The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on April 29, 2008, 05:00:00 AM

Title: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on April 29, 2008, 05:00:00 AM
The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4613-courthouserendering3.jpg)

After nearly a decade of setbacks, the Jacksonville City Council recently approved plans to move forward with the construction of a $350 million county courthouse complex.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/774
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: jeh1980 on April 29, 2008, 05:34:42 AM
I'm glad that this courthouse is finally moving forward. Let it come quickly! :)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 08:24:31 AM
I wonder what will happen to the half of two blocks remaining on the northside of Adams Street?  Hopefully, it becomes something a little more than a blank patch of grass or surface parking lot.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Beloki on April 29, 2008, 08:40:33 AM
MMM, I'm not totally convinced about the design.. For me personally it depends on whats going to be surrounding the courthouse... :'(   Lets say the jury is still out  :D
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 29, 2008, 08:50:57 AM
I do like that they rerouted Monroe to curve around the front of the building thereby keeping the street grid better intact.  Still, this thing could have easitly taken up a single block.....



Quote
I wonder what will happen to the half of two blocks remaining on the northside of Adams Street?  Hopefully, it becomes something a little more than a blank patch of grass or surface parking lot.

I'm sure those patches will be filled with an "urban" grass and perhaps a couple statues or art.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: jmccharen on April 29, 2008, 09:00:50 AM
We'll plant y'all some squash and collards on those empty lots. Don't worry. Maybe some mulberries too.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: tufsu1 on April 29, 2008, 09:01:42 AM
A similar re-routing of Church Street was done a few years ago....and now there is a terrific pocket park behind the Episcopal Cathedral....and the curvge made for a more interesting site plan for the Parks @ Cathedral townhomes.

Also, for those who worry that this is not "urban" enough....take a look at the recent posts from Lakelander about Toronto's courthouse.....that complex takes up several blocks and is set back quite a bit....what they did to make it work was create a public plaza space in front of the courthouse....the same could be done here over time!
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: heights unknown on April 29, 2008, 09:02:12 AM
I don't like the design, I don't like that it's taking up a thousand city blocks, but I do like the fact that it's finally moving forward!  Just hope some towers or other crucial development springs up around that area.  Bay Street station won't be that far away, so I hope that between the two developments, it will ignite a spark in that section of downtown and Lavilla/Brooklyn.

Heights Unknown
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 29, 2008, 09:31:13 AM
I still think it's about as good a match for Jacksonville as a 20 story Japanese temple. Come on Lake what will call this? Parthenon-on-LSD? Explosion in a pillar factory? Mayberry on Steroids? How about Revised Modern Gothic-Greek-Colonial-Landfill-Revival?  

Ocklawaha
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 09:35:56 AM
I just call it a travesty.  When I think of the original design that withered and died on the vine... and I look at this monstrosity... I am very sad.

I better edit to ad: I'm glad it's moving along -- I just think it's ugly as sin.  Maybe it will look better built.  But the renderings are nothing to get excited about at all.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 09:46:42 AM
Maybe the Peyton stewardship of The City just needed some maturation to get its wings under it.

Anyways, the excitement and energy downtown is palpable.

You can feel that there is something going on again, and the chatter and faces over coffee are much brighter.

You know what, considering that the Mayor's office is at most an eight year term, it is completely unacceptable to give them five years to get going.  This is ridiculous.

As far as the courthouse, it's about time he stopped blaming Delaney for this.  While I don't think it was Delaney's fault, I have no problem with this guy taking six months or so to get his feet wet.  I know nothing about construction, and if you gave me that project the same time Peyton took office, we would have private construction on the river right now.

(To be honest, I probably would have hired Sam Mousa on day 1 to deal with it)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Driven1 on April 29, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
and the chatter and faces over coffee are much brighter.

LOL!  classic.  where can i see this??  i'm willing to pay a quarter to watch the brighter faces drinking coffee.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: stephenc on April 29, 2008, 10:06:44 AM
Im just glad it getting done. Let's put this ugly issue behined us and getting rolling.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
A similar re-routing of Church Street was done a few years ago....and now there is a terrific pocket park behind the Episcopal Cathedral....and the curvge made for a more interesting site plan for the Parks @ Cathedral townhomes.

Also, for those who worry that this is not "urban" enough....take a look at the recent posts from Lakelander about Toronto's courthouse.....that complex takes up several blocks and is set back quite a bit....what they did to make it work was create a public plaza space in front of the courthouse....the same could be done here over time!

