The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Urban Neighborhoods => San Marco => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on April 22, 2014, 03:00:02 AM

Title: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on April 22, 2014, 03:00:02 AM
Lost Jacksonville: Times Square

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3190956257_29vH5Fv-M.jpg)

San Marco would not be what it is today without the unique ambiance and sense of place of San Marco Square. Unfortunately, Jacksonville's true identity and heritage is in danger of being lost forever as time continues to move on. With that in mind, here is a brief look back at the rise and abrupt fall of San Marco Square's Atlantic Boulevard counterpart: Times Square.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-apr-lost-jacksonville-times-square
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Noone on April 22, 2014, 04:16:55 AM
Thanks again for the history lesson.
LOST Jacksonville!
Can't wait for my autographed copy.
Jacksonville city council meeting tonight.
2014-190 is ready for a Jacksonville city council vote.
Can't wait to share that with the commissioners of FIND.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: billy on April 22, 2014, 07:54:18 AM
Great article.
So the Times Square Hardware on University (now demolished),
was not the original location?

What is the "Yellow Monster" referred to in the article?
Looking forward to the book.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: acme54321 on April 22, 2014, 08:05:05 AM
What is the "Yellow Monster" referred to in the article?
Looking forward to the book.

The original Acosta bridge.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1271-acostabridge-1987.jpg)
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: jaxlore on April 22, 2014, 09:05:15 AM
very cool.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 22, 2014, 09:36:21 AM
This is sad. If the area still stood, it would be only a half mile from my house. Fortunately I still have the st nick town center area, for now.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: pierre on April 22, 2014, 09:44:40 AM
I echo the last two comments.

Cool and sad.

And like alot of things, Jacksonville is a city with a lot of "could have" and "should have". This is another example.

I appreciate all the historical articles written on this site. But damn if they aren't somewhat depressing also.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: IrvAdams on April 22, 2014, 09:48:40 AM
Great article.
So the Times Square Hardware on University (now demolished),
was not the original location?

What is the "Yellow Monster" referred to in the article?
Looking forward to the book.

It's still a cool area. As I was reading it, I also thought the Times-Square Hardware was part of the square. It's not the original building, I guess. Mudville Grill building is kinda interesting looking - it looks old.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: IrvAdams on April 22, 2014, 09:56:10 AM
I echo the last two comments.

Cool and sad.

And like alot of things, Jacksonville is a city with a lot of "could have" and "should have". This is another example.

I appreciate all the historical articles written on this site. But damn if they aren't somewhat depressing also.

Especially for a native like myself who remembers some of this stuff. Jax grew quickly and in jerky movements, but once it broke containment from "between the rivers" (Trout and St. Johns) it has been out of control and has lost a lot of character, especially with the expressway system ripping out vital neighborhoods.

I think of the differences between us and a city like Savannah that the expressway(s) did not pass through - their historical character is almost intact. Preservation is gospel in that town.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: duvaldude08 on April 22, 2014, 10:26:00 AM
Are there any actual photos of how they entire area looked at the time??
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Tacachale on April 22, 2014, 12:21:02 PM
Great history. Fortunately in this case, San Marco and St. Nicholas have other walkable commercial areas that survive (and are looking better than they have in a long time). I heard a great quote, I think from the mayor of Oklahoma City, something to the effect of "we've built great cities - if you happen to be a car."

Really looking forward to Lost Jacksonville. But what I'd really like to see is a book on our currently existing neighborhoods and districts. Good information on even some of our coolest areas, 5 Points, Eastside, Miramar, etc. is actually pretty hard to come by. If only we knew knew someone...
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: tufsu1 on April 22, 2014, 02:10:17 PM
can't wait for the book!
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: finehoe on April 22, 2014, 02:27:34 PM
But what I'd really like to see is a book on our currently existing neighborhoods and districts.

Who needs a book when you have metrojacksonville.com?
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: bencrix on April 22, 2014, 02:39:37 PM
Quote
Really looking forward to Lost Jacksonville. But what I'd really like to see is a book on our currently existing neighborhoods and districts. Good information on even some of our coolest areas, 5 Points, Eastside, Miramar, etc. is actually pretty hard to come by. If only we knew knew someone...

