The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Urban Neighborhoods => Riverside/Avondale => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on May 06, 2014, 05:40:02 AM

Title: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on May 06, 2014, 05:40:02 AM
Lost Jacksonville: The Row

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3219943633_694sfZ6-M.jpg)

The Garden District in New Orleans has St. Charles Avenue, Monument Avenue graces Richmond's Fan District, and 3rd Street anchors Old Louisville.  Today, Metro Jacksonville takes a step back in time to share the story of a similar residential district that no longer exists: The Row.


Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-lost-jacksonville-the-row
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Noone on May 06, 2014, 06:13:40 AM
Nice presentation of once was and now is.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 12:01:02 PM
Jacksonville had so much potential until the ignorant bible thunpers ruined our once great city.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: carpnter on May 06, 2014, 12:19:57 PM
Jacksonville had so much potential until the ignorant bible thunpers ruined our once great city.

Bible Thumpers appear to have done little to contribute to the demise of this area, but why let facts get in the way of an attack on religious people.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: simms3 on May 06, 2014, 12:23:12 PM
^^^Haha

I used to have a book around my parents' house that was about the Cummers and detailed the Row with a ton of pics.  I have tried to located it since first reading it a long time ago and just can't find it; worried it got tossed somehow.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 12:39:02 PM
Jacksonville had so much potential until the ignorant bible thunpers ruined our once great city.

Bible Thumpers appear to have done little to contribute to the demise of this area, but why let facts get in the way of an attack on religious people.

The bible thumpers are the ones who made Jacksonville a very uncomfortable place for the movie studios and once LA started, they left us narrow minded people to the swamps.

They also brought about the end of the once glorious red light district.  They even tore up the very roads and building foundations as infill to shore up the floodplane along the St Johns River.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: simms3 on May 06, 2014, 12:56:32 PM
^^^A little bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?  I think folks in Jax like to think Hollywood was going to stick around, but ask for a history of Hollywood from someone in Hollywood and Jax doesn't even come up.  Every city *had* a red light district.  Now it's not as much of a thing, anywhere.  Jax is not unique in that regard.

Jax has a lot of "Bible thumpers", definitely more than anywhere else I've ever been in my life, I think, however, their real destruction of the city didn't come until the era of "urban renewal".  Jax simply fell victim to its own geography and technological advances post-1920s.  Why on earth would Hollywood have stuck around?  Why on earth would northerners not go a little bit further south for a significantly warmer experience?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 01:13:48 PM
People often think that cities just become the way they are because they were meant to be that way.

This is not so.  There were many reasons why New York Jews chose Jacksonville to film movies during the winter. They could have filmed anywhere there was a temperment climate but why was Jacksonville chosen? 

California offered more stable weather and moutain and desert and ocean backdrops. 

While many people in LA hated movie people and never even received top billing, they did find tolerance just outside of what was then the city in a dusty ranch area called Hollywood and Beverly Hills.

Jacksonville hated movie people.  Upptiy blacks filming out in Arlington. Jews who seemed too, well, add every early 20th century Jewish sterotype.  They made it clear that the lifestyles of movie people were not welcomed in these parts. 

Perhaps if Jacksonville encouraged the studios instead of being either indifferent or outright rude to them, maybe our movie studios could have gone from early silent films to major motion pictures during the 1920s & 30s.

As for south Florida, please honey, in 1916 hardly anybody went to south Florida.  Miami was mostly a sandy swamp and even the Atlantic ridge was not much of anything. Palm Beach was still just being planted, it would not take on  it's true glory until the 1920s and even then it was just a few hotels and some new winter cottages.  Key West was going from it's 19th century glory as a wealthy wrecking town into a slow paced cigar rolling backwater. Key West would not really become a big artist and writers' haven until the late 1920s and 30s.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 01:17:05 PM
Let's face it pumpkins, Jacksonville has always and still is the Sodom and Gamorrah along the St Johns even though we like to think of ourselfs as such a Christian city.

Nothing has changed in Sin City Jax even with the holy rollers trying to force out all creativity and free thought and expression.

Instead of capitalizing on the sucessful free thinkers, we chase them off.  What we were/are left with is mostly the bottom of the barrel.  Saddom and Gamorrah still lives on but just on a more drab level.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 02:06:24 PM
Birth of a Nation, often referenced but hardly anybody has ever actually watched it.

http://youtu.be/iEznh2JZvrI
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 02:12:54 PM
Has anybody had to opportunity to stay at that bed and breakfast on Riverside?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Tacachale on May 06, 2014, 02:14:53 PM
People often think that cities just become the way they are because they were meant to be that way.

This is not so.  There were many reasons why New York Jews chose Jacksonville to film movies during the winter. They could have filmed anywhere there was a temperment climate but why was Jacksonville chosen? 

California offered more stable weather and moutain and desert and ocean backdrops. 

While many people in LA hated movie people and never even received top billing, they did find tolerance just outside of what was then the city in a dusty ranch area called Hollywood and Beverly Hills.

Jacksonville hated movie people.  Upptiy blacks filming out in Arlington. Jews who seemed too, well, add every early 20th century Jewish sterotype.  They made it clear that the lifestyles of movie people were not welcomed in these parts. 

Perhaps if Jacksonville encouraged the studios instead of being either indifferent or outright rude to them, maybe our movie studios could have gone from early silent films to major motion pictures during the 1920s & 30s.

As for south Florida, please honey, in 1916 hardly anybody went to south Florida.  Miami was mostly a sandy swamp and even the Atlantic ridge was not much of anything. Palm Beach was still just being planted, it would not take on  it's true glory until the 1920s and even then it was just a few hotels and some new winter cottages.  Key West was going from it's 19th century glory as a wealthy wrecking town into a slow paced cigar rolling backwater. Key West would not really become a big artist and writers' haven until the late 1920s and 30s.

As with a lot of your posts, there are kernels of truth here, but you're overgeneralizing to the point that your major claims are largely wrong.

In the early 20th century the main center of the film industry was still in New York. Naturally, this made winter filming unpleasant. New York studios did indeed set up shop in various areas with temperate climates, including not only Jacksonville but Arizona, Cuba, and (eventually) California. Jacksonville had a number of things that made it stand out (eg, an initially welcoming business climate and many different environments for on-location shooting) but the real reason it became the winter film capital was because it was the closest to New York.

There were also a number of reasons the film industry declined in Jacksonville in the late teens. It is true that one of them was backlash from traditionalist folks who didn't like what the industry represented - or at least who resented film's growing political influence. However, there was also a progressive fashion that actively supported the industry. The election of John W. Martin over film supporter JET Bowden came out of this tension. However, the most substantial factor in the decline of Jacksonville's winter film industry was the rise of Hollywood as a feasible location for both winter and summer shooting. This led to the decline of the New York studios, and in turn there was less and less demand for winter filming in Jacksonville.

So, it's not really true that "Jacksonville hated movie people". Some elements surely hated "movie people" but there were others who really liked "movie people", but who faced an uphill battle against factors they largely couldn't influence.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Tacachale on May 06, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
^Yes, that is true, and Birth of a Nation was the clincher for establishing Hollywood as the film capital by becoming the first Hollywood blockbuster in 1915.

Additionally, a lot of the negative turns in the political climate during the period were national and regional trends, certainly not confined to Jacksonville. The period wasn't called the nadir of American race relations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relations) because of one city being dismissive of the film industry.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: simms3 on May 06, 2014, 02:33:18 PM
Let's face it pumpkins

Please don't ever call me that again, or any other respectable adult/human being.

Also, please listen to Stephen and Tacachale educate you on facts.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: cracklow on May 06, 2014, 02:51:59 PM
So what were the boundaries of said row? Was a literal row, only on Riverside Ave, or were there similar structures in surrounding streets that have been lost as well?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Cliffs_Daughter on May 06, 2014, 03:03:47 PM
Has anybody had to opportunity to stay at that bed and breakfast on Riverside?