Here's a few more images of that Toronto City Hall plaza area.  Its a pretty simple design that was built on the top of a two block underground parking garage.  It basically includes public restroom facilities, a concrete plaza, a little green space and a huge water fountain.  The plaza is used for special events and for food vendors during the day.  The fountain becomes a public outdoor ice skating rink in the winter.  The buildings surrounding it are pretty urban and feature a mix of uses.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-6.jpg)
the green spaces feature a few trees and monuments, such as this statue of Winston Churchill.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-4.jpg)
From the air, city hall is designed to resemble God's hands holding Earth.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-3.jpg)
The concrete plaza is used for vendor space.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-2.jpg)
the fountain, looking back at the original city hall building across the street.  The two towers in the background are constructed on top of a large mall that sits on the same block as the old city hall.

Sidewalks and buildings surrounding city hall's plaza

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-1.jpg)
If you like cheap food served quick, the sidewalks surrounding the plaza is a zoo during lunch time on the weekdays.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-8.jpg)
Streetcar lines run on two sides of the courthouse property.  The streetcars appear to be a lot more popular then the city buses, which for the most part were empty.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-7.jpg)
the old city hall comes right up against the sidewalks.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-9.jpg)
there's also a college across the street.  The school worked with a developer who added big box retail stores at street level.


Quote
We'll plant y'all some squash and collards on those empty lots. Don't worry. Maybe some mulberries too.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/toronto-5.jpg)

This is actually a few blocks away, but I figured I'd post it for jmccharen.  A few more community gardens in the urban core would not hurt either.

If the land surrounding the courthouse site turns out like this, I won't complain.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 10:25:43 AM
If the land surrounding the courthouse site turns out like this, I won't complain.
My friend, that's an awfully big "if."  The good news is that we'll be well into the next administration when those decisions will be made (or certainly by the time they're implemented).  And I agree -- if we can look at some best practices from other cities and apply them to the courthouse campus and surrounding areas, that would go a long way to making this project palatable.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 10:26:53 AM
Paul Crawford offered some detail about the desire to use eternal materials like granite and marble and stone, something that would last, which doesnt really jibe up to the renderings.

Architecture preferences aside (for example, I would have loved to see a tower on one block and the rest of the land sold back to the private sector), the most important thing how this bull in a china shop integrates with its surroundings, enabling it to spur development around it that doesn't turn this whole side of downtown into a dead zone at night and on the weekends.  Toronto's City Hall's grounds have been successful at attracting people to the area around the clock.  Crawford and Co's priorities should be focused here, imo, as opposed to worrying about whether the building or others near it are designed with natural building materials or not.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 10:30:36 AM
If the land surrounding the courthouse site turns out like this, I won't complain.
My friend, that's an awfully big "if."  The good news is that we'll be well into the next administration when those decisions will be made (or certainly by the time they're implemented).  And I agree -- if we can look at some best practices from other cities and apply them to the courthouse campus and surrounding areas, that would go a long way to making this project palatable.

Its definately a big IF and based on the history of those calling the shots, its probably unrealistic to think they are ready to step up or even understand the challenge at hand.  In any event, the construction timeline tells me that these decisions will have to be made before the current administration leaves office.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 10:33:22 AM
You could be right.  However, I typically expect some timeline drift on a project of this scale.  But of anyone paying attention, you'd know better than me.  Keep us posted on ways we can influence the decision-making...
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 10:33:30 AM
You probably wouldnt have lost him on day 17 or something in the first place either.

Correct - you know, I've never met the man, but his results speak for themselves.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: konstantconsumer on April 29, 2008, 10:46:04 AM
i would prefer that the site size was reduced and the courthouse was more vertical, but at this point i'm just happy that it's being done.  the current courthouse is a real piece, and it really looked like it was here to stay for a while.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 11:04:46 AM
Looks like another KBJ mediocrity will be inflicted on our downtown.  Let's be real.  This design is seriously postmodern ugly.  If you want a neo-classical look, do neo-classical right.  Otherwise, just make it full on brutalist or something.  Anyway, this is very disappointing.  I cant wait to see this every day.   :(
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 11:06:51 AM
BTW, had Peyton stuck with the far more attractive Cannon design, the Courthouse would now be finished and would have been built cheaper than the garbage he is now peddling.  And, I can say this because I did so at the time.  This is really terrible.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Charleston native on April 29, 2008, 11:07:11 AM
Wow, uh, I thought many of you guys would like the design. I like it, myself. It looks like a larger version of some of the buildings in my hometown...and isn't that what some of you wanted in downtown? This building will add some traditional architecture to the city, and I believed many of you here advocated that.