Agreed. A book on the history / design / function of our core neighborhoods would be great. Sort of a "Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage" but from a planning perspective (land use, social / culture history, etc.)
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: acme54321 on April 23, 2014, 06:05:14 AM
(http://s18.postimg.org/untqz5qc9/12035_1952_2_152_3.png)
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2014, 06:22:18 AM
^Nice. What source did you get that aerial from?  It may be something I can utilize for all of the districts and neighborhoods I'm researching.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2014, 06:24:35 AM
I echo the last two comments.

Cool and sad.

And like alot of things, Jacksonville is a city with a lot of "could have" and "should have". This is another example.

I appreciate all the historical articles written on this site. But damn if they aren't somewhat depressing also.

My hope is to expose some of Jacksonville's lost historical identity in the process. Seeing some things that no longer exists can hurt but it also can be a huge help in moving forward.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2014, 06:35:45 AM
Are there any actual photos of how they entire area looked at the time??

I've found two so far. Neither is exactly what I'm looking for because one is a block or so, south on Philips and the other is a super close up.  Here's one of Biser's Restaurant from Vintage Jacksonville.com:

(http://vintagejacksonville.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/007473web.png)
http://vintagejacksonville.net/page/8/

You'll notice a side view of one Times Square building in the background, behind the street banner in the distance.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2014, 06:36:56 AM
Really looking forward to Lost Jacksonville. But what I'd really like to see is a book on our currently existing neighborhoods and districts. Good information on even some of our coolest areas, 5 Points, Eastside, Miramar, etc. is actually pretty hard to come by. If only we knew knew someone...

It's in the plans. I'm just getting warmed up!
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: acme54321 on April 23, 2014, 07:00:00 AM
^Nice. What source did you get that aerial from?  It may be something I can utilize for all of the districts and neighborhoods I'm researching.

UF's historical aerial images archive.  It's a little harder to navigate than historicaerials.com but has older photography, lots of WWII vintage photos.  It also has a lot of images from less populated areas that you normally wouldnt find.

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/aerials/map
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: acme54321 on April 23, 2014, 07:02:59 AM
Are there any actual photos of how they entire area looked at the time??

I've found two so far. Neither is exactly what I'm looking for because one is a block or so, south on Philips and a close up.  Here's one of Biser's Restaurant from Vintage Jacksonville.com:

(http://vintagejacksonville.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/007473web.png)
http://vintagejacksonville.net/page/8/

You'll notice a side view of one Times Square building in the background, behind the street banner in the distance.

It's hard to picture that basically all of the vehicular traffic up and down the east coast of Florida started on that little road.  Things have surely changed.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: IrvAdams on April 23, 2014, 08:52:06 AM
^^ Check out the street sign that says 'Mitchell'; it is made of a concrete block. Those used to be everywhere. Occasionally you see them now in a scrap yard (like Burkhalter's Wrecking on the Northside). I even saw one used as a car stop at a public park;, it was mostly unreadable, but definitely an old street sign.

Another historical tidbit you can still find in scrap yards (or on the Internet from a private collection) are some of the old street bricks used to pave roads back in the day. They are bigger than modern red bricks, and often had raised lettering showing where they were kilned. We have a few in our garden at home.

Oh man this stuff is nostalgic - much thanks!
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: jcjohnpaint on April 23, 2014, 09:11:10 AM
Amazing article.  I had no idea this ever existed. 
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2014, 09:35:03 AM
A similar district was located between Brooklyn and Five Points, along the Edison Street streetcar line to Lackawanna. That one was taken out for the I-10/I-95 interchange.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 23, 2014, 11:54:36 AM
But what I'd really like to see is a book on our currently existing neighborhoods and districts.

Who needs a book when you have metrojacksonville.com?

We do! We have to eat... LOL!  ;)