Going back to topic here... I photographed a friend's wedding there, and we dined and danced there all night. Not exactly an overnight stay, but impressionable nonetheless.
Interesting, what is now the tea room used to be their restaurant named, what else... "The Row"
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 03:32:37 PM
People often think that cities just become the way they are because they were meant to be that way.

This is not so.  There were many reasons why New York Jews chose Jacksonville to film movies during the winter. They could have filmed anywhere there was a temperment climate but why was Jacksonville chosen? 

California offered more stable weather and moutain and desert and ocean backdrops. 

While many people in LA hated movie people and never even received top billing, they did find tolerance just outside of what was then the city in a dusty ranch area called Hollywood and Beverly Hills.

Jacksonville hated movie people.  Upptiy blacks filming out in Arlington. Jews who seemed too, well, add every early 20th century Jewish sterotype.  They made it clear that the lifestyles of movie people were not welcomed in these parts. 

Perhaps if Jacksonville encouraged the studios instead of being either indifferent or outright rude to them, maybe our movie studios could have gone from early silent films to major motion pictures during the 1920s & 30s.

As for south Florida, please honey, in 1916 hardly anybody went to south Florida.  Miami was mostly a sandy swamp and even the Atlantic ridge was not much of anything. Palm Beach was still just being planted, it would not take on  it's true glory until the 1920s and even then it was just a few hotels and some new winter cottages.  Key West was going from it's 19th century glory as a wealthy wrecking town into a slow paced cigar rolling backwater. Key West would not really become a big artist and writers' haven until the late 1920s and 30s.

As with a lot of your posts, there are kernels of truth here, but you're overgeneralizing to the point that your major claims are largely wrong.

In the early 20th century the main center of the film industry was still in New York. Naturally, this made winter filming unpleasant. New York studios did indeed set up shop in various areas with temperate climates, including not only Jacksonville but Arizona, Cuba, and (eventually) California. Jacksonville had a number of things that made it stand out (eg, an initially welcoming business climate and many different environments for on-location shooting) but the real reason it became the winter film capital was because it was the closest to New York.

There were also a number of reasons the film industry declined in Jacksonville in the late teens. It is true that one of them was backlash from traditionalist folks who didn't like what the industry represented - or at least who resented film's growing political influence. However, there was also a progressive fashion that actively supported the industry. The election of John W. Martin over film supporter JET Bowden came out of this tension. However, the most substantial factor in the decline of Jacksonville's winter film industry was the rise of Hollywood as a feasible location for both winter and summer shooting. This led to the decline of the New York studios, and in turn there was less and less demand for winter filming in Jacksonville.

So, it's not really true that "Jacksonville hated movie people". Some elements surely hated "movie people" but there were others who really liked "movie people", but who faced an uphill battle against factors they largely couldn't influence.
[/quot

Winter movie capital, not THE MOVIE CAPITAL


The people who consorted with movie people were not respectable society people in those days.

An actress was just one step up from a prostitute or bar maid in those days, often they were the same. 
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 06, 2014, 03:36:00 PM
So what were the boundaries of said row? Was a literal row, only on Riverside Ave, or were there similar structures in surrounding streets that have been lost as well?

Riverside Avenue, roughly from Edison Street to Memorial Park/Margaret Street.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 03:41:37 PM
Avondale had restrictive covenants when it was developed in the 1920s and Florida was a very segregated state.

While there were wealthy African American insurance company and bank owners here, there were in most southern states.

Jacksonville was not a racially enlightened place where blacks and whites mixed.

Sure, you can find a racially mixed speakeasy Jazz club where blacks played and maybe a famous African American may have entered as a paying customer, but that was not the norm. Of course there were places that started out catering to solely black customers where white people would go for a good time but that was never something you talked about at the dinner table or to your mama.

A film studio (wasn't it white owned) produced films with African Anericans but it was way out in the then boondocks of Arlington, out of sight and out of mind. 
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Tacachale on May 06, 2014, 04:43:39 PM
Perhaps all this can be moved to another thread so as not to keep hijacking this very interesting material about the Row. To continue hijacking,
People often think that cities just become the way they are because they were meant to be that way.

This is not so.  There were many reasons why New York Jews chose Jacksonville to film movies during the winter. They could have filmed anywhere there was a temperment climate but why was Jacksonville chosen? 

California offered more stable weather and moutain and desert and ocean backdrops. 

While many people in LA hated movie people and never even received top billing, they did find tolerance just outside of what was then the city in a dusty ranch area called Hollywood and Beverly Hills.

Jacksonville hated movie people.  Upptiy blacks filming out in Arlington. Jews who seemed too, well, add every early 20th century Jewish sterotype.  They made it clear that the lifestyles of movie people were not welcomed in these parts. 

Perhaps if Jacksonville encouraged the studios instead of being either indifferent or outright rude to them, maybe our movie studios could have gone from early silent films to major motion pictures during the 1920s & 30s.

As for south Florida, please honey, in 1916 hardly anybody went to south Florida.  Miami was mostly a sandy swamp and even the Atlantic ridge was not much of anything. Palm Beach was still just being planted, it would not take on  it's true glory until the 1920s and even then it was just a few hotels and some new winter cottages.  Key West was going from it's 19th century glory as a wealthy wrecking town into a slow paced cigar rolling backwater. Key West would not really become a big artist and writers' haven until the late 1920s and 30s.

As with a lot of your posts, there are kernels of truth here, but you're overgeneralizing to the point that your major claims are largely wrong.

In the early 20th century the main center of the film industry was still in New York. Naturally, this made winter filming unpleasant. New York studios did indeed set up shop in various areas with temperate climates, including not only Jacksonville but Arizona, Cuba, and (eventually) California. Jacksonville had a number of things that made it stand out (eg, an initially welcoming business climate and many different environments for on-location shooting) but the real reason it became the winter film capital was because it was the closest to New York.

There were also a number of reasons the film industry declined in Jacksonville in the late teens. It is true that one of them was backlash from traditionalist folks who didn't like what the industry represented - or at least who resented film's growing political influence. However, there was also a progressive fashion that actively supported the industry. The election of John W. Martin over film supporter JET Bowden came out of this tension. However, the most substantial factor in the decline of Jacksonville's winter film industry was the rise of Hollywood as a feasible location for both winter and summer shooting. This led to the decline of the New York studios, and in turn there was less and less demand for winter filming in Jacksonville.

So, it's not really true that "Jacksonville hated movie people". Some elements surely hated "movie people" but there were others who really liked "movie people", but who faced an uphill battle against factors they largely couldn't influence.

Winter movie capital, not THE MOVIE CAPITAL


The people who consorted with movie people were not respectable society people in those days.

An actress was just one step up from a prostitute or bar maid in those days, often they were the same.

Yes, I said "winter movie capital". Summer filming was centered in New York and to an extent other Northeastern areas. Once Hollywood became established, there was less and less reason to be in New York or to have distinct winter studios. And "movie people" weren't any more reputable in LA or New York than they were in Jacksonville or anywhere else movies were shot.

Avondale had restrictive covenants when it was developed in the 1920s and Florida was a very segregated state.

While there were wealthy African American insurance company and bank owners here, there were in most southern states.

Jacksonville was not a racially enlightened place where blacks and whites mixed.

Sure, you can find a racially mixed speakeasy Jazz club where blacks played and maybe a famous African American may have entered as a paying customer, but that was not the norm. Of course there were places that started out catering to solely black customers where white people would go for a good time but that was never something you talked about at the dinner table or to your mama.

In comparison to most of the rest of the South at the time, Jacksonville was known as a comparatively friendly town for African-Americans in the late 19th century, much less so in the early 20th century. The decline was due to national and regional factors during the "nadir of American race relations" and it had as much to do with state interference in the city's affairs as any local factor. Jax also retained its reputation as a comparatively tolerant city for other minority groups (immigrants, Jews, Catholics, Syrians, Hispanics, Greeks, Italians, etc.) for a much longer period. Was it "racially enlightened"? By modern standards, definitely not. But by the standards of the contemporary South, a case can certainly be made that it was "less unenlightened" than the status quo.

