The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on July 04, 2014, 03:00:01 AM

Title: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on July 04, 2014, 03:00:01 AM
Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3357026703_BV3nBwp-M.jpg)

A brief video presentation from PRC Digital Media on the effort to bring the USS Adams to the Jacksonville Shipyards.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-jul-bring-home-the-uss-adams-to-downtown-jacksonville
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: ronchamblin on July 04, 2014, 06:02:03 AM
Always wondering why the south bank was in the running early, I am pleased that the proposed location for the Adams will be on the north bank. 

Let’s hope that nobody goes Disneyesk and paints this ship teal.  What do the Jaguars have to do with this navy ship?

The focus should be on the technology of a ship, the way it is built, the method through which each of the many systems achieve the capability to maneuver and destroy -- and not on military heritage as if war is good or even necessary in most cases.  If there is focus on war, let it be on the horrendous reality of the errors of war, as allowed, encouraged, and perpetuated by the fools in congress, the executive, and the controlling corporate manufacturers of flesh ripping projectiles, missiles, bombs, aircraft, ships, submarines, and tanks,

The more that victory in war is celebrated, a subtle credence and approval for it is perpetuated.  The men and women who bravely sacrificed their lives and limbs, were part of the machine of war often started by fools, which, once started ... continues until the obvious idiocy of it overcomes the will of the fools to continue it. 

I suspect that "if" the members of congress and the executive, and supporting fools and lackeys, were forced to lead the war in person, in the ground action, exposing themselves to the flesh ripping projectiles and bombs, they would consider with more caution and restraint whether to “go to war”.  The loss in combat of some of these governmental fools instead of the brave and giving military soldiers, sailors, and airmen, would set a better quality to our population  ... raising its average of integrity and common sense.

I’ve always wanted to engage a fantasy.  Once some of the bought fools in our government had encouraged military intervention without any real necessity of it ... I would wish to visit the great and hallowed chambers of our government .. and point to each individual who aggressively supports military action, and say “YOU .. you stupid sonavabitch .... YOU ... get YOUR fucking ass on the front line .... YOU sacrifice YOUR life for this futile and unnecessary military adventure ,,, YOU take the projectile in the center of YOUR fucking head, or suffer as the shrapnel takes off YOUR leg or YOUR fat ass.   

Post Rant:  The Adams can be an excellent forum for teaching technology ... to show the young that for every objective, there is a method of achieving it, and that for every problem, there is a cause ... and for every cause, there is a fix.

It would be great if there could be some “cutaways” on the actual mechanisms of propulsion and guidance.  This could be expensive however. At least, they could show diagrams of the internals of the machinery.  The objective would be to begin the “show” with an explanation of the desired output of any system, and then to explain and show “how” the output is achieved. 

In other words, the ship must be propelled and steered.  It must know where it is on the earth, and in relation to other ships.  Each engine must be monitored, controlled ...  fueled, cooled, and lubricated.  To teach kids that a ship consists of many systems, each having a purpose or output, and that there is an exact method, including inputs, to achieve or realize the purpose, gives the kid a sense of confidence; that is, just knowing that there is order in the universe, and that they can, by knowing the mechanisms conveying that order; control, change, or fix things.

 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: benfranklinbof on July 04, 2014, 07:11:16 AM
I'm not going to lie but that seems like a waste of space. That is a perfect spot for retail. I think retail would bring people to dtjax not a ship museum.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: IrvAdams on July 04, 2014, 07:59:39 AM
The USS Alabama, saved from the scrap yard by the efforts of the citizens of Alabama, has been docked off the coast of Mobile since the Sixties and is nowadays a full museum and park, accompanied in peaceful retirement by several other water and air craft. It is quite a success and still gets good reviews to this day.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the USS Adams will follow a similar tradition and be a big hit and huge draw in this Navy town for many years to come. It will not interfere with other mixed development that organically occurs nearby. It will no doubt be educational, and a popular stopping point for locals and tourists.

Welcome, USS Adams.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 04, 2014, 09:04:22 AM
A well done video.  What is the status of the project?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Noone on July 04, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
The legislation is 2014-426 and there is a Public hearing 7/22/14 in front of the Jacksonville city council.

Very positive project.

I support the USS Charles F. Adams in our new highly restricted 4.8mile Waterfront CRA/DIA zone that has to still be approved by the Jacksonville city council. 2014-305 is also active legislation. New docking Rules and Penalties.

Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: pierre on July 04, 2014, 10:05:09 AM
lol Ron. I am pretty sure it won't be painted teal.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Spitfire on July 04, 2014, 07:15:06 PM
I'm fairly certain that Jacksonville may be the only Navy town without a floating museum, even Cleveland has a couple and they are just on Lake Erie. I truly applaud the Jaguars wanting to take part in bringing the USS Adams here, because once it arrives, it can lead to other floating museums too. However, it should not be at the sake of disrespecting every single Veteran (and throughout the country) in our city by painting it teal.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on July 04, 2014, 08:45:17 PM
Who said it would be painted teal?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ocklawaha on July 04, 2014, 09:10:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/DBNYwxDZ_pA?hl=en_US

Ron, did you know that a JAGUAR is one of the only cats that will actively hunt in the water? Now if we could just find a teal colored one we'd be in business. Actually as a one-time and slightly crumpled swab myself, you'd be amazed at the amount of connection between the local bases and their respective sports teams. Heroes in combat treat heroes in teal to things like a happy vomit trip in a 'Blue Angel' in turn the bases hand out tickets like crazy to school graduating classes (Navy speciality schools such as radar, nuke, etc) and don't be surprised if Jaxson Deville doesn't arrive on the 50 in a Navy MH-53E Sea Dragon! For those that don't know, the military and professional leagues are both 'team sports,' and in MANY ways consider each other brethren.

GO NAVY!
GO JAG'S!
GO POKES! ...Oops I don't know how OSU got into this?!?!
LOL!! ;)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Spitfire on July 04, 2014, 09:16:20 PM
Who said it would be painted teal?

It said it in the video and there were also some artist renderings of how the shipyard would look that were posted on the Adams Facebook page sometime around November or December of last year. In those renderings, the ship's hull, from bow to stern, was shown as being painted Jaguar teal.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: ronchamblin on July 04, 2014, 09:33:28 PM
One great aspect about this display is that the ship is genuine, and speaks the truth of fundamental purpose and technology, much as an old architecturally interesting building ... each built in another time and for a specific purpose other than a shallow facade for tourists.  This honesty is not only refreshing, but because it lacks any intention of colorful novelty and the thin fabric of show for the shallow mood -- which usually dies out after a little time -- the ship will offer many decades of pleasure and education to the curious. 
 
And I agree with others when they say that the Adams will definitely be a reason for people to visit downtown.  Hopefully, some of these visits will encourage the occasional individual to entertain living downtown.  Every business, activity, display, or museum opened in the city core... will add its weight to the growing reasons to live downtown ... thereby increasing the  reasons to open a business downtown. 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: ronchamblin on July 04, 2014, 09:44:18 PM
Thanks Ock.  Love that video.

You have a point in that there is no reason to expect other than friendship and mutual support between the military and the big sports.   

Who knows ... they might just paint the Adams teal.  To do so would sorta be ..... well a ship is supposed to be grey ... and grey keeps the essence of the ship ..... shippy.   ;)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 05, 2014, 12:03:21 AM
I got the impression from the renderings in the video that the Adams was bathed in teal lights. Just like the Wells Fargo building does with the corner treatments, they don't paint them teal for football season.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ocklawaha on July 05, 2014, 01:08:10 AM
Same impression I got Charles.. You could do a LOT with lighting, you could have that ship with a purple neon light on typical nights, light it in red, white and blue, on Memorial, Veterans and 4Th of July holidays. Teal on Game weekends. Pink for a cancer drive... And OH YES, there REALLY was once a pink navy vessel, much to the chagrin of her crew.

There was a need to paint a submarine pink due to the lack of enough red or white lead undercoat paint. The heat from the burning USS Sealion, a Balao-class submarine, also scorched off the black paint of the nearby USS Seadragon and for a time this boat fought with only her red lead undercoat visible. This led Tokyo Rose to disparage American "red pirate submarines."

And for fans of the movie, 'Operation Petticoat.'
There REALLY WAS a torpedoing of a bus by a US Sub during WWII, a feat accomplished by the USS Bowfin.
 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Fallen Buckeye on July 05, 2014, 02:34:57 AM
Just took my sons with their cub scout pack to spend a weekend aboard the USS Yorktown in Charleston Harbor, and I have to say it impressed the heck out of me. They have actually have have 2 other historic ships moored there (USS Laffey and the USS Clamagore) near the foot of the Ravenal Bridge plus a replica Vietnam Camp and climbing wall. They also offer classes on the ships. Our pack took an oceanography class and several other were available. They gather all of the campers together at different points, and they were drawing groups from all over North and South Carolina and Georgia. It was just a well done operation. Although the USS Adams does not have quite as much historical significance as the Laffey or the Yorktown, it could be a fantastic addition to the downtown waterfront if done right. Here's the website for Charleston's ships:

http://www.patriotspoint.org/explore_museum/?gclid=CjkKEQjwodmdBRDm_ZLhorWm68UBEiQAKhO3_bQZ8bCjnTt-lrMVsfdJZLJi-OA53ax19TNU985rB7Lw_wcB (http://www.patriotspoint.org/explore_museum/?gclid=CjkKEQjwodmdBRDm_ZLhorWm68UBEiQAKhO3_bQZ8bCjnTt-lrMVsfdJZLJi-OA53ax19TNU985rB7Lw_wcB)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on July 05, 2014, 12:57:02 PM
If you listened to the video, the reporter mentioned lite up in teal for Jaguar night games, not sure how some of you got painted out of that, anyway I made a donation on the site. Hopefully this will happen
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Spitfire on July 05, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
This is the rendering that I am referring to:

USS Adams project sails closer to success (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/11/20/uss-adams-project-sails-closer-to.html)

(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/1468021/uss-adams-jaguars-logo*600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: ronchamblin on July 06, 2014, 12:30:04 AM
Upon originally seeing the video, with the Adams apparently floodlight-bathed in teal, with the Jaguars on the side -- the thought occurred to me that someone might in the future actually suggest painting the ship teal -- thus my comment on my post ...

"Let’s hope that nobody goes Disneyesk and paints this ship teal.  What do the Jaguars have to do with this navy ship?"

 .. which was intended to be a "hope" that nobody ever succeeded in doing so.  Sorry about my vague opinion, which gave to some the impression that somebody actually said it was to be painted teal.   
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on July 06, 2014, 04:36:15 AM
I wouldn't worry about it, next.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on September 02, 2014, 10:57:00 PM
Quote
USS Adams could float into town as early as next spring

With the Jacksonville City Council signing off on leasing space to the USS Charles F. Adams, the former Navy warship could be in town as early as next spring.