Streetcars of NE Florida is in the works too.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 23, 2014, 02:06:54 PM
I remember going to the Edison location as a kid with my dad, there were streetcar tracks and switches all the heck over the place. Later research would show that the Streetcar's Edison Avenue-Seaboard-Lackawanna Shops line was intersected by the Union Terminal Loop at Myrtle and Edison, then just a block west, again by the Murray Hill Line at Dellwood and Edison. I want to say the original name of Dellwood was Banana, and at least one reference I saw to Edison called it 'Electric', maybe the name or maybe a reference to the railway. Those corners were full of businesses not unlike those at the corner of Dellwood and Margaret. It appears that at each jog in the line the Jacksonville Traction Company inspired the building of mixed use projects, stores and apartments. The Bold Bean coffee shop on Stockton is yet another jog in this same Murray Hill Car Line. Running from Edison-Dellwood-Margaret-Myra-Stockton-College-Plymouth-Edgewood. They might have been in a center median on Stockton and on Plymouth they really were alongside the road, between the street and the railroad. The entire Ortega Traction Company line and the Duval Traction Company line to the base out on Black Point was side-of-the-road running.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 23, 2014, 02:11:04 PM
I think of the differences between us and a city like Savannah that the expressway(s) did not pass through - their historical character is almost intact. Preservation is gospel in that town.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at15824PM_zpse553cdb5.png)

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at15742PM_zps5c5b3d06.png)

Except that is exactly what Savannah did to their grand old Savannah Union Station when I-16 came to town. Demolished for a highway...  At least Jacksonville saved Jacksonville Terminal.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: finehoe on April 23, 2014, 02:27:30 PM
^^ Check out the street sign that says 'Mitchell'; it is made of a concrete block. Those used to be everywhere.

Thanks for pointing that out!  I remember these down at the beach when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Tacachale on April 23, 2014, 02:40:28 PM
Me too. I always liked them.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on April 23, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
At least Jax did something right in preserving our train station.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 23, 2014, 04:34:37 PM
True, those concrete signs were a Jacksonville standard furnishing, I too remember them well in Ortega, Fairfax, 5-Points etc... This is why I like the 'new' face of Laura Street and the decorative concrete signs, a throwback to our heritage that the younger ones might have missed. There are still a few around and I'll see one every now and then.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at34216PM_zpsae9c85ef.png)

As for Jacksonville Terminal, we owe the city big for that one...


(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at32341PM_zps695e3511.png)
AUGUSTA

Augusta Union... Razed...1972...One of the most exquisite buildings in the South
Atlanta Union.....Razed...1972
Atlanta Terminal..Razed....1972...almost immediately regretted and a 'new project planned' ever since
Birmingham Terminal..Razed...1969
Charlotte Southern....Razed....1962...site of current Greyhound Station
Chattanooga Union..Razed (I witnessed that sadly) ...1970's?
Savannah Union....Razed....1963
Wilmington...........Razed...1970
Memphis Union......Razed...1969

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at32602PM_zpsa0622589.png)
HOUSTON

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at40551PM_zpsd064820d.png)
FORT WORTH TEXAS PACIFIC

Memphis....Central Station...in Amtrak..use
Charlotte...Seaboard.... Building survives
Mobile....Metro Transit Offices
Tampa...Union Station restored...in Amtrak use (could be threatened by HSR)
Richmond Main Street...National Landmark
Richmond Broad Street....Science Museum of VA
Jacksonville...Convention Center
Raleigh....Office Building
Charleston Union...burned 1947
Houston Union..Interesting repurpose with a 'lean to' ball park
Dallas Union...Beautifully Restored to active Amtrak, Light Rail and Commuter Rail use.
Fort Worth......Santa Fe Union.... Repurposed event center
Fort Worth......Texas Pacific Station....Condos with attached Commuter Rail.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at32459PM_zpsf24dddd8.png)
BIRMINGHAM

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2014-04-23at41309PM_zpsfe9d7b9f.png)
MEMPHIS

Jacksonville Traction Company served Times Square via the South Jacksonville Municipal Railways, then along the FEC RY to St. Nicholas, Spring Glen and Hogan.
Title: Re: Lost Jacksonville: Times Square
Post by: mtraininjax on April 24, 2014, 01:29:18 AM
I knew that if someone mentioned Rail, somehow the thread could be overtaken. Eh.....

Back to the thread, it is a darn shame that I-95, that vestige that moves people from the southside to downtown, was built on top of Times Square. Some of the vibrancy still remains along Phillips hwy with the old motels still there, some shops along Atlantic the link between St. Nicholas and San Marco. Old Kings Road has found new owners of buildings and reuse. But this all goes back to the neighborhood, if it remains strong, people will setup storefronts and support them.

A shame that the FDOT purchased and razed all those homes for the Overland project, all that does is make a nicer commute for southsiders, but destroys more bits and pieces of neighborhoods, which probably will never come back, now that the noise will be far worse!