A film studio (wasn't it white owned) produced films with African Anericans but it was way out in the then boondocks of Arlington, out of sight and out of mind. 

Norman Studios (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Studios) produced films for African-Americans and starring African-Americans; the Norman family is white. The studio didn't open until 1920, after most of the industry had already left town. In fact, it set up in the old Eagle Film Company facilities, which had folded in 1917. It stopped making films in 1928, when talkies became the standard, and the property was used for other things.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 10:29:51 PM
"Napoleon Bonaparte Broward had been Mayor of the City of La Villa--which was mostly black and minorcan and jewish--- and the city has one of the oldest Jewish Cemetaries in the south."

REALLY?

Nothing that I've ever read about Napoleon Bonaparte Broward has ever been about him being racially inclusive.

If anything, he riled up the white trash for votes.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 10:41:32 PM
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00102915/00012

Apparently Broward was not as progressive as people think .
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 10:58:25 PM
"At least, so thinks the present Governor of Florida, the Hon. Napoleon Bonaparte Broward, who, realizing the disGovernor advantage under which his state suffers by reason Broward of of its numerous negro population, in his recent Message to the Florida Legislature presented for their consideration the following suggestion:
There has been no agitation, as in some other states, that the expense of running negro schools should be derived from the assessment and collection from the property of the white people. In fact, no question has arisen to cause any disturbance, yet it is apparent to even the casual observer that the relation between the two races is becoming more strained and acute. The negroes to-day have less friendship for the white people than they have ever had since the Civil War, and the white people have less tolerance and sympathy for the negro. It is my opinion that the two races will not, for any great length of time, occupy the same territory without friction and outbreaks of disorder between the two.
I doubt if education can possibly tend to the happiness of any race so long as it only aids in a keener discernment of the hopeless differences existing between that race and a dominant race in the same country and in the same neighborhood. The educated negro can look back with no pride upon the past history of his race, nor can he look forward to a time when his race can hope to control the politics of the country or regulate society.
1 deem it best and, therefore, recommend a resolution memorializing the Congress of the United States to purchase territory, either domestic or foreign, and provide means to purchase the property of the negroes, at reasonable prices, and to transport the negroes to the territory purchased by the United States. The United States to organize a government for them of the negro race; to protect them from foreign invasion; to prevent white people from living among them in the territory, and to prevent negroes from migrating back to the United States. I believe this to be the only hope of a solution of the race problem between the white and black races, as I can see no ultimate good results that can accrue from the education of a race, without planting in their being the hope of attaining the highest position in government affairs and society. In fact, I can see no reason to expect that any man can be made happy by whetting his intelligence to that point where he can better contemplate or realize the hopeless gulf that must ever separate him and his race from the best things that the dominant race (who employ him as a servant) have in store for themselves. I believe that any person so situated would grow miserable, in proportion as he increased in intelligence. I believe that we should consider the fact that the negroes are the wards of the white people, and that it is our duty to make whatever provision for them would be best for their well-being; and it is my opinion that the above recommendation, that they be given a home of their own, where they can hope by living proper lives, to occupy the highest places in it, thus educating and civilizing them, may tend toward their happiness and good. More especially do I make this recommendation for the good of the white race; to keep sweet the lives of the white people; to keep their consciences keen and clean. It is absolutely necessary to the civilization and Christianization of the world by them. Our children must be able to read the history of our lives and see that it contains accounts of the best lived lives, and that their ancestors were the best people of the earth. Whatever tends to sour our natures, or that causes us to give way to passion or temper, tends to destroy us, and no cost should be considered in a matter so fraught with danger to the attainment of the civilization and Christianization of the world as will the attempt to compel these two races to live in the same territory.
These sentiments of Governor Broward present the practical views of the most advanced Southern thought upon the situation, and certainly if legislative action of the character suggested by the Governor were taken by Florida and followed by similar requests on the part of other Southern States, the negro problem would be in a fair way to early solution, could the co-operation of the North be secured to carry out his plan."

---- I guess this was progressive thinking for its day .

http://books.google.com/books?id=gShCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA458&lpg=PA458&dq=napoleon+bonaparte+broward+race+relations&source=bl&ots=v2j9xA2RqO&sig=uxfvZYIGHEpz3G8JcJEpsjhNLfk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BZ5pU_rJHM-yyAST1IHgBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBDgK
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 11:18:52 PM
It's ok if you want to believe that Broward was some sort of progressive in the modern sense. 

Just like comparing a few blocks in Riverside being equal to the great cities of the south.  Sure, there are comparisons but just about every prosperous city had an exclusive street where the elite lived.  If the street was still architecturally intact and a protected historical district by the National Trust For Historic Preservation then we could show it off with pride .  Or let it rot like we do with Springfield.  It's what the people value.

MetroJacksonville romanizes many things which in some cases was unique to Jax but most others were just as common place in cities in the south, north, west and even Camada.



I understand completely and love that you try to instill a pride of place. Though, to be honest, most prosperous cities had pretty much the same things we've had.

Interracial brothers in palatial homes may have been more prominent in JAX than elsewhere, must just about every major city had madams catering to just about every kinky sexual fantasy .  JAX was a port and railroad city that also catered to tourists, did we have more than the average city? Perhaps we did.


So it's alright if you overly romanticize while whitewashing the past, everybody does it.  Frankly, it's part of MetroJacksonville's charm.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 06, 2014, 11:58:37 PM
You become adorable when you get riled up.  It's kind of cute actually.

It also shows that you have a passion and love for our city, if only we had more like you.

For the record, you were the one that brought up Broward and made a sweeping generalization equating his name with a tolerant city, or at least more tolerant than say, most of Florida which is believed to of had more lynchings than any other southern state.

But you understand that we must judge people not by our modern day values but judge within the context of their era. You see the good in NBB even though history and our modern values of right and wrong shows Broward to be a racist and tipped Florida into ecological disasters by attempting to drain the Everglades.  During his era, draining the Everglades was a good thing and rants about African Americans and basically segregation by moving them away from whites was considered a forward thinking virtue but then who would do all the work?

NBB could not of been all bad.  He did try to educate poor Floridians which was most than his immediate predecessors did.  Big cities like JAX controlled the statehouse, he wanted poor yeomen farmers in the rural parts of the state to vote and be educated.  His was no fan of Henry Flagler and his railroads neither.  While he did not stop them from buying and controlling Tallahassee, he did certainly give them a run for their money.

Healthy debate from differing viewpoints is what we need more of.   


Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on May 07, 2014, 12:10:57 AM
Totally agree that our country very quickly tuned into am outright vicious place racially during this era.

Though, in just one generation we went from "Segregation now and segregation forever " to having the first African American President.

It can go both ways in a very short period of time.

History is repeating itself.  Prior to the 1970s oil crisis, most Americans did not have any real animosity toward people from the Middle East.  Then by 2005, an uncomfortable percentage of Americans had a deep fears of men getting on a plane if they looked vaguely Islamist.   
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: AuditoreEnterprise on May 08, 2014, 07:08:54 PM
People often think that cities just become the way they are because they were meant to be that way.

This is not so.  There were many reasons why New York Jews chose Jacksonville to film movies during the winter. They could have filmed anywhere there was a temperment climate but why was Jacksonville chosen? 

California offered more stable weather and moutain and desert and ocean backdrops. 

While many people in LA hated movie people and never even received top billing, they did find tolerance just outside of what was then the city in a dusty ranch area called Hollywood and Beverly Hills.

Jacksonville hated movie people.  Upptiy blacks filming out in Arlington. Jews who seemed too, well, add every early 20th century Jewish sterotype.  They made it clear that the lifestyles of movie people were not welcomed in these parts. 