“The Navy has told us it’s not a matter of if but when,” said Daniel Bean, president of the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/08/29/uss-adams-could-float-into-town-as-early-as-next.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: VanDeusen on September 03, 2014, 09:00:13 AM
Did the City Council approve leasing space at the shipyards specifically? It sounds like the Adams will be refurbished well ahead of any major development at the shipyards.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on September 03, 2014, 09:22:59 AM
Did the City Council approve leasing space at the shipyards specifically? It sounds like the Adams will be refurbished well ahead of any major development at the shipyards.

Yes, the City Council approved the Jacksonville Historic Ship Association's lease agreement for the Shipyards, by the Maxwell House plant. From what I understand, Jacksonville should have the USS Adams in about six months, with refurbishment completed by the end of 2015. Once complete, the ship will offer tours and interactive exhibits, and will also be used to host dinners and for special event space. You're right, I can't see any major development of the Shipyards concluding prior to the opening of the naval museum.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 13, 2014, 05:41:13 PM
Quote
Museum ship advocates could get the USS Adams 'any day now'

The USS Adams could be in Jacksonville's possession "any day now."
In August, the City Council approved of turning the licensing of the ship over to the Downtown Investment Authority, so the proper representatives have the approval to run the ship and museum. It was the third time the council gave its blessing to bringing the ship here.

Joe Snowberger, CEO of the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association, said his team is in talks with the Navy, waiting for the official disposition and transfer instructions for the donation of the ship, which should happen at any moment.

After that, the ship will go through some repairs in dry dock and will physically be in Jacksonville some time in the spring. After the ship — which is the last of its kind and was stationed in Mayport for 20 out of its 30-year career — is given to Jacksonville, it will go through some rehab and a makeover. It will cost $3.5 million to get the ship, tow it from its current location in Philadelphia and do the initial first phase rehab — money the association has already raised.

Snowberger said that by this time next year, the ship could be opened in its rudimentary museum phase.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/11/13/museum-ship-advocates-could-get-the-uss-adams-any.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on April 02, 2015, 09:42:15 AM
The Landing is about to lose another tenant... Though I feel this would be a good one to save / connect with the USS Adams. Do we have any updates on when the ship will actually be downtown? I'd hate to see this museum close and never come back due to delays of another similar project.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/04/maritime-museum-may-be-forced-to-close-amidst.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on April 05, 2016, 11:22:46 AM
Sounds like this might take more than originally thought:

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547335

Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on April 05, 2016, 11:51:44 AM
Hmm, remember the days when it was said no public assistance would be needed?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Noone on April 05, 2016, 10:06:08 PM
Hmm, remember the days when it was said no public assistance would be needed?

+1
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: ronchamblin on April 06, 2016, 09:03:03 AM
On an earlier post of a year or two ago … wrapped around a short rant about the MIC and militarism in general, I mentioned how the USS Adams could bring some great positives to downtown, especially as a real-life environment wherein knowledge for the young and old would be available and conveyed; knowledge about solid technology related to systems designed to achieve the full range of a ship’s purpose.

Being a former technical writer on military equipment … radar …. Aircraft instruments etc, -- where my objective was to show technicians system details, schematics, theory of operations, disassembly, troubleshooting, calibration etc, I am going to offer my time (I’ve donate a fair dollar sum already to the Adams project … along with the great Bernie Sanders  ;D ) to assist in designing presentations, including actual cutaways when practical, so that the observer can discover the exact purpose of the system at hand, what is required at its output, what is first at the input, and how the first data is maneuvered, with additional inputs and machinations, to achieve the desired output.

Each system or subsystem on a ship or aircraft has a distinct and profound purpose or objective … in general, via various inputs and an output.  The USS Adams will be a great method to convey to the inquiring mind, especially the minds of the young, that there is order in the universe, and that all one must do so as to perceive and feel the confidence delivered by that perceived order, is to begin to understand the purpose of a system, the essence of its beginning … the path of the energy through it, and how that energy is shaped to achieve the desired output.

Wherever actual physical cutaways are not practical, well designed graphic flows and cutaways could be displayed adjacent to a system, showing the dynamics of the system at hand. 

I invite and encourage this kind of conveyance of knowledge because I am amazed at the technical ignorance (not necessarily a bad thing) of so many adult men … men who might be highly intelligent mathematicians, bankers, attorneys, or computer IT experts … men (and the young) who don’t know how to think about the kind of systems on a large military ship, or any large piece of equipment or vehicle.  Realizing how each field of interest has its language -- mathematics, the computer realm, finance, law, etc -- to be condescending to anyone simply because they have chosen not to learn a language, is unnecessary, unfair, and fruitless.  After all, we all choose the languages we wish to learn, ignoring the ones of less interest to us. 

I am simply saying that the USS Adams would be a great vehicle through which the young and the old could have an opportunity to learn a new language … the language describing military systems designed to perceive, control, navigate, respond, maintain, and destroy.   

The primary achievement of engaging this “teaching” opportunity of the Adams would be that it would convey to the young -- practical and real-time information on how any system is not mysterious and unknowable, as it might at first seem, and that most can be brought to understanding by proper and patient engagements with the realities of it.  The instructional aspect of the Adams could succeed in eliminating or removing some of the bewildered state of mind, as found in many of the young … giving them glimpses of the fact that there “is” order in the universe, so that slowly, a feeling of confidence would creep upon that of bewilderment.   

Gotta get to work.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Dapperdan on April 06, 2016, 09:45:15 AM
Quick question. What happens to floating museums like this, that I assume have no power on their own, when storms come in. I would think a  tropical storm or hurricane would batter the ship to pieces against a dock.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on January 27, 2017, 10:52:00 AM
Permits secured for a pier at the Shipyards property, could arrive by May.

Quote
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549233

A new Downtown riverfront attraction is getting closer to reality, according to attorney Dan Bean, president of the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association.

He said the USS Charles F. Adams will be put in dry-dock in Philadelphia on March 7, where it will be prepared to be towed to Jacksonville and moored at the Shipyards property, creating the only warship museum attraction in Florida.

Bean said the permits have been secured for the pier and the Cold War-era guided missile frigate could arrive by May.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on January 27, 2017, 11:09:51 AM
Man, I really hope they can maintain this thing if they get it here.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Jason on January 27, 2017, 12:09:33 PM
Whoa!  That sounds like good news.  Very curious to see how it fits with the overall plans for the Shipyards site.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: JaxVision on January 27, 2017, 09:50:46 PM
This is great news! Hopefully they can turn that section of the shipyards into a small museum and park area for those visiting the Adams. All we need now is for the the aquarium to become reality on the river.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on January 27, 2017, 11:01:16 PM
Great News,
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Spitfire on February 08, 2017, 11:06:55 AM
Finally!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on February 08, 2017, 11:52:12 AM
This is great news! Hopefully they can turn that section of the shipyards into a small museum and park area for those visiting the Adams. All we need now is for the the aquarium to become reality on the river.
Get out.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: FlaBoy on February 08, 2017, 03:59:05 PM
Has there been any discussion of possibly moving the location of the ship closer to the core where the old courthouse parking deck is currently?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 08, 2017, 04:30:25 PM
^That ship has sailed. The permits have already been secured.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ocklawaha on February 08, 2017, 05:23:04 PM
Fair winds and following seas!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: MusicMan on February 08, 2017, 05:26:34 PM
If there is room then add a Jacksonville made Liberty Ship and a replica PT Boat. That would bring a lot of folks down for a look or walk through.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ocklawaha on February 08, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Be very cool indeed if we could find a surviving Huckin's Yacht PT Boat. Failing that it might be possible to have them build a new copy from the quadraconic plans, wonder if the FSCJ shop could recreate 3 Packard, 12 cylinder, 1,350 horsepower engines?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 08, 2017, 06:16:59 PM
If there is room then add a Jacksonville made Liberty Ship and a replica PT Boat. That would bring a lot of folks down for a look or walk through.

There's only two surviving Liberty ships that were built in Jacksonville. They are the John W. Brown in Baltimore and the Jeremiah O'Brien in San Francisco. Both are floating living history museums.  I don't believe any of the Huckins PT boats remain today.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: MusicMan on February 08, 2017, 09:23:03 PM
Build a replica of JFK's PT Boat. That would be awesome.  Bring in other ships..........triple masted training ships, whatever. It all will work.

For God's sake, this is supposed to be a Navy town. Time Ander Crenshaw stepped up to the plate a did something other than talk!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 28, 2017, 12:14:35 PM
Dry dock space looks to be secured for repairs.

USS Adams should be docked at the Shipyards by September.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549617

Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on March 28, 2017, 12:36:46 PM
According to the article, they still need $1.4 million to do anything other than dock it at the Shipyards. 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on March 28, 2017, 01:05:10 PM
They are working on one main donor who has agreed to fund a lot of it, but seems to be stalling.  Household name around these parts.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 28, 2017, 02:19:42 PM
They are working on one main donor who has agreed to fund a lot of it, but seems to be stalling.  Household name around these parts.

Stephen Dare?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on March 28, 2017, 02:26:03 PM
My guess would be the multi-billionaire half the city wants to become our personal sugar daddy.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 28, 2017, 09:59:27 PM
Who's next?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NE7n38lds7M/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: I-10east on March 28, 2017, 10:05:33 PM
Ahhh!!!! *Jerry Lawler scream*
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 28, 2017, 10:33:27 PM
My guess would be the multi-billionaire half the city wants to become our personal sugar daddy.

You've got to think that this would be the smartest $1.4 million Khan ever spent in terms of goodwill.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on March 29, 2017, 06:58:22 AM
My guess would be the multi-billionaire half the city wants to become our personal sugar daddy.

You've got to think that this would be the smartest $1.4 million Khan ever spent in terms of goodwill.

Is it though?  Are there that many people in the city concerned with brining this ship to town?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 29, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
^That specifically, no clue. But Jacksonville is a proud military city with a huge Navy presence. I would imagine that a lot of potential blowback with essentially gifting the Jags Met Park would be mitigated by gestures like this.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on March 29, 2017, 01:25:01 PM
^agree, but it's not him.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: FlaBoy on March 29, 2017, 02:36:05 PM
^agree, but it's not him.

Weavers?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Noone on March 29, 2017, 08:44:27 PM
Who's next?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NE7n38lds7M/hqdefault.jpg)

+1
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: civil42806 on March 29, 2017, 09:07:16 PM
The real question is money going to be set aside to remove it in 10-15 years?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: lastdaysoffla on March 29, 2017, 11:14:06 PM
The real question is money going to be set aside to remove it in 10-15 years?