The courthouse will indeed breathe new life into downtown, and I'm looking forward to seeing it when it's finished.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 11:08:37 AM
The problem is that it isnt traditional architecture.  It is a caricature of traditional architecture. 
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 11:22:21 AM
The problem is that it isnt traditional architecture.  It is a caricature of traditional architecture. 
Exactly!  Listen to the lawyers.  We have to work in the thing. :)  And we all have to look at it.  The Cannon design would have been far superior.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 11:25:26 AM
Quote
Wow, uh, I thought many of you guys would like the design. I like it, myself. It looks like a larger version of some of the buildings in my hometown...and isn't that what some of you wanted in downtown? This building will add some traditional architecture to the city, and I believed many of you here advocated that.

I'm not a huge fan of making new structures mimic design styles of an era gone by, because today's mass produced building materials make the structures look cheap, imo.  This is why preservation is important.  However, I'm more concerned with how buildings fit into the urban grid and stimulate foot traffic between them and the surrounding areas.

Here's a quick look at the courthouse designs of yesteryear.

Peyton's first courthouse
(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/110504/47983_400.jpg)
just about anything is an improvement over this one.


Spillis Candela DMJM with Porphyrios Associates
665,200 sq ft
(http://jacksonville.com/images/062602/met_spicourthouse3_145.jpg)
This one took out the BellSouth communications tower.


Rink Reynolds Diamond Fisher Wilson
704,510 sq ft
(http://jacksonville.com/images/062602/met_rrdcourthouse1_144.jpg)


KBJ Architects, Inc.
695,267 sq ft
(http://jacksonville.com/images/062602/met_kbjcourthouse2_140.jpg)
This one looked much better then the one, currently slated for construction.


Cannon Design
734,682 sq ft
(http://apps1.coj.net/competition/courthouse_lg_images/cannon_model_1.jpg)
This is the one Peyton killed when the price rose to $263 million.

Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 11:35:00 AM
Cannon Design
734,682 sq ft
(http://apps1.coj.net/competition/courthouse_lg_images/cannon_model_1.jpg)
This is the one Peyton killed when the price rose to $263 million.

Well it's certainly a good thing he did that.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 11:41:38 AM
Cannon Design
734,682 sq ft
(http://apps1.coj.net/competition/courthouse_lg_images/cannon_model_1.jpg)
This is the one Peyton killed when the price rose to $263 million.

Well it's certainly a good thing he did that.

I admit, while I'm not impressed with the new design, the sprawling layout is better oriented than Cannon's.  For example, Monroe and Pearl Streets both remain open and the remaining blocks along Adams can become decent urban spaces with good urban planning.  If you look closely, the Cannon design had a fenced yard along Adams and surface parking on the west side.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 29, 2008, 11:44:01 AM
In your opinion, does the new design leave room for future expansions?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 11:48:17 AM
Yes. On the one remaining block of land.  However, the spread out nature of the design kills the possibility of selling any of the remaining courthouse property to the private sector, putting them back on the tax rolls and reducing the overall cost of the project on John Q. Taxpayer.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Charleston native on April 29, 2008, 12:45:02 PM
Thanks for putting up those other renderings, lake. Now I understand why you guys are disappointed with the current design. The Cannon, KBJ, and Rink Reynolds designs are indeed much better than the currently planned one. Is there anyway to revert to those earlier designs, or is this approved one pretty much "set in stone"?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 12:52:54 PM
I personally thought that none of the four had any urban design sense to them at all (they all closed Monroe St), but if I had to pick my favorite, it would be the KBJ one (I think the world just stopped spinning as I typed that).
Title: I FOUND IT! WOW!
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 29, 2008, 02:37:44 PM
Hey y'all, I finally figured out our new Courthouse style!

It's called "NEW GERMANIA" and it comes from the redesign of Berlin as the new World Capitol by Adolph Hitler. YA PEYTON IS DER SUPERMAYOR! "Super-duper...Super Mayor"

(http://static.flickr.com/3268/2360760451_f36da60302.jpg)
Completely void of life forms, this is Hitlers New Germania model of Berlin, say isn't that our Courthouse?