Perhaps if Jacksonville encouraged the studios instead of being either indifferent or outright rude to them, maybe our movie studios could have gone from early silent films to major motion pictures during the 1920s & 30s.

As for south Florida, please honey, in 1916 hardly anybody went to south Florida.  Miami was mostly a sandy swamp and even the Atlantic ridge was not much of anything. Palm Beach was still just being planted, it would not take on  it's true glory until the 1920s and even then it was just a few hotels and some new winter cottages.  Key West was going from it's 19th century glory as a wealthy wrecking town into a slow paced cigar rolling backwater. Key West would not really become a big artist and writers' haven until the late 1920s and 30s.

As with a lot of your posts, there are kernels of truth here, but you're overgeneralizing to the point that your major claims are largely wrong.

In the early 20th century the main center of the film industry was still in New York. Naturally, this made winter filming unpleasant. New York studios did indeed set up shop in various areas with temperate climates, including not only Jacksonville but Arizona, Cuba, and (eventually) California. Jacksonville had a number of things that made it stand out (eg, an initially welcoming business climate and many different environments for on-location shooting) but the real reason it became the winter film capital was because it was the closest to New York.

There were also a number of reasons the film industry declined in Jacksonville in the late teens. It is true that one of them was backlash from traditionalist folks who didn't like what the industry represented - or at least who resented film's growing political influence. However, there was also a progressive fashion that actively supported the industry. The election of John W. Martin over film supporter JET Bowden came out of this tension. However, the most substantial factor in the decline of Jacksonville's winter film industry was the rise of Hollywood as a feasible location for both winter and summer shooting. This led to the decline of the New York studios, and in turn there was less and less demand for winter filming in Jacksonville.

So, it's not really true that "Jacksonville hated movie people". Some elements surely hated "movie people" but there were others who really liked "movie people", but who faced an uphill battle against factors they largely couldn't influence.

+100 a majority of what you stated I in fact heard when taking a history of cinema class in LA a few years ago.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 09, 2014, 05:20:27 PM
Starting prep for yet another major surgery so I'm not as active as I'd like to be but this is FUNNY. Miami and South Florida was a backwater... REALLY?  There were just 506 votes to incorporate Miami in 1896, and that included 100 Black votes from a labor district then known as 'Colored Town', todays Overtown. In 1900, 1,681 people lived in Miami, Florida; in 1910, there were 5,471 people; and in 1920, there were 29,549 people. That backwater somehow managed to add an average of 56,247 new residents, every 5 years from 1920 until 1960.  Throughout the first 6-7 years of The Great Florida Boom, Jacksonville's Terminal was handling some 250 named trains daily, most of which were running in several sections and a few of which were running in 24 sections. Those crowds may have paused in Jacksonville, but the destination was overwhelmingly Miami and South Florida. The 1926 hurricane left between 25,000 and 50,000 Miamian's homeless. By the mid depression the South Beach was in full development and by WWII the military sprawled all across South Florida. 1965 alone over 100,000 Cuban's entered the city on 'Freedom Flights.' Sorry but Miami took off and Jacksonville never even saw them on radar again for all of the reasons given by others in this thread.

That 'Bible Thumpers' somehow held Jacksonville back while not effecting the rest of the country is trying to place your modernist perceptions into the frame of a completely different era. Frankly LA was far ahead of us as a metro area before the first studio ever left town. "The Newest Religious Sect Has Started in Los Angeles": Race, Class, Ethnicity, and the Origins of the Pentecostal Movement, 1906-1913. Both Los Angeles and San Francisco were born 'Roman Catholic', in 1900, visiting Russian dignitaries proclaimed them a hotbed of religious fanatics!

Quote
Los Angeles, following the custom which then prevailed among the Latin races, of giving religious names to places, was Nuestra Senora de Los Angeles, sometimes written Nuestra Senora la Reina de Los Angeles—"Our Lady the Queen of the Angels." FOUNDED BY MEXICANS Los Angeles was founded on September 4, 1781, by a small band of pobladores, or colonists, who had been recruited In the Mexican states of Slnaloa and Sonora, and brought hero under the command of a government officer, to found an agricultural colony, mainly for the purpose of raising produce for tho soldiers at the presidios. , The first census gave the place a 1 population of 141. The residents were a mixed class, composed of one Euro- 1 pean, seventy-two Spanish-Americans, seven Indians, twenty-two mulattoes and thirty-nine Mestizos. As recently as 1831, fifty years after the founding of the pueblo, the population was only 770. In January, 1847, the population was 1600. Los Angeles dates Its most rapid growth from November 9, 1885, when the laflt spike driven in the line of the Atlantic & Pacific railway formed a link which Joined It with the east. And what Induced the hegira to this land?, you ask. Listen. Man Is a creature who looks to comfort and health. The extremes of heat and cold of the land east of the Rockies are too well known to bear repetition. The sunny southland Is free of these features. Who can wonder that there are hundreds of thousands of persons who are aspirants for homes In a city at which the United States weather bureau states the mercury fell below 32 degrees, Fahrenheit, only six times during ten years? Summer in Southern California is not blighted by an elevated mercury, which, coupled with excessive humidity, makes life In eastern cities almost unbearable. CLIMATE NOT ONLY ASSET Someone has said that the possession of health Is more to be prized thas the accumulation of riches. Under this beneficent climate the possession of health becomes more secure, and health, which is fading away, takes new life and blooms again. Many people of the east gain the erroneous Impression that Los Angeles has climate and that alons to .speak In Its favor. The recital of a few facts may serve to correct such an Impression. Los Angeles has a present assessed property valuation of nearly $300,000,---000. In the confines of the city there are 1850 manufacturing establishments, employing $30,000,000 capital, giving work to 15,000 workers and turning out $65,000,000 worth of goods each year. Los Angeles has a harbor on which the Untied States government hns spent millions and will gradually expend millions more, the commerce of which, it is stated, will become stupendous on the completion of the Panama canal. It Is now the greatest lumber receiving port of the United States. Throughout tho country the banks of Los Angeles are noted for their solid and prosperous condition. They have deposits aggregating $125,000,000 and during 1909 the clearings amounted to $673,165,728. Los Angeles has been leading all cities of the United States in increase of bank clearings. Tho financial storms of the past twenty years have been successfully ridden out by the local banks. 350 MTI,ES OF CAR TRACK Los Angeles has perhaps the most complete network of car lines on the continent, the total mileage of electric railway tracks In the city being more than 350. A city's parka are its jewels and Los Angeles is not ■without adornment. There are a dozen parks within the corporate limits, aggregating more than 600 acres. Seven public playgrounds are In operation i« this city as well aa four vacation or summer centers. During tho past year $42,000 was expended In maintaining the play-< grounds. To look from the past to the future for a moment, the copsideration of the completion of the great aqueduct, now in the course of construction from the Owens river'to the city, a distance of 220 miles, should claim attention. Th« completion of this great project wi\l slve thje city a supply of pure water from the snow-clad sides of the highest mountain in the United States, sufficient for a population of 2,000,000. Not only can the city be supplied with drinking water for many years, but there will be enough surplus to Irrigate all the available land In the county. Not only this, but the water will furnish an immense amount of power for electric lighting and for factories.
Los Angeles Herald 11/10/1910
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: mtraininjax on May 10, 2014, 04:00:41 AM
Quote
Why on earth would northerners not go a little bit further south for a significantly warmer experience?

Exactly Simms! As much as Henry Flagler did for us and St. Augustine for that matter, the FEC put a nail in our coffin when it expanded to Miami. We remained a gas stop for the gas guzzler autos for years after on their way to Disneyworld. So now, we look to expand our own identity.

This week, we have a great spotlight with the TPC being played near us, yeah its still St. Johns County, but Jax gets the benefits. Just as the Row got the benefits of Jacksonville 100 years ago when the people who built the Row did so with money earned by selling timber and other commodities of a growing Jacksonville at the time.