Why would they need to remove it? The USS Yorktown has been sitting in Charleston Harbor for 42 years
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on March 30, 2017, 07:04:04 AM
He's probably referring to a situation like this:

Queen Mary needs $289 million in urgent repairs to prevent flooding, hull collapse, study says
Quote
e Queen Mary tourist attraction, moored in Long Beach’s harbor, is in such bad shape that its hull could collapse and flood if repairs costing as much as $289 million are not completed in the next few years.

That is one of the conclusions of a marine survey, conducted by naval architects and vessel experts at the request of Long Beach city officials, to assess the structural condition of the ship.

“The very severe structural steel corrosion has resulted in 1½ inch thin tank top being rusted away to nothing in some places,” the report said. “We predict at this rate of corrosion some internal collapse of the Queen Mary’s structure will occur within ten years unless major action is taken soon.”
Full article: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-queen-mary-repairs-20170314-story.html

Keeping the Yorktown afloat: A 40-year labor of love
Quote
Keeping the Yorktown afloat at Patriots Point has always been a challenge, but her custodians believe they have finally worked out a plan.

Although the World War II aircraft carrier is one of the state’s top tourist attractions, ticket sales have never been enough to pay for her upkeep — not even at $22 a head now, plus $5 for parking.

“Unrealistic dreams and visions for Patriots Point have always been part of the problem here,” said Patriots Point Development Authority executive director Mac Burdette, who came aboard in 2010. “The fiction of all that was that ticket sales and the gift shop would be enough to maintain it. This is the first time we really had a plan that made sense.”

The plan includes modernizing exhibits to boost ticket sales from 270,000 to 300,000. But the bedrock is income from a lease agreement for a new development near the Yorktown.

The review of Patriots Point’s past, present and future comes on the eve of its 40th anniversary celebration. Tickets will be $2 Saturday — the same price as opening day June 3, 1976.

The Yorktown will need a $60 million restoration within the next few years, according to senior curator David Clark. Patriots Point will need $6 million a year from land leases for maintenance, according to Burdette.
Full article: http://www.postandcourier.com/business/keeping-the-yorktown-af-loat-a--year-labor-of/article_efe09c15-5c93-5192-8037-1ee60860ea7f.html


Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on March 30, 2017, 08:29:10 AM
I've got the same concerns.  It costs tens of thousands of dollars a month to keep a ship like this afloat.  Let's be real, this isn't a high draw battleship or carrier, it wont even really be visible from the interstate.  Funding ongoing maintenance is going to be a constant struggle.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on March 30, 2017, 08:46:43 AM
Yes, they'll need to get pretty creative with funding and generating revenue.  These types of attractions are hard to keep afloat without subsidies at some point.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snufflee on March 30, 2017, 12:42:55 PM
Yes, they'll need to get pretty creative with funding and generating revenue.  These types of attractions are hard to keep afloat without subsidies at some point.

Subsidies that can run in the millions. These old ships are extremely expensive to maintain to allow for visitors to get a complete look at the ship. The issue with an old destroyer is that by itself will never be able to generate the needed revenue to be self sustaining, at least on an old CV you can use the spaces for a multitude of revenue generating events.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: remc86007 on March 30, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is there any reason this thing actually needs to be floating? Couldn't cement be poured underneath it to create a dry dock of sorts?

Another solution could be "trading up" every 30 years or so; when this one becomes dangerous, tow it out to see and make it a fish habitat, then bring in a bigger, newer ship? It sounds cheaper than repairing the same ship over and over.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on March 30, 2017, 03:04:58 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is there any reason this thing actually needs to be floating? Couldn't cement be poured underneath it to create a dry dock of sorts?

The ship is longer than a city block.  I suspect a real dry dock would cost pretty money and need to be maintained as well. If we paid for one of those, I'd rather it be used as a part of an active shipyard.

Or are you suggesting putting it on land or filling in the river? 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on March 30, 2017, 05:11:49 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is there any reason this thing actually needs to be floating? Couldn't cement be poured underneath it to create a dry dock of sorts?

Another solution could be "trading up" every 30 years or so; when this one becomes dangerous, tow it out to see and make it a fish habitat, then bring in a bigger, newer ship? It sounds cheaper than repairing the same ship over and over.

Either of those cost lots of money.  You can't just tow a derelict ship to sea and sink it.  This thing is almost 500' long.

The most probable scenario if the ship goes to shit is the Navy takes it back and sells it for scrap. 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: civil42806 on March 30, 2017, 08:03:41 PM
I've got the same concerns.  It costs tens of thousands of dollars a month to keep a ship like this afloat.  Let's be real, this isn't a high draw battleship or carrier, it wont even really be visible from the interstate.  Funding ongoing maintenance is going to be a constant struggle.

"BINGO" its not a battleship or an aircraft carrier.  Most tourist will be taking I-295 around town so they won't see it.  The Alabama, is easily visiible from I-10 and US 90, it has the USS drum next to it, not to mention a nice collection of airplanes as well as a very nice park surrounding the area.  Plus when the causeway and tunnel are backed up in Mobile for miles its a nice place to take break and enjoy the view of the bay.

If its just the Uss Adams isolated by itself, its going to be a hard slog to make it successful.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Westside Guy on March 30, 2017, 08:54:33 PM
While I'm excited for the project and will be there on opening day, I share everyone's concerns about the long term viability of the Adams here. We should have saved the Saratoga or the Kennedy. Those would have been much more effective in drawing people downtown and being self sufficient.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on March 30, 2017, 09:30:05 PM
Now if they could berth the USS Florida next to the Adams when it's decommissioned that would be another story 8)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on March 30, 2017, 10:15:44 PM
Is federal funding an option? The U.S. military has a substantial public relations budget. Surely you could make the case that a floating naval museum in the heart of a Top 40 market would be good for community outreach and recruitment. What about sponsorship? [Company X] presents the USS Adams. Community First offered $250k to slap their name on a stage at Hemming Park, surely the Adams could beat that. What about private events? That bridge with that view would make for an amazing bar. I assume there would be a gift shop on-board, and you could sell USS Adams merch around the city with proceeds going to maintenance and operations.

Call me an optimist, but I think the Adams has the chance to be really successful in that location, a minor-game changer along the riverwalk even, if Shipyards development finally moves forward. If it's an isolated attraction though, I do worry.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on October 11, 2017, 03:12:27 PM
All funding for the USS Adams has officially been secured.

The DIA is about to sign off on a 10-year lease at the Shipyards, with two additional 5-year options.

Could be here as early as January.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/10/10/funding-for-uss-adams-secured-here-is-when-its.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on October 11, 2017, 03:57:50 PM
Whaaaat!?!? That's awesome! 4 years later haha. The image in the article shows it parked outside of River City Brewing company and painted with Jaguars colors/graphics. Anyone know if that's where it'll be docked and if that color scheme is accurate?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Jim on October 11, 2017, 04:13:47 PM
Whaaaat!?!? That's awesome! 4 years later haha. The image in the article shows it parked outside of River City Brewing company and painted with Jaguars colors/graphics. Anyone know if that's where it'll be docked and if that color scheme is accurate?
All creative license by the artist at this point.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on October 11, 2017, 05:26:54 PM
Whaaaat!?!? That's awesome! 4 years later haha. The image in the article shows it parked outside of River City Brewing company and painted with Jaguars colors/graphics. Anyone know if that's where it'll be docked and if that color scheme is accurate?

It's an old image that's been floating around for quite a while.

I think the original plan was to dock it in that area, before plans were changed to the Shipyards.

Iguana imagines the USS Adams being a key tenet of their new Veterans Park, which will take the place of the existing Metro Park.

(https://snag.gy/v8fXBN.jpg)

Not sure how you house a floating museum in a desolate, heavily contaminated brownfield in the interim, but hopefully everything comes together.

Won't pretend to know a thing about the logistics of dry-docking, but if we're thinking Convention Center at the old Courthouse site, it would be kind of cool to see it docked in that new cove created by the demolition of Coastline. Conventioneers love their cocktail hours. How unique would it be to offer one on the deck of the USS Adams. It would also be a great Riverwalk feature a little closer to downtown.

(https://gaiconsultants.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Coastline-and-Liberty_01.jpg)

Sincerely hope we aren't thinking of all of these things in a vacuum. We're talking a potentially 20-year commitment to a location. And location could make or break a difficult project like this.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on October 11, 2017, 06:47:10 PM
I think the alcove you pointed out would be 1000x more successful in the near term future. It's much easier to access, doesn't require all of the hoops the ship yards will and as you said it's easier to host parties next to that massive hotel. My only concern short term would be easy & free/cheap parking.
In the alcove spot you could also tie it into the top to bottom tour and connect it with some sort of mosh tour/field trip.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on October 12, 2017, 09:56:29 AM
The Adams is going on the east side of the pier next to the Berkman marina, known as Pier 1.  The ongoing fundraising will be to fix the pier and build a modular entrance building and memorial park at the end of the pier.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on October 12, 2017, 09:18:23 PM
If they're able to get it here by January, does that mean it would be ready for tours within a few weeks? Or would the repairs and everything else not happen until it got here? We'll be hosting an event downtown in April and I'm curious if it'll be ready by then.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: RiversideRambler on October 12, 2017, 10:35:24 PM
Personally, I'd rather take a tour of Khan's yacht.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: fieldafm on October 13, 2017, 08:40:53 AM
If they're able to get it here by January, does that mean it would be ready for tours within a few weeks? Or would the repairs and everything else not happen until it got here? We'll be hosting an event downtown in April and I'm curious if it'll be ready by then.

That group has been claiming that this ship will be on Jacksonville's shoreline 'this year' for several years. If it were me, I'd plan on hosting that event at an actual real-life venue.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: fieldafm on October 13, 2017, 08:49:14 AM
I don't understand the obsession with this ship, or why people think that it is going to be a huge crowd draw. 

Their latest claim is that it will bring an 'additional' 2,000-3,000 people to downtown every day, resulting in over a million visitors annually.

That's 4 times the amount of attendance at Patriots Point Naval & Maritime Museum in downtown Charleston, which includes three warships (one being an aircraft carrier) and is in the heart of one of the top tourist destinations in the country.  That museum opened in 1976 and just celebrated its 10 millionth visitor this year.

As a comparison locally, 1 million annual visitors would be three times the annual attendance at Jumbo Shrimp games- which just set their all-time attendance record this year (and offer tickets as low as $5).
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Josh on October 13, 2017, 09:21:09 AM
If they're able to get it here by January, does that mean it would be ready for tours within a few weeks? Or would the repairs and everything else not happen until it got here? We'll be hosting an event downtown in April and I'm curious if it'll be ready by then.

The plan is to allow deck tours as soon as possible when the ship arrives, while the rest of the restoration and associated work is done inside the ship.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Jim on October 13, 2017, 10:29:41 AM
I don't understand the obsession with this ship, or why people think that it is going to be a huge crowd draw. 