Ocklawaha  
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Matt on April 29, 2008, 03:19:15 PM
i dont find the design so hideous as the layout. were they trying to just waste two blocks? the minimal spillover could be made up by what, one or two more stories? i suppose they just couldnt allow such a grand building not to have a lawn to view it from across...and then the rerouting of the street. no no this is not good at all. but hey, maybe this will become a great center of downtown one day as lavilla refills and downtown continues to grow....i can't wait.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Ocklawaha on April 29, 2008, 03:27:27 PM
Yes Stephen, you get the gold ring... Little Albert Speer, the "good Nazi" , his buddy Adolph and his dog SPOT. Most folks don't know that Hitler was quite a decent artist in his own right. Still fewer realize the famous VW beatle has his sketch work in it's design! DATS IT! Das offizielle Personalauto des Duval Landgericht-Hauses.

When looking back over the Courthouse thread tune in the link below, it really makes the Courthouse lght right up. Just click the link and minimize it, then go and scroll through the posted photos. It's really a trip!

http://www.last.fm/music/Richard+Wagner/_/Ride+of+the+Valkyries?autostart

Let's not forget little Richard Wagner! In Norse mythology the Valkyries were the "choosers of the slain", not a bad theme song for a Courthouse.


Ocklawaha
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: EP on April 29, 2008, 03:57:22 PM
I think we need to put this in perspective by looking at the end users.  Why should we build such a nice building for lawyers and criminals?  I personally don't care for either...
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 04:06:31 PM
I think we need to put this in perspective by looking at the end users.  Why should we build such a nice building for lawyers and criminals?  I personally don't care for either...

Or people going to get their marriage license, or people going to record their deed, or people going to deal with a probate matter, or people going to get a deadbeat tenant evicted, or people going to get child support for their kids, or people going to press their civil rights in court, or people called down for jury duty, or people going...

You're right!  I don't care for any of those people.  Oh wait... that's everyone.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 04:42:23 PM
There is a difference between a double-wide trailer, a functional, no-frills building, and a taj mahal.  We have chosen option 3
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 05:02:24 PM
No.  We could have chosen option #3 if we'd kept the Cannon design on track.

We're now getting #2 for a cost in excess of #3.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2008, 05:14:14 PM
No.  We could have chosen option #3 if we'd kept the Cannon design on track.

We're now getting #2 for a cost in excess of #3.

Are you honestly saying that this design is a no-frills design?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 05:19:39 PM
Yes.  It looks like something that should contain an ice-skating rink on Phillips Highway.  To me.  This is subjective stuff.  I'm just comparing it to what was possible with the old Cannon or even earlier KBJ design.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 05:26:35 PM
I mean... okay... it has some character with the columns.  But it's no taj mahal.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 05:43:48 PM
Compared to the earlier versions, its not "no-frills".  Its a bad attempt of coming up with a taj mahal type look, that will cost taxpayers a taj mahal and a half.  Quite frankly, KBJ's earlier version was 100% better then what's currently on the table.  However, given that the plans are still a work in process, it may be safe to assume that the look we see today, may not be the one that actually rises in the end.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 05:49:43 PM
This whole process has been so flawed.  There's a part of me that wishes stephendare had been right when he told us the whole courthouse project was dead.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 06:48:26 PM
Quote
Wow, uh, I thought many of you guys would like the design. I like it, myself. It looks like a larger version of some of the buildings in my hometown...and isn't that what some of you wanted in downtown? This building will add some traditional architecture to the city, and I believed many of you here advocated that.

I'm not a huge fan of making new structures mimic design styles of an era gone by, because today's mass produced building materials make the structures look cheap, imo.  This is why preservation is important.  However, I'm more concerned with how buildings fit into the urban grid and stimulate foot traffic between them and the surrounding areas.

I disagree.  The "traditional" architecture of the early 20th century itself hearkened back to earlier eras all the way back to antiquity.  Was such architecture "derivative"?  Well yes, but it was also attractive, popular, long lasting in terms of its appeal and stood the test of time.  The modern stuff becomes dated very quickly.