In Dr. Woods Architectural Book of Jax, he has many pictures of homes that used to be in Brooklyn along the river, even the Florida Times Union building was built on a site that included a "Row" house, which was torn down so that the FTU could build........that. But alas, progress. We still have a few, best to love what we have now as they serve as reminders of our past.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 08:05:16 AM
I'm pretty sure the FTU building replaced a few warehouses and wharves. I believe Greeley's house in Brooklyn was between there and Forest Street....probably where Haskell is located today.

I still would not say the FEC put the nail in Jax's coffin. Jax was the size of what Waycross, GA is today. The reality is, Jax wasn't even Florida's largest city when the Flagler built his railroad bridge over the St. Johns (1890), connecting a railroad that already ran from South Jacksonville to St. Augustine. That honor belonged to Key West. Pensacola and Tampa also were not that far off our trail. Flagler's entry into the Florida rail business was a major reason for Jax's growth as well.

1870

6,912 - Jacksonville
5,016 - Key West
3,347 - Pensacola
796 - Tampa

1880

9,890 - Key West
7,650 - Jacksonville
6,845 - Pensacola
720 - Tampa

1890

18,080 - Key West
17,201 - Jacksonville
11,750 - Pensacola
5,532 - Tampa

1900

28,429 - Jacksonville
17,747 - Pensacola
17,114 - Key West
15,839 - Tampa
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Tacachale on May 10, 2014, 09:12:09 AM
FEC definitely didn't put the nail in our coffin. At the time Jax was arguably the most important town in Florida, it was still a small town in one of the most backwoods states. Other areas in the state have leapfrogged us, but the fact is we're a proportionately larger and more prominent city on the nationwide scale now than we were in the early 20th century.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 10:58:24 AM
Although keep in mind that these census numbers can be misleading because they do not account for the areas that were annexed into jacksonville or the cities that were Consolidated into the City of Greater Jacksonville in 1892.  You can see the fairly large jump between 1890 and 1900 reflect that consolidation (The City of Jacksonville, City of La Villa, City of Oklahoma, Township of Warren etc all consolidated and became "Greater Jacksonville")  I dont think that the Census in 1900 counted the City of South Jacksonville as part of Jville either, but I may be mistaken on that.

We tend to forget that prior to Consolidation, the Census takers and population counters had no reason to believe in organizing numbers in order to align with the future.

Keep in mind that the same applies to the other communities (outside of Key West) as well. For example, Tampa, West Tampa and Ybor City were all separate communities in the 19th century also. Another example is Daytona Beach. Before 1926, there were three cities, Daytona, Seabreeze and Goodall. Nevertheless, none of Florida's cities (suburbs included) were major population centers 100 years ago and Jax and Tampa were never really that far apart (size-wise) until the Bay Area exploded in population in the mid-20th century.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2014, 11:05:53 AM
Although keep in mind that these census numbers can be misleading because they do not account for the areas that were annexed into jacksonville or the cities that were Consolidated into the City of Greater Jacksonville in 1892.  You can see the fairly large jump between 1890 and 1900 reflect that consolidation (The City of Jacksonville, City of La Villa, City of Oklahoma, Township of Warren etc all consolidated and became "Greater Jacksonville")  I dont think that the Census in 1900 counted the City of South Jacksonville as part of Jville either, but I may be mistaken on that.

We tend to forget that prior to Consolidation, the Census takers and population counters had no reason to believe in organizing numbers in order to align with the future.

Keep in mind that the same applies to the other communities (outside of Key West) as well. For example, Tampa, West Tampa and Ybor City were all separate communities in the 19th century also. Another example is Daytona Beach. Before 1926, there were three cities, Daytona, Seabreeze and Goodall. Nevertheless, none of Florida's cities (suburbs included) were major population centers 100 years ago and Jax and Tampa were never really that far apart (size-wise) until the Bay Area exploded in population in the mid-20th century.

I'm unaware of any other city in florida besides for miami-dade that annexed its entire county into the consolidated government, surely you'd have to admit this carries the potential for making comparisons of census data from then and now at least somewhat misleading? To be fair you'd have to compare the original areas covered by the early 20th century census data to the data for those same areas later, not just any data that purports to cover the city of Jacksonville, because the definition changed. Otherwise you'll likely have a false appearance of prosperity. Which I suspect is in fact is what has occurred, what was considered the city itself has declined, but by expanding its land boundaries at appears to have increased in population.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 11:11:23 AM
I'm unaware of any other city in florida besides for miami-dade that annexed its entire county into the consolidated government, surely you'd have to admit this carries the potential for making comparisons of census data from then and now at least somewhat misleading? To be fair you'd have to compare the original areas covered by the early 20th century census data to the data for those same areas later, not just any data that purports to cover the city of Jacksonville, because the definition changed. Otherwise you'll likely have a false appearance of prosperity. Which I suspect is in fact is what has occurred, what was considered the city itself has declined, but by expanding its land boundaries at appears to have increased in population.

You'd have to do this for literally every city when comparing Jax, unless you go by urban area statistics.  It's why I take numbers like this with a grain of salt when additional data on whatever is the focus of comparison isn't readily available. Also, Miami isn't consolidated with Miami-Dade County.  It's still a separate city, like many of the others (Hialeah, Miami Beach, Coral Gables, Miami Gardens, etc.) in Miami-Dade County.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2014, 11:17:34 AM
I'm unaware of any other city in florida besides for miami-dade that annexed its entire county into the consolidated government, surely you'd have to admit this carries the potential for making comparisons of census data from then and now at least somewhat misleading? To be fair you'd have to compare the original areas covered by the early 20th century census data to the data for those same areas later, not just any data that purports to cover the city of Jacksonville, because the definition changed. Otherwise you'll likely have a false appearance of prosperity. Which I suspect is in fact is what has occurred, what was considered the city itself has declined, but by expanding its land boundaries at appears to have increased in population.

You'd have to do this for literally every city when comparing Jax, unless you go by urban area statistics.  It's why I take numbers like this with a grain of salt when additional data on whatever is the focus of comparison isn't readily available. Also, Miami isn't consolidated with Miami-Dade County.  It's still a separate city, like many of the others (Hialeah, Miami Beach, Coral Gables, Miami Gardens, etc.) in Miami-Dade County.

If there are no other cities that consolidated in the fashion we did, doesn't it seem like these kind of comparisons would lead to artificially positive conclusions? As the result of consolidations we are the largest city in the United States by land area, I'd assume we don't disagree that this might skew comparisons of census data that cover "the city of jacksonville"? The point isn't that definitions and boundaries haven't changed in other cities, just that none of them come remotely close to the degree ours have changed.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 11:21:03 AM
True but none of the were the official port of entry into the state of florida.

Another thing that escapes people poring through the records is that the population of people who lived here was very different from the number of people who were actually here.  Because of the Trains, Ships etc, (although, not the roads, if JET Bowden is to be taken seriously by 1914) there was also a daily population far in excess of the people who would have been counted in any census.

For example if you have bordellos, hotels, inns and flop houses with a thousand sailors who are here for a month or so while business is conducted and new deals are made for the next shipment, none of them would have been counted in a census.

This become problematic by 1890, where during half the year the downtown alone hosted 80 thousand additional residents, none of whom would have been counted in census numbers.

And really this is still the reality today.  Florida being a tourist state, there is a definite difference between the number of people who live (and are counted) in Florida and the people who are actually here.  Snowbirds, tourists, etc....  Many millions more.  Census numbers can be tricky that way.

What I have found helpful is to look at the number of hotels, boarding houses, and flop houses that are listed in the city directories in order to get a sense of this.