Their latest claim is that it will bring an 'additional' 2,000-3,000 people to downtown every day, resulting in over a million visitors annually.
They probably need to take a 0 off of those attendance claims.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on October 13, 2017, 10:37:29 AM
I could see them averaging 3-500/day pretty easily. Between sports district and downtown events, field trips, vets and random visitors. That's still 3-500 more people doing something downtown more often and longer than before.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 13, 2017, 10:51:48 AM
The numbers don't sound financially sustainable. If it makes it to Jax, it will something taxpayers will eventually be on the hook for.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on October 13, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
I think it's a cool project, but unfortunately, I also worry that the cart's coming before the horse.

Seems like it would have a much better shot at success 5-8 years from now, if and when proposed projects like the Shipyards, Veteran's Park, Coastline/Convention Center, the District, and the Trio come to fruition and invigorate the riverwalk and downtown core.

I'd love to know what break-even would look like for operations and maintenance.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 13, 2017, 09:57:39 PM
FYI, when I was young growing up in Jax, the Navy used to regularly bring active ships to dock downtown along the Northbank and open them to public tours.  Often, they had one or two for July 4th.  They did the same for ships at Mayport, particularly for the several aircraft carriers that were based there.  They were so regular, there were never any long lines, as I recall.

Looks like those days are forever over unless you have connections or are a VIP.

Aside from what appeal the Adams may have, I agree the finances of maintaining this ship and operating it as a tourist attraction would appear difficult to "keep it afloat".  It might bring in some traffic as an entertainment venue, but I wonder how it could be configured to serve extensive food and drink menus to decent numbers of people and how the likely tight spaces on a ship like this could be opened up into the larger open/unobstructed spaces most events/meetings would demand.  Also, would it be able to easily flow people in such spaces to a view of the City and the river?  Maybe a Navy veteran could explain.

I think its backers should be told that, under almost no circumstances, should they count on the taxpayers subsidizing this if it doesn't work out otherwise.  Jax just has too many other priorities to fund right now and taking care of this ship can't be cheap.  Would be interesting to see what numbers they are using to "break even" or better.

I would think retired carriers (e.g. NYC and Charleston) would be the ultimate draw among ships.  Would be interesting to compare with their economics.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Spitfire on December 05, 2017, 10:01:40 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is there any reason this thing actually needs to be floating? Couldn't cement be poured underneath it to create a dry dock of sorts?

Another solution could be "trading up" every 30 years or so; when this one becomes dangerous, tow it out to see and make it a fish habitat, then bring in a bigger, newer ship? It sounds cheaper than repairing the same ship over and over.

Either of those cost lots of money.  You can't just tow a derelict ship to sea and sink it.  This thing is almost 500' long.

The most probable scenario if the ship goes to shit is the Navy takes it back and sells it for scrap.

Many ships are actually turned into artificial reefs at the end of their life. My squadron was a part of a number of Ops to do just that.

A few examples, both military and civilian.....

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/05/10/perfect-storm-ship-sunk-becomes-part-of-artificial-reef/ (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/05/10/perfect-storm-ship-sunk-becomes-part-of-artificial-reef/)

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/04/artificial-reefs-around-the-world/100042/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/04/artificial-reefs-around-the-world/100042/)

https://www.local10.com/news/ship-to-be-turned-into-artificial-reef-in-pompano-beach (https://www.local10.com/news/ship-to-be-turned-into-artificial-reef-in-pompano-beach)

https://www.inverse.com/article/15787-10-years-later-after-sinking-the-aircraft-carrier-uss-oriskany-is-a-healthy-reef (https://www.inverse.com/article/15787-10-years-later-after-sinking-the-aircraft-carrier-uss-oriskany-is-a-healthy-reef)


Aside from what appeal the Adams may have, I agree the finances of maintaining this ship and operating it as a tourist attraction would appear difficult to "keep it afloat".  It might bring in some traffic as an entertainment venue, but I wonder how it could be configured to serve extensive food and drink menus to decent numbers of people and how the likely tight spaces on a ship like this could be opened up into the larger open/unobstructed spaces most events/meetings would demand.  Also, would it be able to easily flow people in such spaces to a view of the City and the river?  Maybe a Navy veteran could explain.

I think its backers should be told that, under almost no circumstances, should they count on the taxpayers subsidizing this if it doesn't work out otherwise.  Jax just has too many other priorities to fund right now and taking care of this ship can't be cheap.  Would be interesting to see what numbers they are using to "break even" or better.

I would think retired carriers (e.g. NYC and Charleston) would be the ultimate draw among ships.  Would be interesting to compare with their economics.

I'm a Navy Vet, and the first ship that I ever set foot aboard was the USS Massachusetts (battleship) in Fall River, MA. I still haven't visited the Intrepid or Midway, but an S-3B Viking, with my name on it, is aboard the USS Hornet in San Francisco.  As far as I am aware, something like a bar wouldn't be considered to have on board a floating museum that's meant to be educational. No opening up of spaces and the like.

I served aboard carriers and I love checking out other carriers, but the small ships are just as awesome. You shouldn't discount them.

As for what happens when the ships just get too costly, like I said above, artificial reefs are usually the answer. For example, the USS Clamagore, at Patriots Point, in Charleston was just approved for sinking this past January.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/local-govt--politics/palm-beach-county-oks-million-for-sinking-sub-artificial-reef/RCRwSApCpPxvFCPgqkBWmM/ (http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/local-govt--politics/palm-beach-county-oks-million-for-sinking-sub-artificial-reef/RCRwSApCpPxvFCPgqkBWmM/)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 05, 2017, 11:21:50 PM
Wow. $6 million to make the sub structurally safe. That's a lot of money to maintain a floating museum.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: vicupstate on December 06, 2017, 08:29:38 AM
You usually see these type of floating museums in cities/neighborhoods that already have a lot of tourism and it is clustered with other attractions. I would proceed very carefully and without rose colored glasses. I could see this being a big money pit if not done the right way and with realistic expectations. 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 06, 2017, 09:42:48 AM
It's a money pit already. That's why it still isn't here.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 06, 2017, 10:01:20 AM
You usually see these type of floating museums in cities/neighborhoods that already have a lot of tourism and it is clustered with other attractions. I would proceed very carefully and without rose colored glasses. I could see this being a big money pit if not done the right way and with realistic expectations. 

Seems rather ill-conceived to spend all that money bringing it to Jacksonville and dry-docking it, only to hang it out to dry in an isolated brownfield that will likely be under remediation for years to come.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Josh on December 21, 2018, 04:10:10 PM
So much for the Adams

https://twitter.com/Davidcawton/status/1076222517482831872
Quote
Breaking: per the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association:

The US Navy will NOT donate the USS CHARLES F ADAMS (DDG-2) to the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association as a museum in Jacksonville.

The ship will be scrapped.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 21, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
Interesting. I thought it was reported the ship was on its way to Jax and that all the necessary funding had been secured?! What happened for this to end so abruptly?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: pierre on December 21, 2018, 05:35:54 PM
Well that is a shame
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: civil42806 on December 21, 2018, 06:22:49 PM
The city dodged a bullet with the adams
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kiva on December 21, 2018, 08:29:57 PM
The city dodged a bullet with the adams
High maintenance expenses? Lack of interest? No way to pay for upkeep? Explain please.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 21, 2018, 08:43:29 PM
Floating ship museums are well known money pits.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 21, 2018, 09:16:48 PM
Floating ship museums are well known money pits.

Especially when surrounded by distressed condo shells, toxic brownfields, and a giant hole.

I think it had a much better shot at being viable 10 years down the road when there's more (hopefully) more complementary development in that area.

I do feel really badly for everyone who has worked so hard to make this a reality, however. Seemed like a great group of people behind it, and I don't even want to think of how many thousands of hours have been wasted by city and state officials and the DIA working on this, only to have the Navy change their mind.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 21, 2018, 09:34:54 PM
Any idea on why the Navy would change their mind?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 21, 2018, 09:35:42 PM
Is there any official word?  Was it a DOD decision, and if so, why? 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 21, 2018, 09:40:22 PM
I don't think it was the Navy or even DOD. You must keep in mind that Museum groups that are seeking to acquire a retired/decommissioned Navy vessel have got to prove to the Navy that they are deadly serious about bringing these ships to the designated areas and making them not only a success, but a resounding success. For example, look at the USS MIDWAY Aircraft Carrier in downtown San Diego (for those who don't know, she is the Sister Ship of USS FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT which was homeported in Mayport for 21 years before her decommissioning in 1977). The Midway was in Mothballs for about 10 years, saved from the scrappers torch in and around 2002, and has been a Museum for about 16 or 17 years now, and is now one of the most successful Museums in the entire nation. The Navy will not hand over any of their retired/decommissioned ships to just anyone; if there is little to no interest, they will deny the group the ship and just scrap it. So, that being said, I believe that Jax somehow dropped the ball, and the Navy perceived little to no interest, or even sound fiscal and/or overall planning, relative to bringing the Adams to Jax. I could be wrong, but being a retired Navy Senior Enlisted, I will tell you, that is probably the jest of the case about the Adams. You have got to show fisted energy, sharp planning, sound and aggressive fiscal acquisition relative to monetary sustenance, and overall fortitude and aggressiveness to appease the Navy in handing the ship over to such a Museum Group. Just a thought here.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 21, 2018, 09:55:32 PM
One more thing. When these retired/decommissioned Navy ships are scrapped, they are sold by the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service, to companies that will break them down and scrap them (usually steel/mineral/alloy companies); i.e., the Navy/DOD makes money from selling these retired and decommissioned ships to those companies. So, if the Navy gives a ship to a group or organization, usually for a Museum, then that group or organization had better have a well laid out and successful plan to ensure that the new mission for the retired ship is successful because they may view it as losing money by cancelling the scrapping if they turn the ship over to a Museum group and the new mission for the Ship as a Museum is not a success. Once the Navy turns the ship over to the Museum Group, it (the Navy) no longer has no interest(s) in that vessel. It is then owned solely by that group or organization and if the Museum is a failure, it is then the responsibility of the Museum Group to dispose of the Ship.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 21, 2018, 11:21:24 PM
Is there any official word?  Was it a DOD decision, and if so, why? 

I've been asking around tonight, and even though a lot of people online are suggesting that the Navy got a better offer to scrap it, I'm getting the impression that Heights is probably pretty accurate here:

Quote
I believe that Jax somehow dropped the ball, and the Navy perceived little to no interest, or even sound fiscal and/or overall planning, relative to bringing the Adams to Jax. I could be wrong, but being a retired Navy Senior Enlisted, I will tell you, that is probably the jest of the case about the Adams.

The group might have had the funds to get the ship here, but the Navy might not have been sold on their long term plans to sustain it as a permanent attraction.