BTW, as for materials, while natural stone is best for these style buildings, builders can do wonders now days with cast stone provided they have the good sense to do it.  See this local company for more info:
http://www.pedroniscaststone.com/

This same company helped build much of Riverside/Avondale and other areas.  And, cast stone can last for 100 years or more if properly cared for.  It will be around long after these modern plastic monstrosities have disintegrated in the sun.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 06:50:01 PM
I think we need to put this in perspective by looking at the end users.  Why should we build such a nice building for lawyers and criminals?  I personally don't care for either...

Or people going to get their marriage license, or people going to record their deed, or people going to deal with a probate matter, or people going to get a deadbeat tenant evicted, or people going to get child support for their kids, or people going to press their civil rights in court, or people called down for jury duty, or people going...

You're right!  I don't care for any of those people.  Oh wait... that's everyone.

Excellent response, Jimmy.   :)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 06:53:45 PM
I personally thought that none of the four had any urban design sense to them at all (they all closed Monroe St), but if I had to pick my favorite, it would be the KBJ one (I think the world just stopped spinning as I typed that).

The courthouse is not supposed to be about urban connectivity.  I think y'all are too hung up on this.  Other parts of downtown should serve this purpose but the Courthouse has to have security and so forth so it will never be open and connected in this sense.  However, the purpose of having a grand courthouse is to have a structure will inspire civic pride, will hopefully inspire those who come to the Courthouse to understand the importance of what they are about to do and of our system, and it should be a monument to the community.  The current Courthouse says to me that Jacksonville as a community had bad taste in the 1950s, built things on the cheap and had very little foresight.  What do you want future generations and visitors to take away from our new Courthouse?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 06:56:44 PM
Compared to the earlier versions, its not "no-frills".  Its a bad attempt of coming up with a taj mahal type look, that will cost taxpayers a taj mahal and a half.  Quite frankly, KBJ's earlier version was 100% better then what's currently on the table.  However, given that the plans are still a work in process, it may be safe to assume that the look we see today, may not be the one that actually rises in the end.

The whole Ron Littlepage "Taj Mahal" language really annoys me.  This is the way people who have no civic pride and think small thoughts should be talking (although I know Lake is not this way).  In this city now, we should not be thinking small.  And Lake, a grand structure will be a draw to downtown in that some people will actually come down to see it, especially if it is very attractive.  Maybe I am unusual because of what I do but I often visit courthouses in other cities. 
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 29, 2008, 06:59:05 PM
BTW Jimmy, were you at the St Johns Town Center today?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2008, 07:12:18 PM
Maybe I am unusual because of what I do but I often visit courthouses in other cities. 
I do exactly the same thing.  I make it a point to see the Courthouse in any town I visit, as it often is a reflection of how the city sees itself.  For example, there is nothing so nice as visiting a small town that still has enough American pride in the concepts of justice, liberty, and freedom that they maintain their "Courthouse square" with care.  Even thoughtful modern cities who've built new Courthouses that far surpass what was once the standard take the care needed to show respect to the living, breathing, functioning symbol of our American heritage that a Courthouse embodies.  It's frustrating to read people who deride the Court and its function in our free society.

Sadly, no, I was not out shopping today.  It would have been a wonderful way to spend the day, given the great weather we're having!
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: heights unknown on April 29, 2008, 07:37:49 PM
My personal preference was the design by KBJ Architects.......that one is my favorite.  This new design (cannon is it?) is just too austere, nothing out of the ordinary, and doesn't fit in our downtown or in that area for that matter.  I wish they'd take all of the designs, re-look, and rechoose.

Heights Unknown
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: jeh1980 on April 29, 2008, 08:43:57 PM
Compared to the earlier versions, its not "no-frills".  Its a bad attempt of coming up with a taj mahal type look, that will cost taxpayers a taj mahal and a half.  Quite frankly, KBJ's earlier version was 100% better then what's currently on the table.  However, given that the plans are still a work in process, it may be safe to assume that the look we see today, may not be the one that actually rises in the end.
We all due respect, but I don't think that this design is all that bad...at least to me. I kind of liked it. But I see no "Taj Mahal" design anywhere. Of course, if I recall, the Taj Mahal is a lot more taller and a lot more different looking. In fact, I think it doesn't really matter how it is designed, just built it and get it over with!!! Thanks KBJ! Keep up the good work! 8)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 29, 2008, 10:02:26 PM
Heights, the lastest design was done by KBJ.  Cannon was let loose a few years ago.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 30, 2008, 12:10:29 AM
Sadly, no, I was not out shopping today.  It would have been a wonderful way to spend the day, given the great weather we're having!