How do these numbers compare with Pensacola, Key West, and Tampa for example? By 1900, Tampa and its suburbs had a robust cigar manucturing trade, a port and immigrants following in as well. Without having a rational nexus of apples to apples comparable data, I think its hard to make the argument that Jax was significantly larger at the time or significantly more influential than other US cities of similar scale and size during that period. Sure, we were a gateway to Florida (significantly less important in 1900 than 2014) but we were not the only gateway, depending on where said person was traveling from and what their mode of transportation may have been.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 11:30:46 AM
If there are no other cities that consolidated in the fashion we did, doesn't it seem like these kind of comparisons would lead to artificially positive conclusions? As the result of consolidations we are the largest city in the United States by land area, I'd assume we don't disagree that this might skew comparisons of census data that cover "the city of jacksonville"? The point isn't that definitions and boundaries haven't changed in other cities, just that none of them come remotely close to the degree ours have changed.

Yes. I believe that Jax has always been a second/third tier US city. Even in the years that Jax was considered Florida's big city, it never was significantly larger or more "head & shoulders "influential than some other regions in the state. We had certain things we excelled at and other communities had their assets as well. Flagler and Plant's rail expansion competition benefitted Jax and every other Florida city that didn't get passed by or replaced, like Cedar Key. The growth from their infrastructure investments helped grow business and industry, which resulted in the development of districts like The Row in communities throughout the state.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2014, 11:39:32 AM
If there are no other cities that consolidated in the fashion we did, doesn't it seem like these kind of comparisons would lead to artificially positive conclusions? As the result of consolidations we are the largest city in the United States by land area, I'd assume we don't disagree that this might skew comparisons of census data that cover "the city of jacksonville"? The point isn't that definitions and boundaries haven't changed in other cities, just that none of them come remotely close to the degree ours have changed.

Yes. I believe that Jax has always been a second/third tier US city. Even in the years that Jax was considered Florida's big city, it never was significantly larger or more "head & shoulders "influential than some other regions in the state. We had certain things we excelled at and other communities had their assets as well. Flagler and Plant's rail expansion competition benefitted Jax and every other Florida city that didn't get passed by or replaced, like Cedar Key. The growth from their infrastructure investments helped grow business and industry, which resulted in the development of districts like The Row in communities throughout the state.

Except it was in fact the rail and sea transportation hub of the state, which by default led to it being the banking and insurance hub of the state. Allowing us to fall behind in these critical categories, which continues today as we debate the CSX rail extension and whether or not to dredge the channel to allow panamax and post-panamax ships in (something other cities already have done) and simply continues to worsen the problem. If you look at the growth and sustenance of major urban centers, they all follow trade. We decided beginning in the 60s that we didn't like being an industrial town anymore, so let's turn it all into parking lots. The result is as devastating as it was unsurprising. But I think saying we were never the preeminent commercial city in the state is simply whitewashing the past to make the present feel less gloomy. We absolutely were.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 12:03:28 PM
I'm unaware of any other city in florida besides for miami-dade that annexed its entire county into the consolidated government, surely you'd have to admit this carries the potential for making comparisons of census data from then and now at least somewhat misleading? To be fair you'd have to compare the original areas covered by the early 20th century census data to the data for those same areas later, not just any data that purports to cover the city of Jacksonville, because the definition changed. Otherwise you'll likely have a false appearance of prosperity. Which I suspect is in fact is what has occurred, what was considered the city itself has declined, but by expanding its land boundaries at appears to have increased in population.

You'd have to do this for literally every city when comparing Jax, unless you go by urban area statistics.  It's why I take numbers like this with a grain of salter when additional data on whatever is the focus of comparison isn't present. Also, Miami isn't consolidated with Miami-Dade County.  It's still a separate city, like many of the others (Hialeah, Miami Beach, Coral Gables, Miami Gardens, etc.) in Miami-Dade County.

This kind of makes the point that cherry picking a few isolated areas for comparison in census charts that no longer represent the geography arent useful unless looked at in context to the time.

You are taking the grain of salt with the wrong bits of information.

If you had taken the numbers from a census in south carolina in 1860, for instance, where there were a disproportionately large number of slaves, you would only have 60 percent of the actual population. *3/5s rule Dred Scott Decision.

This doesnt mean that there were fewer people there.

I'm basically claiming that they all were pretty insignificant (outside of a regional basis) and of similar scale. In the grand scheme of things, adding 2,000 people from a LaVilla or West Tampa during a 1880s consolidation doesn't amount to much.  No matter what data we use, population range isn't going to jumb from small town in rural state to large city in an urban state. I don't have the numbers in front of me at the moment, but it would be interesting to see county data from that time period, as well as the original metropolitan and urban area numbers when they started being tracked.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 12:05:27 PM
LaVilla, Brooklyn, South Jacksonville, and Jacksonville were so close that its very misleading to separate them.  It would be more accurate to say that in 1870, the SouthEast portion of what is now Downtown Jacksonville had a white population of 6,912, since that is what those numbers represent.

LaVilla, Brooklyn and South Jacksonville probably had 10-15k people combined in 1930.  They were significantly smaller around the time of the Great Fire.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 12:40:57 PM
Tampas merchants directly competed with Jacksonville's and no doubt had many more migrant workers from Puerto Rico and the islands than are counted for in the census numbers.  Im not as acquainted with Tampa history, but it would have been pretty crucial to the gulf based nature of the spanish colonial empire.  With an east coast orientation of the United States and the Atlantic predisposition of the English, Jacksonville naturally became more important.

The Steamships, Naval Vessels and Railroads are what provided the economic engine for the city, but the Bordellos and the Carny folk are what created Florida Tourism, and that changed the nature of the city and then the state.

Much of my family is from Tampa, so I'm pretty familiar with the area and its history.

Tampa was similar to Birmingham. A place that initally grew very quickly due to industry. In Tampa's case, the arrival of Plant's railroad, the discovery of phosphate, and Vicente M. Ybor deciding to build a cigar manufacturing town a mile north all happened in the 1880s. Its port is still Florida's largest by tonnage, due to the region's phosphate and citrus industries. Being on the coast, it was and still is a shipbuilding center (probably moreso than we are today).

The cigar industry peaked around 1929 before Jax's Swisher put the clamps on it via mechanization of the manufacturing process. The cigar industry attracted immigrants mainly from Cuba, Spain, Italy, and Eastern Europe. Even today, you can see this through the architecture of neighborhoods such as West Tampa, Palmetto Beach and Ybor. That atmosphere also led to it being a center of organized crime for much of the 20th century.

Like Flagler, Plant opened hotels as well, including the 500 room Tampa Bay Hotel (now University of Tampa) in 1891. It was also the state's embarkation center for American troops during the Spanish-American War. Unlike Jax, other cities with their own economies were growing "nearby" as well. For example, St. Petersburg was incoporated in 1892 and quickly became a retirement and tourism center. There's also places like Tarpon Springs, which attracted Greek immigrants in the early 20th century to work in the sponge industry. Close in proximity, over the years, all of these places have grown into each other and are now one major urban area, despite maintaining their status as seperate municipalities.

Locally, we tend to overlook this area at times, probably due to it being on a different coast and Plant being the guy, instead of Flagler. However, it has a lot of similarities with early 20th century Jax. The major differences being the industries of each region and cluster of nearby cities (Tampa had/still has a ton, Jax, not so much).
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 12:56:42 PM
LaVilla, Brooklyn, South Jacksonville, and Jacksonville were so close that its very misleading to separate them.  It would be more accurate to say that in 1870, the SouthEast portion of what is now Downtown Jacksonville had a white population of 6,912, since that is what those numbers represent.

LaVilla, Brooklyn and South Jacksonville probably had 10-15k people combined in 1930.  They were significantly smaller around the time of the Great Fire.