It's also worth pointing out that after being in talks with the group for years, the Navy killed the plan within a week of the city announcing that no convention center would be built on the adjacent Courthouse property. Correlation isn't causation, but the timing is interesting.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on December 22, 2018, 09:00:28 AM
This is for the best.  Jacksonville doesn't need another money pit.  Our history of maintaining anything is terrible.  If we can't keep up with a fountain or The Landing, how are we going to maintain a metal hulk resting in salt water?  What we need is a destination type attraction such as an amusement park, entertainment district, even a spruced-up beach.  Use the money collected for the Adams to make the downtown area a better place.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: DTWD_NW904 on December 22, 2018, 12:41:01 PM
I totally agree Snake
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on December 22, 2018, 05:10:58 PM
All that money donated. I wonder who’s pocket that goes in?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on December 22, 2018, 07:49:31 PM
The city dodged a bullet with the adams
High maintenance expenses? Lack of interest? No way to pay for upkeep? Explain please.

All of the above.  This thing would have been an unfunded floating eyesore in 5 years.  The Navy probably recognized that and didn't want to have to deal with it.

Great news.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 22, 2018, 08:05:25 PM
Is there any official word?  Was it a DOD decision, and if so, why? 

I've been asking around tonight, and even though a lot of people online are suggesting that the Navy got a better offer to scrap it, I'm getting the impression that Heights is probably pretty accurate here:

Quote
I believe that Jax somehow dropped the ball, and the Navy perceived little to no interest, or even sound fiscal and/or overall planning, relative to bringing the Adams to Jax. I could be wrong, but being a retired Navy Senior Enlisted, I will tell you, that is probably the jest of the case about the Adams.

The group might have had the funds to get the ship here, but the Navy might not have been sold on their long term plans to sustain it as a permanent attraction.

It's also worth pointing out that after being in talks with the group for years, the Navy killed the plan within a week of the city announcing that no convention center would be built on the adjacent Courthouse property. Correlation isn't causation, but the timing is interesting.
Yes your impression of what I said is spot on. Look...the Navy, or DOD (which really does not make the decisions of this sort it is the USN), yes could get good offers from scrap companies. But if a group, or organization comes forward with a good and solid plan for the vessel to become a Museum, coupled with a plan for sustained superior funds acquisition and sustenance for the day to day operation and maintenance of that vessel and the group which will own the vessel, they are willing to turn the vessel over to that group. 2 to 10 million dollars or more for scrapping is just a drop in the bucket for the USN, and it's not like they will miss it being that requests for these vessels from these groups are not in fact a dime a dozen, so to speak. So I still believe, based on my administrative and financial prowess obtained through 20 years of Naval Service, that Jax dropped the ball and had a very weak plan and justification for the acquisition of the Adams.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 22, 2018, 08:21:32 PM
Lastly, the Navy has a program called "Navy Ship Donation Program. They give, through a detailed instruction with the same subject, rules, regulations, and procedures governing the acquisition and application to request a retired vessel for donation to a donee. I will list the link below for this program. You can review the entire "instruction," however, pay particular attention to paragraph 3., subparagraph(s) c and d and under subparagraph d, subparagraphs (1) through (4). From me reading and reviewing this document/instructions, it becomes more and more clear that the Navy felt Jax didn't measure up, or did not submit a viable plan through the application/acquisition process.

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Portals/103/Documents/TeamShips/SEA21/InactiveShips/Donation/04520-01B_Final.pdf
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 23, 2018, 02:59:09 PM
^Really great info Heights!

Thanks for lending your expertise on the subject!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 26, 2018, 02:02:35 PM
Well...the below article and link pretty much sums it up about the Adams. Who knows whose telling the truth? The Museum Association is blaming the Navy; again, you have to have a well put together application, in sync with the Navy's instructions on how to submit the application in accordance with program instructions. I also wonder whether the city had anything to do, or input, in the application to the Navy to acquire the Adams. Enjoy.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/group-navy-to-scrap-uss-charles-f-adams-not-donate-it-to-jacksonville
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 26, 2018, 02:38:45 PM
I've said it a few times, but the shell game here continues to crack me up. The USS Adams group believes the ship will do well because of the phantom amusement park. The amusement park/Hard Rock thinks it will do well because of the phantom convention center. The convention center thinks it will do well because of the phantom entertainment complex. The entertainment complex thinks it will do well on non-events days because of the phantom clown car system.

Quote
Bean said the group will look at other retired Navy ships or try to obtain one on display in another city.

“None of the warships on display will sit in front of an amusement park which is another reason we believed the USS Adams would do well in Jacksonville,” Bean said.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on December 27, 2018, 09:07:42 AM
Sounds like the city was noncommital on the space as well, according to the T-U.

Quote
The main factors any group seeking a museum ship has to consider are having money to maintain the vessel and a stable, secure place where it can be moored.

The Adams was intended to be moved to an area along the Shipyards on the Northbank and was shown in conceptual plans for the area’s redevelopment that Jaguars owner Shad Khan presented to city officials in March.

But an unsigned development agreement between the city and the ship society that was circulated to City Council members in June said the ship could be required to move “without cause” — for any reason — on seven months’ notice from the city.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 27, 2018, 10:26:25 AM
These guys were on the radio this morning. If they can't get the USS Adams they're going after another ship. The update on WJCT said they're working with the Navy on looking at the possibility of getting a ship that currently has no wharf.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 27, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
If the problem was the Navy did not have confidence in their financing arrangements, how will that change with a different ship?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on December 27, 2018, 11:45:00 AM
Smaller ship perhaps? I guess they want a ship but I wonder if it would be cheaper and more financially sustainable to take an existing building and retrofit a space into a maritime/naval museum?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snufflee on December 27, 2018, 12:25:49 PM
No size ship will work if the location doesn't allow for the "navy" of volunteers to perform the upkeep. The Midway Museum in San Diego is successful because the Active Duty force supports the project with a tremendous amount of man hours.  When I was active duty (17 years in San Diego) my pre-retirement command adopted the division spaces to rehab and repaint that equated with our ratings. The Midway as an Aircraft Carrier was capable of hosting retirements, change of commands, CPO Pride Day, and I even attended a dual military spouse wedding. The location of the pier the Midway was berthed in was across the street from Navy Region Southwest HQ, and an easy drive from both North Island and NBSD. I often hopped on the trolley from NBSD when I was on the USS Tarawa to attend and event at the Midway then walked over to PETCO park to catch a Padres game. I maybe mistaken but none of these events are capable to be held on an old destroyer, and the location would make it prohibitive for the Navy community to adopt the ship and provide the volunteer hours necessary to make it cost effective. 
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on December 27, 2018, 08:45:16 PM
No size ship will work if the location doesn't allow for the "navy" of volunteers to perform the upkeep. The Midway Museum in San Diego is successful because the Active Duty force supports the project with a tremendous amount of man hours.  When I was active duty (17 years in San Diego) my pre-retirement command adopted the division spaces to rehab and repaint that equated with our ratings. The Midway as an Aircraft Carrier was capable of hosting retirements, change of commands, CPO Pride Day, and I even attended a dual military spouse wedding. The location of the pier the Midway was berthed in was across the street from Navy Region Southwest HQ, and an easy drive from both North Island and NBSD. I often hopped on the trolley from NBSD when I was on the USS Tarawa to attend and event at the Midway then walked over to PETCO park to catch a Padres game. I maybe mistaken but none of these events are capable to be held on an old destroyer, and the location would make it prohibitive for the Navy community to adopt the ship and provide the volunteer hours necessary to make it cost effective. 
Good points snufflee; but I still smell something rank behind the scenes. I think Lakelander brought up a good point. Anyhoo, it just bothers me that the Navy turned them down on acquiring the Adams, and now they want to pursue another vessel; will it be the same type? Smaller type vessel? Or maybe they are going "whole hog" and will try to bring the Kennedy in (dream on...not downtown, and good luck finding a good spot to berth her); don't think it won't be the Kennedy though, like "Lake" said, possibly a smaller ship maybe a frigate. We shall see. This will be interesting.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 27, 2018, 09:55:55 PM
Could the Navy be so cautious because no matter who has the ship in their care, it still reflects on the USN?

If they do gift it and it becomes more of a wreck due to lack of upkeep due to funding due to.....  it's still a Navy vessel.

It seems they're doing their due diligence and I can't really blame them.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on February 12, 2019, 03:46:33 PM
https://residentnews.net/2019/02/01/navy-changes-course-on-plan-for-uss-adams-in-jacksonville/

This might not be over.  It looks like they are trying to bring someone else's headache here  ::)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 12, 2019, 04:21:01 PM
No size ship will work if the location doesn't allow for the "navy" of volunteers to perform the upkeep. The Midway Museum in San Diego is successful because the Active Duty force supports the project with a tremendous amount of man hours.  When I was active duty (17 years in San Diego) my pre-retirement command adopted the division spaces to rehab and repaint that equated with our ratings. The Midway as an Aircraft Carrier was capable of hosting retirements, change of commands, CPO Pride Day, and I even attended a dual military spouse wedding. The location of the pier the Midway was berthed in was across the street from Navy Region Southwest HQ, and an easy drive from both North Island and NBSD. I often hopped on the trolley from NBSD when I was on the USS Tarawa to attend and event at the Midway then walked over to PETCO park to catch a Padres game. I maybe mistaken but none of these events are capable to be held on an old destroyer, and the location would make it prohibitive for the Navy community to adopt the ship and provide the volunteer hours necessary to make it cost effective.

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment.  There is no navy base even close to Mobile and they host the USS Alabama - quite impressively I might add.  The USS Batfish is in Muskogee, OK and they are 450 miles from the nearest open water.  My money is on the Navy finding that the City lacks the ability to maintain it - which is a darn good assumption on the Navy's part.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: driddle61 on February 12, 2019, 08:36:33 PM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on February 12, 2019, 09:01:39 PM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude

Don’t blame him, it’s the Khan and the Jaguars fault.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 12, 2019, 09:29:46 PM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude

Maybe the City should trying fixing things.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on February 13, 2019, 03:23:15 AM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude

Don’t blame him, it’s the Khan and the Jaguars fault.

I doubt he blames Khan and the Jaguars so much as thinks the city has its priorities out of order.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 13, 2019, 08:41:18 AM
https://residentnews.net/2019/02/01/navy-changes-course-on-plan-for-uss-adams-in-jacksonville/

This might not be over.  It looks like they are trying to bring someone else's headache here  ::)

Certainly looks that way. I wonder if the vessel being considered now has a relationship to Jax or if it just happens to be a random rust bucket that another city is just trying to get rid of?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 09:00:37 AM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude

Don’t blame him, it’s the Khan and the Jaguars fault.

I doubt he blames Khan and the Jaguars so much as thinks the city has its priorities out of order.

Well, now that you mention it, we have this...

Sounds like the city was noncommital on the space as well, according to the T-U.