I saw a car there with a Dont Tread On Me sticker and thought of your avatar. 

BTW, I wasnt really shopping (that made me sound pretty lazy, I guess).  I just had to pick up a suit at lunchtime.  Most of the time I was actually in Court.  It was a nice day though.   ;)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2008, 09:15:11 AM
Who designed the Library?  The buildings look very similar, IMO.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 09:40:28 AM
(http://media.philly.com/images/20070909_inq_hqjobs09z-a.JPG)

Robert Stern, the architect who designed Philly's Comcast Center (shown above) designed the library.  Architects aside, its City Hall (the client) that tells the architects the style they want.  Its obvious that city leaders want to recapture the image of grand public buildings the city destroyed over the years.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2008, 10:19:14 AM
The courthouse is not supposed to be about urban connectivity.  I think y'all are too hung up on this.  Other parts of downtown should serve this purpose but the Courthouse has to have security and so forth so it will never be open and connected in this sense.  However, the purpose of having a grand courthouse is to have a structure will inspire civic pride, will hopefully inspire those who come to the Courthouse to understand the importance of what they are about to do and of our system, and it should be a monument to the community.  The current Courthouse says to me that Jacksonville as a community had bad taste in the 1950s, built things on the cheap and had very little foresight.  What do you want future generations and visitors to take away from our new Courthouse?

I would agree that our current courthouse did not stand the test of time (not even close).  One of the things that I think is funny is something Delaney pointed out - it's the only courthouse I've ever seen where you have to take steps DOWN to get into it.

I also agree that a courthouse will do little to enhance urban connectivity - even if I got the exact building that I want.  With that said, I guess I have more of a problem with the thing having WAY too large of a footprint.  Since we need a courthouse, let's have it take up one square block.  You can make a very striking building take up one block - look at the Miami-Dade County Courthouse.  It takes up one block, and looks very nice and striking.  You look at it, and immediately know it's a courthouse.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: EP on April 30, 2008, 10:41:08 AM
I think we need to put this in perspective by looking at the end users.  Why should we build such a nice building for lawyers and criminals?  I personally don't care for either...

Or people going to get their marriage license, or people going to record their deed, or people going to deal with a probate matter, or people going to get a deadbeat tenant evicted, or people going to get child support for their kids, or people going to press their civil rights in court, or people called down for jury duty, or people going...

You're right!  I don't care for any of those people.  Oh wait... that's everyone.

I should have known that there were some lawyers on here.  My apologies. 
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 10:49:42 AM
I personally thought that none of the four had any urban design sense to them at all (they all closed Monroe St), but if I had to pick my favorite, it would be the KBJ one (I think the world just stopped spinning as I typed that).

The courthouse is not supposed to be about urban connectivity.  I think y'all are too hung up on this.  Other parts of downtown should serve this purpose but the Courthouse has to have security and so forth so it will never be open and connected in this sense.

I disagree 100%.  From an interior functional standpoint you have a point, but from a city who continues to stumble to form any resemblance of vibrancy in its core, ultimate connectivity should be a high priority with every single project that is constructed downtown, regardless of use.  If not, then we're better off sticking the thing in the Prime Osborn's parking lot, throwing direct I-95 on/off ramps into the parking garage so people can get in and out like we have done with the stadium.

This thing is going to bring in a ton of people to that area on a daily basis.  From an overall land planning standpoint, we would be fools to not attempt to set this thing up in a way where the surroundings can benefit the most from the traffic and potential additional private investment it will generate.  We've failed multiple times with this issue in the past (Municipal Stadium, Baseball Grounds, Veterans Memorial Arena, Metropolitan Park, the current courthouse, the Landing, FCCJ's campus, etc.) and now we once again have the opportunity to learn from our mistakes and do better.  However, to isolate this project in the sense that urban synergy and connectivity should not be a major concern only dooms us to make the same mistakes we made with the other projects mentioned above.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 11:00:16 AM
Compared to the earlier versions, its not "no-frills".  Its a bad attempt of coming up with a taj mahal type look, that will cost taxpayers a taj mahal and a half.  Quite frankly, KBJ's earlier version was 100% better then what's currently on the table.  However, given that the plans are still a work in process, it may be safe to assume that the look we see today, may not be the one that actually rises in the end.