In 1935?  you mean after the Great Migration of 1916?  Well nothing to argue about there. ;)

All Jax census numbers after 1890, also include LaVilla and Brooklyn. Neither had more than 2-3k residents when originally annexed into Jax. When South Jax was annexed into Jax during the 1930s, it barely had 5k. Same goes for Murray Hill in 1925. In fact, part of the reason for annexing Murray Hill was to keep Tampa from becoming the state's largest city (Jax would resolve this by eventually consolidating with Duval County). While separate municipalities during this era, all of these Duval County towns were small and pretty insignificant, in the grand scheme of things. Despite all those pre-1968 mergers, both the actual cities of Tampa and Miami (not counting the other cities adjacent to them) still caught and surpassed Jax in population by 1960.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:02:23 PM
The Port of Jacksonville was established as an official US port of Entry in the 1830s.  Tampa's designation for the US Port of Entry was almost a hundred years later, as it turns out, and the place didnt really grow until phosphates were discovered there in the 1890s. 

And Chris is quite right, the port designation brought about the immediate development of both banking and insurance,.  Ossian Hart himself was on the charter boards of the larger concerns

The port could have been established in 1600. The date really doesn't matter. My point is that Jax was a small place (everything in Duval County included) and not much larger/influential than other areas of similar size during the late 19th and early 20th century. If anything, we were a leader among a peer group of larger towns in, what was then the South's least populated state.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:25:13 PM
Except it was in fact the rail and sea transportation hub of the state, which by default led to it being the banking and insurance hub of the state.

We're still the rail hub and will be for quite some time, since the infrastructure is here. Give me the years of us being the sea transportation hub of the state. My guess is we lost that status probably lost that status over 80 years ago and even when we had it, one of our feet had a banana peel under it. Miami is an international banking center now, due to it being a gateway to Latin America but there's not much we could have done locally to keep the banking and insurance industry from consolidating in the 80s and 90s. It's hard to blame Jax when a Charlotte-based bank decides to purchase the hometown company and eliminate those duplicate back office operations.

Quote
Allowing us to fall behind in these critical categories, which continues today as we debate the CSX rail extension and whether or not to dredge the channel to allow panamax and post-panamax ships in (something other cities already have done) and simply continues to worsen the problem.

Our port was surpassed a century ago. Even Savannah's port drawfs ours but that doesn't mean that it's a more influential or economically sound community than us.  We'll never be number one in everything and the reality is, even if we do dredge, that doesn't mean post panamax ships will flock here.  With that said, I do agree that we've continually shoot ourselves in the foot over the last century........which is another reason I don't believe Flagler was the nail in Jax's coffin. Moving here from elsewhere, to me, Jax is a place that wants to grow up but has no idea of how or what path it should take...so nothing gets done and it just falls further behind.

Quote
If you look at the growth and sustenance of major urban centers, they all follow trade. We decided beginning in the 60s that we didn't like being an industrial town anymore, so let's turn it all into parking lots. The result is as devastating as it was unsurprising.

That industry didn't leave. It relocated to other areas of town. Like every other industrial city, the number of residents working in manufacturing jobs has declined (and will continue to do so) as technology advances. However, the elimination of it in downtown, did negatively impact the Northbank and we did not do ourselves any favors playing Godzilla.

Quote
But I think saying we were never the preeminent commercial city in the state is simply whitewashing the past to make the present feel less gloomy. We absolutely were.

I'm not whitewashing anything. It's just a fallacy to be sitting around believing Jax was some sort of grand poobah of commerce that drawfed everything else in Florida for decades. That's simply not true. We had (and still do) some areas we excell at. Other communities did (and still do) today as well. It's up to us to better utilize our assets for future growth and economic prosperity and I'll agree that we've done a horrible job at that.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2014, 01:33:13 PM
meh.  you havent made much of a case for your final sentence in this last post.  Random citations of imperfectly recorded, partial census figures and thats about it.

+1

That's a lot of conclusion for no directly comparable data.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:34:10 PM
Port of Entry.  Meaning that foreign ships coming to the United States could stop in Jville first.  They couldnt in Tampa.

And obviously when we are talking about the history of florida, we are talking about comparative sizes and importance of florida cities.  I don't think anyone was under the illusion that we were talking about Jville in comparison to Rome, Paris, or Bagdad. ;)

This is like debating that Gulfport is more important than Pascagoula. Florida was pretty rural and insignificant during this era. It was the South's smallest state. That says a lot when Mississippi and Alabama had more economic punch. At the end of the day, we all were smurfs. Jax was never a NYC, Chicago or even Atlanta of economic influence in comparison to Florida's cities of similar size back in that era.  If anything, you're looking at one being a Houston and another being a Dallas.  Regional competitor? Sure, but not an LA verses Fresno type of difference.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:35:44 PM
meh.  you havent made much of a case for your final sentence in this last post.  Random citations of imperfectly recorded, partial census figures and thats about it.

Likewise.  I've already stated my case and what would be needed to suggest its off-base. I can pull additional statistical data (and may so later on), but I've got a few more important things to take care of before putting in research time.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:39:51 PM
LOL, I just looked back at the thread title. What does this have to do with The Row?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 01:58:17 PM
^Yes, that is correct. Since you have a problem with the city population numbers I used to illustrate the points I posted, I'll supplement it with core county census numbers from the same period later on.

What do you see in the text that you believe is inaccurate or that you don't agree with? Me claiming that Flagler was not the nail in Jax's coffin, that there were peer communities of similar scale and importance to Jax from that particular area, or that the City of Key West was larger than the City of Jax, according to the 1890 US Census?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: simms3 on May 10, 2014, 02:27:49 PM
Whole county populations do exist.  One can see that "Duval" County led the state for quite some time.  However, FL itself was never really an important state.  I'd argue population aside and entertainment value aside, FL still isn't an important state.  So being the "hub" of a non-important state makes everything a moot point.

Jax from 1870-1930 was never the size of a lot of cities across the south.  And it's true that many other cities had something similar to the "Row".  In fact, I'd argue that The Row wasn't the only street of its kind even within Jacksonville.  All of this is somehow irrelevant to the thread.

The Row was a beautiful street that we now really no longer have to the same effect, though I'd argue, those old wooden-framed mansions probably aren't as high and best use as what we have now, which is high rise residential, a beautiful park, apartments, retail, etc.  The area today could certainly be cleaned up, densified, and made more pleasant, but it's about the most photogenic urban nook in the city today and is a nice place to live.

As the city grows, questions will need to be asked of current density levels maintained by restored 1910s/1920s houses/mansions.  I was looking at 2010 Census.  Census tracts in Avondale and Riverside are really NOT dense at all.  3-5,000 ppsm.  That's hardly enough to really support a thriving urban walkable neighborhood and streetcar.  What will we want to do going forward because I'd argue that if we want to spend $100M+ to put streetcar through Avondale, it will all be a waste at current density levels, which don't support strong ridership (not that there's even that much traffic or lack of parking either, so why would people ditch their Mercedes and Lexuses?).

I do wish the Row were better documented and I wish I could find my book on the Cummers, which had lots of pictures.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 02:39:30 PM
Here are the core county populations of a few "major" Florida cities in the late 19th century and early 20th century. While Pensacola (Escambia) was more of a peer during the reconstruction period, Tampa (Hillsborough) had become the main peer by 1900, primarily due to its port, phosphate, cigars, and the Spanish-American War. Hillsborough passed Duval in population the first decade of the 20th century before having a "setback" with part of the county splitting to form Pinellas (St. Petersburg/Clearwater). Miami-Dade rapidly caught everyone and never looked back after the Great Depression. I believe it's hard to prove that Jax was considerably more economically influential than Tampa at any point in the 20th century and Miami after WWII. By the same token, during the immediate decades following the Civil War, I'm not so sure it was "significantly" more influential than Pensacola. Go back before than and we'd have to start considering the city we lost....Mobile.