Quote
The main factors any group seeking a museum ship has to consider are having money to maintain the vessel and a stable, secure place where it can be moored.

The Adams was intended to be moved to an area along the Shipyards on the Northbank and was shown in conceptual plans for the area’s redevelopment that Jaguars owner Shad Khan presented to city officials in March.

But an unsigned development agreement between the city and the ship society that was circulated to City Council members in June said the ship could be required to move “without cause” — for any reason — on seven months’ notice from the city.

...so maybe Khan's plans did make the Navy concerned that the ship might be returned to them, which the Navy cited in one of the posted articles was a common problem.

I don't read the Times-Union, but do they even cover stuff like this short of just reprinting press releases?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on February 13, 2019, 09:49:04 AM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude
Hell of a first post.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Rynjny on February 13, 2019, 10:46:58 AM
Kerry  u r such a prick u whine about everything on every post get a life dude
Hell of a first post.

He's not wrong tho..
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2019, 11:28:55 AM
Please no personal attacks on fellow forum members. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 11:48:56 AM
Please no personal attacks on fellow forum members. Thanks.

While not good form, my skin is a lot thicker than that and I get it that some people get defensive about the city they call home being criticized.  It is actually a good sign, but the anger is just misdirected.  Don't get mad a me for pointing out mediocrity and substandard performance, get mad at the people delivering mediocrity and substandard performance.

I would have loved for the Adams to be docked downtown.  I think it would have been a great addition to the City, but the incompetence, or worse yet - indifference, at City Hall strikes again.  In the same Times-Union article posted previously a representative from Bay City, MI was quoted in the story.  At the same time Jax was trying to get the Adams they were trying to get the USS Edson (Adams sister ship).  Some how the small city of Bay City pulled it off because it is docked there today as part of their Naval Museum.  Jax has the 3rd largest naval population in the US.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BHver5vD17o/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snufflee on February 13, 2019, 12:51:45 PM
I can't see where Jacksonville has the third largest US Navy population in the US.

It is certainly smaller than Hampton Roads, San Diego, and Honolulu, i would imagine based on command distribution it is smaller than Pensacola too. If I were to add in the Sea Bees Ventura California with Point Mugu and the Sea Bee base in Port Hueneme probably exceeds Jacksonville.

The truth is unlike San Diego and Norfolk, Jacksonville doesn't offer the ability to homestead. No Carrier, no Air Wing, no command support for Amphibious Ready Groups are in Jacksonville, outside the P-3/P-8 community Jacksonville offers no career ladder for today's sailor.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Tacachale on February 13, 2019, 12:59:01 PM
I can't see where Jacksonville has the third largest US Navy population in the US.

It is certainly smaller than Hampton Roads, San Diego, and Honolulu, i would imagine based on command distribution it is smaller than Pensacola too. If I were to add in the Sea Bees Ventura California with Point Mugu and the Sea Bee base in Port Hueneme probably exceeds Jacksonville.

The truth is unlike San Diego and Norfolk, Jacksonville doesn't offer the ability to homestead. No Carrier, no Air Wing, no command support for Amphibious Ready Groups are in Jacksonville, outside the P-3/P-8 community Jacksonville offers no career ladder for today's sailor.

The greater Jax area has the third largest military presence after Hampton Roads, VA and San Diego when including Mayport as well as NAS Jax and Kings Bay. However, the naval presence has little to do with whether a ship is displayed here, or should be.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 01:03:06 PM
I can't see where Jacksonville has the third largest US Navy population in the US.

It is certainly smaller than Hampton Roads, San Diego, and Honolulu, i would imagine based on command distribution it is smaller than Pensacola too. If I were to add in the Sea Bees Ventura California with Point Mugu and the Sea Bee base in Port Hueneme probably exceeds Jacksonville.

The truth is unlike San Diego and Norfolk, Jacksonville doesn't offer the ability to homestead. No Carrier, no Air Wing, no command support for Amphibious Ready Groups are in Jacksonville, outside the P-3/P-8 community Jacksonville offers no career ladder for today's sailor.

My mistake - I read it wrong.  It said Florida is the 3rd largest Navy state - whatever that means.  Good point about Jax not being a true home for Navy personnel.  While looking for a house over the last few months I was surprised how many practically brand new homes were for sale by Navy personnel.  I can only assume they stay for a few years and then are gone.

https://residentnews.net/2019/02/01/navy-changes-course-on-plan-for-uss-adams-in-jacksonville/

Quote
“Jacksonville is a Navy town, and Florida is the third largest Navy state in the country,” Bean said. “We have worked with developers of the Shipyards, they are excited about it – we are all excited about it.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on February 13, 2019, 01:37:28 PM
To Kerry's point, and to Dan Bean's credit, this was always a grass roots only initiative.  The city never stepped in, kept changing the rules, and bogged down the process with bureaucracy.  Also, local industry, and the local good old boy power structure never got behind it.  The cost would have been a rounding error for CSX, Fidelity National, EverBank, and all the rest.  Not to mention Khan.  What Dan did should be applauded.  And the city should be embarrassed.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
To Kerry's point, and to Dan Bean's credit, this was always a grass roots only initiative.  The city never stepped in, kept changing the rules, and bogged down the process with bureaucracy.  Also, local industry, and the local good old boy power structure never got behind it.  The cost would have been a rounding error for CSX, Fidelity National, EverBank, and all the rest.  Not to mention Khan.  What Dan did should be applauded.  And the city should be embarrassed.

I'm glad you brought up the total lack of corporate support.  I've lived in a lot of places and I have never seen a corporate base so removed from the community as the one here in Jax is.  Outside of Florida Blue I am hard pressed to find any overly generous corporations in Jax.  In many cities companies are falling over each other to get their name into the public domain and help build up their community - if for no other reason than they compete with other companies in the region for employees.

I don't know if companies aren't interested or they just aren't being asked.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on February 13, 2019, 02:38:11 PM
To Kerry's point, and to Dan Bean's credit, this was always a grass roots only initiative.  The city never stepped in, kept changing the rules, and bogged down the process with bureaucracy.  Also, local industry, and the local good old boy power structure never got behind it.  The cost would have been a rounding error for CSX, Fidelity National, EverBank, and all the rest.  Not to mention Khan.  What Dan did should be applauded.  And the city should be embarrassed.

I'm glad you brought up the total lack of corporate support.  I've lived in a lot of places and I have never seen a corporate base so removed from the community as the one here in Jax is.  Outside of Florida Blue I am hard pressed to find any overly generous corporations in Jax.  In many cities companies are falling over each other to get their name into the public domain and help build up their community - if for no other reason than they compete with other companies in the region for employees.

I don't know if companies aren't interested or they just aren't being asked.


I will say that more recently, Vystar seems to be stepping up to the plate. Between moving downtown, buying a name on the Arena, and sponsoring events like the Lantern Parade, they're certainly doing better than most.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on February 13, 2019, 03:02:04 PM
All Dan Bean ever needed was 2 or 3 million bucks. A pittance in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: vicupstate on February 13, 2019, 03:36:24 PM
To Kerry's point, and to Dan Bean's credit, this was always a grass roots only initiative.  The city never stepped in, kept changing the rules, and bogged down the process with bureaucracy.  Also, local industry, and the local good old boy power structure never got behind it.  The cost would have been a rounding error for CSX, Fidelity National, EverBank, and all the rest.  Not to mention Khan.  What Dan did should be applauded.  And the city should be embarrassed.

As far as the city goes, this sounds like passive-aggressive behavior on their part to kill it without looking like the bad guy by just saying 'No'.   
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on February 13, 2019, 03:39:33 PM
I could care less about getting an old, worn out ship.  I'd much rather have a real destination attraction.  Just think about it.  If you lived up in the Midwest and was thinking of travelling south, what would you choose?  An outdated old rust bucket, or Disney World, Epcot, Universal, etc.  We are just too close to the Orlando area to squander money on a ship.  How about a Six Flags type attraction, a spruced-up beach, or a nice aquarium?  Botanical gardens?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 04:54:34 PM
We can't 'out Orlando' Orlando.  The problem with Jax is we try to hit a grand slam with every at-bat when we really just need to focus on getting on base - be it a hit, walk, or being hit by a wild pitch.  Jax needs momentum to get things rolling and that is something City leadership doesn't want to focus on.  We want to go to the World Series without ever winning a game. In my opinion it is because each Mayor only has 4 years to make a splash.  We aren't going to conceive, plan, fund, and build an aquarium or anything else in a 4 year time period.  If I had one wish for Jax it would be to cut the number of Council Seats in half and move to a City Manager government.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: vicupstate on February 13, 2019, 05:52:49 PM
If I had one wish for Jax it would be to cut the number of Council Seats in half and move to a City Manager government.

What good would cutting the council seats do?
   
A City Manager only does what the Mayor and Council tell him or her to do.

Take the term limits off the Mayor's office, make it non-partisan and that would be a big step in the right direction. Ranked Choice Voting would be great also, but that is pretty progressive for a city like JAX.     
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 13, 2019, 07:53:11 PM
I don't want to stray into that topic. :)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on February 13, 2019, 08:16:05 PM
I don't want to be Orlando either.  What I want is something for the area folks to be proud of, and keep us home.  Nice to show off to visitors too.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 14, 2019, 08:06:16 AM
I don't want to be Orlando either.  What I want is something for the area folks to be proud of, and keep us home.  Nice to show off to visitors too.

I can certainly appreciate that desire.  Jax is lacking a signature show piece.  Go to any model center in a new subdivision around Jax and look at the marketing photos they have on the walls.  They don't show sprawling subdivisions and strip shopping centers (which is 99.9% of Jax) - they show The Landing, Friendship Fountain, and the Town Center - even if their subdivision is 25 miles from those things.  Those are our best show pieces - a has-been shopping center, a broken fountain, and a fake town center.

We have an amazing river flowing through downtown and we do practically nothing with it because we are waiting on the silver bullet project - Lot J, Shipyards, The District, a new convention center, or whatever the next great idea was.  Hell, it is been nearly 30 years and we are still waiting for the intangibles to come to fruition for landing an NFL expansion team.

The Adam's would have been the first significant publicly accessible improvement to the Jax waterfront in over 30 years and the City took a pass on it.  Go figure.  Hell's bells - we even built our cruise terminal out in the middle of nowhere instead of near downtown and I don't want to hear any nonsense about downtown being to far from the ocean - the Tampa cruise terminal is 35 miles from open water, Mobile is 30 miles, and New Orleans is well over 100 miles.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2019, 08:42:06 AM
The cruise terminal situation deals more with modern ships not being able to get under the Mathews and Hart Bridges. Neither Mobile or New Orleans have that issue and the Sunshine Skyway's air draft clearance is 180', restricting Tampa's future.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 14, 2019, 09:07:25 AM
A cruise ship doesn't have to go all the way to downtown although it would be nice if it could.  American Cruise Lines does dock downtown but they have a much smaller vessel.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on February 14, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
I don't want to be Orlando either.  What I want is something for the area folks to be proud of, and keep us home.  Nice to show off to visitors too.


