports bar area but the TVs were mounted so you had too look up to an uncomfortable degree and I'm 6'4" so I watched a few games there but prefer mellow or Fishwier Brewery to watch a game.  They did the area right by constructing such a nice building with dedicated parking that will not take long to fill.  If I were southern grounds I would call the audible right now before starting all of the construction at the Shops of Avondale.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on November 22, 2019, 01:10:14 PM
They did the area right by constructing such a nice building with dedicated parking that will not take long to fill.

And I think therein lies the rub.  The next owner will have a fraction of the amount of upfront, build-out costs that South had and will be able to make it with lesser business or a lower price point.

Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the 'same' owners open it back up and focusing on the Taps concept that they currently have in Fleming Island.  Company 'B' can make $$ while Company 'A' takes all the losses.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Bill Hoff on November 22, 2019, 03:37:24 PM
This is an opportunity for COJ to help Hooters at The Landing relocate to Avondale. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: thelakelander on November 22, 2019, 06:04:54 PM
If Hooters goes to Avondale, who's going to anchor Lot J's Live!?
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Bill Hoff on November 23, 2019, 07:26:15 PM
If Hooters goes to Avondale, who's going to anchor Lot J's Live!?

BW3's, of course!
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: tufsu1 on November 24, 2019, 02:44:21 PM
If Hooters goes to Avondale, who's going to anchor Lot J's Live!?

BW3's, of course!

pretty sure neither is part of the plans :)
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Florida Power And Light on April 22, 2020, 08:55:09 PM
Restaurant driven community angst and land use / zone episodes likely brought under control , at least for a time, due to current economic shift, Restaurant “ Gig” model crash.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 22, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
Let’s see how they feel when the seat count needed for alcohol sales gets lowered to 50 seats.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 23, 2020, 09:09:32 AM
Savvy restaurateurs have adapted to the recent circumstances and I think they will come out the other side better off.  1748 Bakehouse is one example that comes to mind.  I had heard of them prior to corona, but lately it seems everyone has been there.  Good marketing? Strategy pivot to survive?  Who knows.  it seems to be working though. 

Poor quality restaurants that probably deserved to die anyway will see an accelerated demise.  Hopefully the Applebees of Avondale will be the first to go.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Florida Power And Light on April 25, 2020, 09:00:38 PM
Past seemingly endless wave of Restaurant Concept land use and rezone consternation will subside, even if only an Appetizer.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: bl8jaxnative on April 26, 2020, 03:58:32 PM

Savvy or lucky?  Savvy restaurateurs before this pandemic were finding ways to do what any savvy biz owner does, maximize high margin items.    Impulse buying is a key part of that.  Not only are the margins super fat on the booze but that booze helps to sell more food.   And that all is based on people sitting down and sitting around.

I'm not as optimistic about a lot of these places surviving.  They may be holding on for now.  But sooner than later landlords will want rent to be paiid, et al.  I woudln't be surprised to see this push things in the direct4ion f fast casual all the more.   But that's just my two bits worth.

And of course that all assumes these place survive the possible coming meat shortage.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: JPalmer on April 28, 2020, 09:00:49 AM
Hopefully the Applebees of Avondale will be the first to go.

Maybe the Chili's of 5-Points will to...
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Florida Power And Light on April 30, 2020, 08:52:52 PM
What a total Waste Of Energy and Light.
April 2020 and the weeds are growing on the sidewalk.
Maybe what we really need is a Pool Hall with a busted window.
A friend was looking for investment property in the adjacent neighborhood....... na, a certain lack of “ Vibrancy”.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Fallen Buckeye on May 02, 2020, 11:40:20 AM

Savvy or lucky?  Savvy restaurateurs before this pandemic were finding ways to do what any savvy biz owner does, maximize high margin items.    Impulse buying is a key part of that.  Not only are the margins super fat on the booze but that booze helps to sell more food.   And that all is based on people sitting down and sitting around.

I'm not as optimistic about a lot of these places surviving.  They may be holding on for now.  But sooner than later landlords will want rent to be paiid, et al.  I woudln't be surprised to see this push things in the direct4ion f fast casual all the more.   But that's just my two bits worth.

And of course that all assumes these place survive the possible coming meat shortage.

Planet Money had an interesting episode a few months ago about how the arrangement of restaurants affects the bottomline. Basically, they made the case that restaurants can almost be thought of more like real estate where people are renting a space to eat. The goal would be to find that sweet spot where you maximize the maximize the number of people having people coming through and how much they spend. They need to stay long enough to spend money especially on high-margin items like alcohol, but leave fast enough to maximize the number of customers.

Point being that the lockdown totally disrupts that normal sales funnel because patrons are not staying to make those high-margin purchases and wait staff doesn't have the opportunity to upsell either. Basically, the restaurants have lost a majority of their sales team and sale opportunities. Unless they increase margins by raising prices, they can't make money, but raising prices could hurt demand at a time when demand has already plummeted. They're between a rock and a hard place. So without a lot of outside intervention, yeah, I see a lot of restaurants closing.
Title: Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
Post by: Florida Power And Light on January 24, 2021, 10:04:28 PM
I live two blocks from this structure and it looks like shit!  Anything would be an improvement.

Anything? What if it was an actual pile of feces?

Ha!
Still looks like........