1880

19,431 Duval
12,156 Escambia
10,940 Monroe
 5,814 Hillsborough



1890

26,800 Duval
20,188 Escambia
18,006 Monroe
14,941 Hillsborough
   861 Miami-Dade


1900

39,733 Duval
36,013 Hillsborough
28,313 Escambia
18,006 Monroe
 4,955 Miami-Dade


1910

78,374 Hillsborough
75,163 Duval County
38,029 Escambia
21,563 Monroe
11,933 Miami-Dade


1920

113,540 Duval
 88,257 Hillsborough (Pinellas succeeded from Hillsborough in 1912)
 49,386 Escambia
 42,753 Miami-Dade
 28,265 Pinellas
 19,550 Monroe

1930

155,503 Duval
153,519 Hillsborough
142,955 Miami-Dade
 62,149 Pinellas
 53,594 Escambia
 13,624 Monroe


1940

267,739 Miami-Dade
210,143 Duval
180,148 Hillsborough
159,249 Pinellas
 74,667 Escambia
 14,078 Monroe
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 02:47:43 PM
Whole county populations do exist.  One can see that "Duval" County led the state for quite some time.  However, FL itself was never really an important state.  I'd argue population aside and entertainment value aside, FL still isn't an important state.  So being the "hub" of a non-important state makes everything a moot point.

Jax from 1870-1930 was never the size of a lot of cities across the south.  And it's true that many other cities had something similar to the "Row".  In fact, I'd argue that The Row wasn't the only street of its kind even within Jacksonville.  All of this is somehow irrelevant to the thread.

Great points. Thanks for getting the thread back on track.

Quote
The Row was a beautiful street that we now really no longer have to the same effect, though I'd argue, those old wooden-framed mansions probably aren't as high and best use as what we have now, which is high rise residential, a beautiful park, apartments, retail, etc.  The area today could certainly be cleaned up, densified, and made more pleasant, but it's about the most photogenic urban nook in the city today and is a nice place to live.

As the city grows, questions will need to be asked of current density levels maintained by restored 1910s/1920s houses/mansions.  I was looking at 2010 Census.  Census tracts in Avondale and Riverside are really NOT dense at all.  3-5,000 ppsm.  That's hardly enough to really support a thriving urban walkable neighborhood and streetcar.  What will we want to do going forward because I'd argue that if we want to spend $100M+ to put streetcar through Avondale, it will all be a waste at current density levels, which don't support strong ridership (not that there's even that much traffic or lack of parking either, so why would people ditch their Mercedes and Lexuses?).

I do wish the Row were better documented and I wish I could find my book on the Cummers, which had lots of pictures.

Right now, there are no plans for a streetcar in Avondale. A streetcar would make more economic sense initially running from Park & King, through DT and into one of the inner Northside neighborhoods. This why, it would hit some decent existing popular destinations (ex. Five Points, St. Vincents, UF Health, Riverside Avenue--Brooklyn, etc.) while also penetrating areas (like LaVilla, Sugar Hill, Brooklyn, DT, etc.)  where infill and higher density may be more desired. As for other strips like the Row in early Jacksonville, Main Street and Boulevard in Springfield would certainly be on the list.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 10, 2014, 03:24:24 PM
Just a couple of points that I find interesting, prior to the War of Northern Aggression, we dominated the GNP with agriculture dollars, northern industry just wasn't that far developed. In the Mexican American War, over 75% of all soldiers were from the south (something that would have a telling effect during the war with the north). After the War, we still put substantial numbers on the battlefield, during the Spanish American War, Jacksonville and Tampa played staring roles in both. In fact 'The Army of Tennessee,' my Great Grandfathers army became the only 'enemy' army in history to be revived by a foreign power (the USA) and sent into battle in Cuba. By WWI the effects of northern industrialization had changed the landscape of both manpower and supply. Following the depression and the devastating Dust Bowl in Texas-South Dakota, the value of farms and farming bottomed out. Largely rural states from Oklahoma to Florida found themselves on the rocks. Any history of WWII reads more like a history of men from the Bronx then it does men from America, by this time the entire south was in the shadow of todays Rust Belt. Any chance we had at staying on LA's tail died with the collapse of the Great Florida Boom in 1926 and the subsequent Great Depression. During WWII we built just under 100 transport and tanker ships for the war effort, the Oakland California area built 1,400. The numbers in LA, NY, NH etc.. all similar.

Consolidation of the City-County Government is not the same thing as a city annexing a neighboring community. Every city in the country has probably gone through a number of annexations, so did Jax, but Consolidation was a whole new direction. I personally feel it has in the long-term both simplified things and held us back through the lack of choice for new residents and industry. We are just now large enough to enjoy that freedom with spillover into the neighboring counties. Arguably this is something that could have been done long ago with a fully independent South Jacksonville, Mandarin, etc.

Lake you mentioned Cedar Key being bypassed, I agree but if there was ever a city in Florida that should have leaped its natural harbor and become a metropolitan area its Cedar Key. They boasted a terminus of the first true trunkline railroad in the state. The cedar lumber industry sent them into the stratosphere after the Un-Civil War. Pencils nationwide, National, Foley etc... were all made in Cedar Key. Sponge fleets docked at the wharves along with ocean going vessels from throughout the globe. Commercial fishing was once and still is a huge part of the economy there. Discovery of the Cedar Key oil field and working oil wells were just one more feather in their caps. Tourism was always strong too considering their size. Their mistake was not shepherding their resources and clear cutting the cedar and then the cypress to the point where rail traffic fell off. Not keeping up with the port and allowing that business to drift to Tampa, Panama City or Pensacola was also disastrous. In the end they lost the railroad too. Today, Cedar Key is the land that time forgot, forever locked in 1890-1920, at the end of a long two lane highway. They have however maintained their charm, as many Jimmy Buffett fans can tell you he might live in the Florida Keys (down south) but he knows where to go to write his songs... CEDAR KEY.

As for our own Row? I remember the streetcar tracks in the neighborhood on Edison, and that TU building didn't take out a wharf or warehouse, it was the Jacksonville Traction Company's Power House!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at122104PM_zps9e353983.png)
Cedar Key

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at121726PM_zps92be86dd.png)
Steamship Wharves

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at121752PM_zps8cb8b5a1.png)
Cedar Key Fiber

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at123621PM_zps29a00f70.png)
Cedar Key Harbor

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at121820PM_zps7e261ffe.png)
Flanders Pencils

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at121907PM_zpsa90235a4.png)
Standard Pencils

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at121926PM_zpsa49123b4.png)
Standard Mill

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at124059PM_zps5b9ef35e.png)
Cedar Key Oil Number One or Two

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-05-10at124443PM_zps018ff262.png)
Cedar Key Oil Today.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 03:25:39 PM
Just pointing out that the numbers simply arent accurate, for all of the reasons above listed.  They reflect different geographical areas, dont count non resident residents, and dont count black people or native americans---both of which were pretty important to the history and development of the city.

Ok. The county numbers recently posted explain the same thing. The census has counted all black people and native americans since 1890.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: thelakelander on May 10, 2014, 03:46:19 PM
Just pointing out that the numbers simply arent accurate, for all of the reasons above listed.  They reflect different geographical areas, dont count non resident residents, and dont count black people or native americans---both of which were pretty important to the history and development of the city.

Ok. The county numbers recently posted explain the same thing. The census has counted all black people and native americans since 1890.

Well actually, they continued on counting native americans separately until the 1960s for what its worth.

and considering that the first set of numbers shows key west as more populous than Jville and the second set shows Duval as always having more people than all four counties with the exception of the decade after the Great Fire, Im not sure how you think that they show the same thing?
Key West is a city on an island and most of Monroe County is Everglades. Both sets of numbers show that there was never one clear leader (city or city+suburbs or neighboring cities) that was head and shoulders above others 100 years ago....which was the point I was attempting to make. Great pics, BTW.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 10, 2014, 09:07:52 PM
Here you go Lake, one for the book, on the row...

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BOOK%20JAX%20STREETCARS/ScreenShot2014-05-10at85511PM_zps3751982c.png)
September 6, 1906. Transit Journal