That's what the Adams would have been. To a lot of folks, it's not an old rust bucket, but I won't get into history and service.  The point is it shouldn't be either/or downtown.  It should be this/AND that. 


Kerry once again is 100% right. Just get on base.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2019, 09:19:59 AM
A cruise ship doesn't have to go all the way to downtown although it would be nice if it could.  American Cruise Lines does dock downtown but they have a much smaller vessel.

^I was just providing a little historical background perspective to that particular observation.  I don't recall anyone seriously claiming DT was too far from the ocean and that's how it ended up not being closer to downtown. Years ago, the old Ford plant off Talleyrand was considered because that was as far as you could get a large cruise ship close to the core. As ships have grown, the feeling is that the current terminal is also restricted in long term growth due to the Dames Point Bridge. This was a major reason Jaxport tried moving it to Mayport.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/a1/91/a4a191d463a5ed53a6355079db5e82e4.jpg)

With that said, there's nothing stopping smaller vessels from docking downtown, if that's the market niche they want to pursue.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 14, 2019, 09:29:18 AM
Downtown or Mayport - it is just another example of local leadership asleep at the wheel.  4,000 people a week coming to Jax from all over the country and we do nothing to cater to them and their dollars.  We don't offer a single shore excursion for them to partake in while they are here - not a single one.  Last I looked Tampa had something like 20 offered that a tourist could book through the criuse ship or a travel agent.

I've watched 300 high networth senior citizens get off the American Cruise Line ship downtown and then wonder aimlessly around looking for something to do.  Again, not a single shore excursion for them to partake in.  If I had a boat I would sure as heck offer some kind of tour for $50 or $60 per person.

Btw - the American Cruise is between $3500 and $6000 per person - so you know the people aboard have money to spend.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2019, 09:37:42 AM
American Cruise Line has a boat. Why are they letting their citizens wonder around like zombies? Seems like a built in opportunity for more income.

With that said, I actually agree with you in regards to us not maximizing our downtown or city's best assets overall. We'd be a lot farther if we stopped continuously waiting for a sugar daddy to ride in on a big white heavily subsidized horse to save the day.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on February 14, 2019, 10:33:33 AM
Viator is the best worldwide tour company that I know of.  Local tours. Local hosts.  I've used them in a bunch of different countries.  Here's what they off for cruise ship visitors.

https://www.viator.com/Jacksonville/d4373-ttd
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on February 14, 2019, 12:04:47 PM
American Cruise Line has a boat. Why are they letting their citizens wonder around like zombies?

Apparently Viator offers a zombie walk experience!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: RiversideRambler on February 14, 2019, 12:25:11 PM
Viator is the best worldwide tour company that I know of.  Local tours. Local hosts.  I've used them in a bunch of different countries.  Here's what they off for cruise ship visitors.

https://www.viator.com/Jacksonville/d4373-ttd

A wacky adventure walk game and a one way trip to the airport  ::)
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on February 14, 2019, 01:17:12 PM
For even more fun they could go to Riverside Park and watch a duck fight.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: downtownbrown on February 14, 2019, 02:09:00 PM
Right, so if we had the Adams....

And the Berkman 2 theme park extravaganza....

And someplace to eat at the Landing....

And a famous rib joint in the Elbow....
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2019, 03:01:05 PM
Definitely recommend Jenkins. That's where Obama planned a visit before canceling a campaign trip to Jax because of a death in the family.We have longtime rib joints. They just aren't marketed by to certain demographic in the way that long time local establishments are promoted in some other peer communities.  Outside of a revamped Landing, the Adams, Berman 2 theme park would struggle to survive without more around that side of downtown to support them.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Todd_Parker on February 14, 2019, 03:43:01 PM


...and a one way trip to the airport  ::)

for $65!
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 14, 2019, 04:54:37 PM
Right, so if we had the Adams....

And the Berkman 2 theme park extravaganza....

And someplace to eat at the Landing....

And a famous rib joint in the Elbow....

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.  Even Dorothy stopped along the way to Oz to collect the support staff she needed to be successful at the end.  Jax seems to be fixated on the top-down approach instead of bottom up.  Make Jax a great place via little pieces and the big pieces will fall into place.  We won't need to give Khan millions for Lot J, he'll just build it on his own.  Same with The Distirct and all the other silver bullet projects.  The Adams should have been, and could have been, a part of something which was greater than the sum of its parts.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2019, 05:35:01 PM
I wouldn't lose sleep on the Adams. Start working with the authentic assets we already have and systematically infill and expand incrementally from there.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Tacachale on February 14, 2019, 05:51:35 PM
I wouldn't lose sleep on the Adams. Start working with the authentic assets we already have and systematically infill and expand incrementally from there.
+1
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 15, 2019, 08:42:02 AM
Ummm, the Adams was in-fill and incremental expansion.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 15, 2019, 10:08:44 AM
No not isolated at the Shipyards it wasn't. Things also need to make financial sense. USS Adams isn't representative of an attraction that can financially sustain itself on its own in a field next to a jail and coffee roasting factory. It's the type of attraction that needs to be placed in an area where it can benefit from an existing traffic flow. You can't just place stuff simply for the sake of having it. There needs to be some logic to the revitalization madness. What's the overall plan and how does each little investment play a role in making that plan become reality. I'm pretty convinced at this point that we don't really have a clue.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on February 15, 2019, 10:15:24 AM
Having a ship in the middle of nothing won't achieve anything worthwhile. What it WOULD achieve is very low visitor numbers (once the novelty wore off), leading to people complaining about wasted money and using it as an example/excuse for why we shouldn't do anything to revitalize downtown if it is going to cost anything.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 15, 2019, 12:25:03 PM
I don't pretend to know the visitor volumes they projected but if you don't think naval vessels aren't a destination attraction you haven't looked very deep into the subject, nor probably even visited one.  I started to write a list of all of them and their relative location within their host city but it started getting long, so here is a link with all of them listed and you can use GoogleEarth to see the actual location.  I think you will find with a few exceptions, most are in a far more remote location relative to the local town center than the Shipyards is to downtown Jax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_museum_ships_of_the_United_States_military
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 15, 2019, 12:52:12 PM
I've actually visited quite a few. You have to dig way more deeper than wikipedia to determine viability. How many of them benefit from having other attractions nearby? How many of them are located in vibrant districts? How many of them pay for themselves? How many of them struggle to stay afloat (at least one since some other city wants to give their's to us)?

USS Yorktown at Patriot's Point in Charleston was one I enjoyed on a tour about 10 years ago. This is what Patriot's Point has had to deal with, despite being in a popular tourism destination:

Quote
Allentown, Pa. Gainesville, Fla. Cincinnati, Ohio. Check the zip codes at the USS Yorktown's visitor logbook, and you'll find more out-of-state numbers than 294-anythings.

Jim and Pat Sanders spent a recent Wednesday touring the ship, a focal point of their stop in Charleston during a motorcycle tour from their home in Temple, Texas.

"When we got in that submarine, I said, 'Wow!'" exclaims Jim. "I was too young to be a part of this history, but to see what people sacrificed — what my father and grandfather experienced — I think that's kind of neat."

The submarine is the USS Clamagore, a World War II-era boat that is one of the only surviving diesel subs of its type on display to the public. But from the outside, it looks like it's barely hanging on. Alongside the Yorktown since 1981, the Clamagore exterior has been worn by rust into an unsightly, mangled mess.

Adjacent to the sub, the aircraft carrier rests in 26 feet of mud, a place it has occupied since 1975. Deep in its hull, millions of gallons of water are rusting its bowels from the inside out.

After serving our nation in World War II and Vietnam, the ship retired to Charleston Harbor as the focal point of the Patriots Point Naval and Maritime Museum. It's a source of pride, a beacon of freedom, and, now, an overwhelming reminder of our state's economic woes.

https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/charleston/patriots-point-struggles-to-emerge-from-stormy-seas/Content?oid=2463938

Quote
The Patriots Point Naval & Maritime Museum was among a number of military ship museums created across the nation in the 1970s, with little thought about the multi-million dollar repair bills to come. If a boat is a hole in the water into which money is poured, as the saying goes, a steel warship makes for a very big hole.

In September, following Patriots Point’s failure to repay $8.2 million to the state in 2015 when a ship-repair loan came due, auditors warned that it was facing “substantial doubt about its ability to continue as a going concern.” To survive, the authority managing the museum and property in Mount Pleasant is hanging its future on a plan to lease a swath of the state-owned waterfront land to Charleston developer Mike Bennett’s Patriots Annex LLC.[/img]

Full article: https://www.postandcourier.com/news/patriots-point-s-future-hangs-upon-huge-waterfront-land-development/article_e8d5961a-6b05-11e7-8744-177fe73ff534.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 15, 2019, 12:58:03 PM
^Update: There's a proposal to turn the USS Clamagore from a floating museum in Charleston into an artificial reef off the coast of Florida. Evidently Patriot's Point couldn't afford the $250k a year to maintain it or the $6 million that was needed in repairs.

https://www.postandcourier.com/business/new-target-date-set-for-hauling-off-submarine-clamagore-to/article_f9cd6434-223e-11e8-bdc9-afe40de1fcee.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on February 15, 2019, 02:20:15 PM
I don't pretend to know the visitor volumes they projected but if you don't think naval vessels aren't a destination attraction you haven't looked very deep into the subject, nor probably even visited one.  I started to write a list of all of them and their relative location within their host city but it started getting long, so here is a link with all of them listed and you can use GoogleEarth to see the actual location.  I think you will find with a few exceptions, most are in a far more remote location relative to the local town center than the Shipyards is to downtown Jax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_museum_ships_of_the_United_States_military

My point, really, was that a ship sitting by itself with nothing of note around it isn't going to be much of a draw. Downtown Jax is a bit of a ghost town. Get that sorted first and things like ships will make more sense.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on February 15, 2019, 04:20:48 PM
I guess the City made the right choice then.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on February 15, 2019, 04:54:37 PM
I guess the City made the right choice then.

I think so.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on February 15, 2019, 05:11:33 PM
Or the Navy did. The city never asked for it.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on June 28, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
The group has found another ship.

The USS Orleck.

It's in Louisiana now, but would be towed to Jax.

They also want to build a Veterans Park adjacent to Berkman II.

Lori Boyer will be meeting with them in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Tacachale on June 28, 2019, 07:39:17 PM
The group has found another ship.

The USS Orleck.

It's in Louisiana now, but would be towed to Jax.

They also want to build a Veterans Park adjacent to Berkman II.

Lori Boyer will be meeting with them in the coming weeks.

This Orleck?

https://www.visitlakecharles.org/listing/uss-orleck-naval-museum/149150/
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on June 28, 2019, 07:58:37 PM
I haven't seen any news on the Orleck moving or coming to Jax; any news or articles out there to support this?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on June 28, 2019, 08:16:27 PM
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/exclusive-navy-vets-find-new-warship-for-proposed-jacksonville-museum-after-losing-uss-adams/962095783

Was the USS Orleck ever stationed in Jax?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: MusicMan on June 29, 2019, 04:35:26 PM
Do any Liberty Ships actually remain, you know, like the ones they built at The Shipyards?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on June 29, 2019, 05:07:09 PM
There are four. Three are museums (two in the US) and the 4th is used as a fish cannery ship.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on June 29, 2019, 11:04:03 PM
Do any Liberty Ships actually remain, you know, like the ones they built at The Shipyards?

One of the four that remains was actually built at the shipyards.  The US government transferred it to Greece in 2009 to be a museum ship.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on June 30, 2019, 05:26:34 AM
This seems like a really bad and (ultimately) expensive idea.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on June 30, 2019, 10:03:07 AM
Working on a background story on this ship now. Here's an interesting nugget from Lake Charles a year or two ago:

Quote
It has been noted by the President of the USS Orleck Naval Museum Board, Mark Boudreaux that a lot of people are no longer interested in going to museums, even less so to museum ships. It’s sad that there isn’t more interest. I’m not sure, but I think it’s just a sign of the times; a sign of today’s culture.

In the five years since arriving at Lake Charles, the ship has hosted about 100,000 visitors. But that alone is not enough income to keep up repairs and insurance.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/uss-orleck-naval-museum-board-time-running-salvage-yard-ships-future.html
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on June 30, 2019, 01:37:47 PM
^Population and tourism differences for the two markets aside, that's 20k per year.

Estimates for the USS Adams were up to ten times higher - 200k a year.

Yikes.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: blizz01 on June 30, 2019, 04:16:58 PM
I think a lot of it is really the appeal of the boat. Not to diminish the service but these smaller vessels seem to lack wow factor.  The Yorktown (carrier) in Charleston, the Alabama (carrier) in Mobile, or even the North Carolina (battleship) in Wilmington all have more "substance" and significance - and are supported with seemingly more infrastructure / entertainment.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on June 30, 2019, 06:14:30 PM
I think a combination of appeal of the boat, too many similar attractions across the country and the vibrancy of the surrounding district all play a role. Neither Jax, Orange or Lake Charles have downtowns that are considered to be tourism draws. On the other hand, Charleston does and Patriot's Point (The Yorktown) is popular. Nevertheless, it still has a financial problem. The bigger the boat, the larger the maintenance expense.

Quote
A Charleston-based engineering company estimates it will take about $40.5 million to repair parts of the USS Yorktown’s decaying steel hull.

The aircraft carrier, which has been sitting in the Charleston Harbor’s salt water for more than 40 years, has lost an estimated 5% of its steel thickness as a whole, according to Jonathan Sigman, a senior project manager with Collins Engineers Inc. The company was paid about $500,000 to spend eight months analyzing the interior and exterior structure of the warship at Patriots Point.

Over time, the salt water has corroded the steel, causing rust and flooding in parts of the lower decks. The hull’s average section loss — or loss of thickness as determined by ultrasonic testing — is about 3.7%, which Sigman considers to be low for the age of the Yorktown.

Quote
Midway through the fiscal year, on Dec. 31, Patriots Point had nearly $5.7 million in cash and cash equivalents, according to Lin Bennett, chair of the development authority’s Finance and Personnel Committee. Cash in the capital reserve account totaled slightly less than $5 million at that time.

She said cash from operating activities and interest income increased about $692,000 during the first half of fiscal 2014, which ran from July through December. Total operating revenue during that period was $5.1 million, and expenditures totaled $4.9 million. The maritime museum’s income before depreciation and interest was roughly $208,000.

Patriots Point’s four main revenue streams — admissions, gift shop sales, overnight camping and parking — were all up during the first half of the fiscal year when compared to the same time period in 2013.

Admission revenue totaled $2.3 million, an increase of $262,000; gift shop revenue was up $28,000, to $859,000. Revenue from overnight camping totaled about $513,000, a $73,000 increase from the previous year; and parking revenue went up nearly $6,000, to $303,985, according to Bennett.

Approximately 130,000 people paid to enter Patriots Point between July and December, which is up 5,600 from the same time period in 2013. The number of campers climbed 920 to 6,702 in 2014.

“Our goal for the year is to be up by 10,000 over last year,” Burdette said of paid attendance. Patriots Point’s goal is to have 300,000 paid visitors by the end of 2018.

https://scbiznews.com/news/agriculture/50193/


Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on July 01, 2019, 08:44:01 AM
If Jax is going to do this we need to do it right.  The USS Orleck is at best a 3rd or 4th 'other ship' at a museum, not the main attraction.  If we can't get a carrier or battleship then it isn't worth it.  The USS Orleck would be more at home in St. Augustine or Fernandina.  It would look tiny in downtown Jax.

One of the main issues with Patriots Point is its location across the river from Charleston.  A lot of people who visit Charleston don't have a car so getting there is a challenge, and the people who do have a car don't want to give up their parking space once they have it.  It is accessible by water taxi but you have to pay for that by the person on top of admission costs which rules out most families.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on July 01, 2019, 09:47:16 AM
Uber or Lyft?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 01, 2019, 11:05:54 AM
Good luck getting a carrier or battleship downtown, with the vertical clearance issues - both above and below the waterline.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on July 02, 2019, 08:48:07 AM
Good luck getting a carrier or battleship downtown, with the vertical clearance issues - both above and below the waterline.

Good point.  A battleship is a little over 200' tall so Mathew's Bridge rules it out downtown.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 02, 2019, 12:11:45 PM
Good luck getting a carrier or battleship downtown, with the vertical clearance issues - both above and below the waterline.

Good point.  A battleship is a little over 200' tall so Mathew's Bridge rules it out downtown.

And, with 175' clearance, nothing west of the Dames Point Bridge is possible.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: KenFSU on July 02, 2019, 02:30:48 PM
Town Center?

 :o
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on July 03, 2019, 06:46:31 AM
Of course, it could always be partially dismantled and then reassembled on-site.  The conning tower could be partially removed and placed on the deck and towed into place.  It isn't like it actually has to be functional again.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on July 03, 2019, 08:09:47 AM
Just came across this story today.  It appears maintenance costs is a common problem.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/naval-warships-faced-with-steep-maintenance-costs-fight-to-survive/ar-AADL0AV
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Peter Griffin on July 03, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
I know I'm like 13 pages into this thread, but I just don't see any appeal for this type of thing to be implemented in DT Jax. I can't see it drawing substantial crowds unless it had the type of infrastructure that the Charleston ship has, which isn't really possible here given the footprint near the stadium.

Plus, would something like this bring in any tourists or suburbanites? I don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on July 03, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
I agree that the ship downtown is not a good idea.  It may bring a few people downtown to see it, but what type of visitor does it bring?  We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.  It's only a short distance to drive on to Orlando and find some really popular sights and things to do.  We need places that appeal to the locals.  How is a maintenance-heavy rust bucket solve that?  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2019, 10:18:33 AM

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: itsfantastic1 on July 03, 2019, 10:40:51 AM

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?

Yes
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on July 03, 2019, 10:42:57 AM
We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.

Downtown is a ghost town. At this point, we need to focus on the basic infrastructure needs (upgrading parks, two-waying streets, lighting streets at night, better integrating existing ground floor retail/dining with the public realm) and simply stop self sabotaging a market that would naturally result in economic opportunity coming to downtown.

As for attractions, we're going in reverse with that right now. Our best short term and likely easiest opportunity is taking advantage of the Landing and repurposing it into a mix of uses that can complement and blend with the private projects either already in the works or planned right around the site. Unfortunately, we're blowing it big time demolishing the building with no vetted idea of what to do with the space afterward. So other than being in a time where social media and puff press releases come out on a regular basis, all we're getting is more of the same failed strategies that didn't work in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on July 03, 2019, 10:44:33 AM

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?

Yes

Funny thing is opening areas to basic things like fishing actually makes some sense for naturally activating use and attracting people.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 03, 2019, 10:51:48 AM

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?

https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20131106/NEWS/801243547
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Kerry on July 03, 2019, 10:52:38 AM
I agree that the ship downtown is not a good idea.  It may bring a few people downtown to see it, but what type of visitor does it bring?  We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.  It's only a short distance to drive on to Orlando and find some really popular sights and things to do.  We need places that appeal to the locals.  How is a maintenance-heavy rust bucket solve that?  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

Largest Ball of Twine is already taken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZe_a2GO1U
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on July 03, 2019, 11:14:05 AM

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?
The hairstyle.  If that doesn't work, how about a tattoo or piercing showdown? A loudest muffler on pickup contest?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on July 03, 2019, 11:30:17 AM
We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.

Downtown is a ghost town. At this point, we need to focus on the basic infrastructure needs (upgrading parks, two-waying streets, lighting streets at night, better integrating existing ground floor retail/dining with the public realm) and simply stop self sabotaging a market that would naturally result in economic opportunity coming to downtown.

As for attractions, we're going in reverse with that right now. Our best short term and likely easiest opportunity is taking advantage of the Landing and repurposing it into a mix of uses that can complement and blend with the private projects either already in the works or planned right around the site. Unfortunately, we're blowing it big time demolishing the building with no vetted idea of what to do with the space afterward. So other than being in a time where social media and puff press releases come out on a regular basis, all we're getting is more of the same failed strategies that didn't work in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.
I agree lake.  Before that will work we need to have a person in City Hall who is responsible for the morale and spirit of this city.  We have an inferiority complex like few others.  I remember just after the city consolidated, the came out with a very short campaign that seemed to work, but was abandoned.  Part of it was the "Bold New City" stuff, and another was simple bumper stickers that had Jacksunville with a sun behind the Jacksunville.  There were thousands on vehicles across the area.  We need to feel proud of our city.  Instead of squandering millions on gun shot tracers, demolishing buildings, and hiring a never ending stream of paid consultants, spend some on promoting our potentially great city.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on July 03, 2019, 11:58:35 AM
Steinhatchee already has a mullet tossing competition.  Should we do our next city council trip there?
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on July 03, 2019, 12:46:32 PM
Steinhatchee already has a mullet tossing competition.  Should we do our next city council trip there?
Let our council catch those tossed mullets.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: blizz01 on July 03, 2019, 01:26:35 PM
I only remember WAPE stickers......everywhere.
Title: Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Snaketoz on July 03, 2019, 01:38:41 PM
I only remember WAPE stickers......everywhere.
"This is the mighty 690, WAPE, the most powerful station in the nation".