The whole Ron Littlepage "Taj Mahal" language really annoys me.  This is the way people who have no civic pride and think small thoughts should be talking (although I know Lake is not this way).  In this city now, we should not be thinking small.  And Lake, a grand structure will be a draw to downtown in that some people will actually come down to see it, especially if it is very attractive.  Maybe I am unusual because of what I do but I often visit courthouses in other cities. 

My take is "Grand" does not equate to spending additional millions.  For example, we tossed $700k into an elevated pocket park on Main Street to "beautify the area".  The same exact thing could have accomplished with with a few pallets of grass (at grade) and trees around the perimeter of the property for less than $50k.  The cheaper option would have also gotten better use because of its flexibility.

With a competent design team and a little bit of common sense, I believe "Grand" can be done for a price that does not have to bankrupt the community.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Joe on April 30, 2008, 11:00:35 AM
^ Regarding not getting hung up on urban connectivity ...

Sure, it doesn't make sense for a courthouse to have street-level retail surrounding the building. However, this doesn't mean that a courthouse needs to create a giant "superblock" in the heart of downtown.

For example, compare the difference between City Hall and the Police Memorial Building on Bay street. Both are institutional buildings with high security needs, and honestly, they aren't all that different in terms of land use. However it's a thousand little things that make City Hall such an obviously better building.

And all the little things are simple and common sense things to do, if someone actually bothers to put care into a design.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2008, 11:02:51 AM
For example, compare the difference between City Hall and the FOP Building. Both are institutional buildings with high security needs, and honestly, they aren't all that different in terms of land use. However it's a thousand little things that make City Hall such an obviously better building.


I think you are referring to the Police Memorial Building, not the FOP (that's off of Beach Blvd).  Otherwise I think you make a good point.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Joe on April 30, 2008, 11:04:21 AM
^ Yup. Thanks, that's the one.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 11:46:03 AM
Nashville apparently gets the message.  The city recently took their county courthouse's 4 acre surface parking lot and converted it into a public square.  The space is set up to take advantage of courthouse foot traffic, while also giving downtown users an opportunity to use the public grounds on nights and weekends.

Quote
This page shines the spotlight on the construction of the Public Square Plaza adjacent to the Courthouse downtown between Woodland Street and James Robertson Parkway.

Situated on the Woodland Street side of the Courthouse just off the west bank of the Cumberland River, the Plaza will provide Nashvillians with a large pleasant green space downtown that will include a substantial lawn, an interactive fountain, light wells, trees, reflective pools, seating areas, and other amenities.

The new Public Square Plaza will be in compliance with the ADA, welcoming anyone and everyone who lives, works, or visits downtown Nashville. Begun in early 2004, the it is expected to be ready for the public to use and enjoy in mid-summer of 2006.

(http://www.nashville.gov/gsa/ADA/project-spotlight/images/public_square_plaza/publicsquarespotlightintro.jpg)

(http://www.nashville.gov/gsa/ADA/project-spotlight/images/public_square_plaza/highwide-39.jpg)

(http://greensource.construction.com/news/images/NPSCivic_Lawn-07-25-07.jpg)

(http://www.sylvanpark.org/public%20square.jpg)

(http://www.aia.org/aiarchitect/thisweek07/1102/1102d_tenn4square_b.jpg)

Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2008, 12:46:22 PM
Nashville apparently gets the message.  The city recently took their county courthouse's 4 acre surface parking lot and converted it into a public square.  The space is set up to take advantage of courthouse foot traffic, while also giving downtown users an opportunity to use the public grounds on nights and weekends.

Quote
This page shines the spotlight on the construction of the Public Square Plaza adjacent to the Courthouse downtown between Woodland Street and James Robertson Parkway.

Situated on the Woodland Street side of the Courthouse just off the west bank of the Cumberland River, the Plaza will provide Nashvillians with a large pleasant green space downtown that will include a substantial lawn, an interactive fountain, light wells, trees, reflective pools, seating areas, and other amenities.

The new Public Square Plaza will be in compliance with the ADA, welcoming anyone and everyone who lives, works, or visits downtown Nashville. Begun in early 2004, the it is expected to be ready for the public to use and enjoy in mid-summer of 2006.



The current desingn of our courthouse does exactly the same thing.  Personally Nashville's design is a much larger waste of space.  Because the plaza/park is elevated there is no possiblity for expansion.  Once their building is outgrown they'll likely have to start over.

I think we have a great example of a well planned courthouse 2 blocks over.  The Federal Courthouse is stately, modern, has public gathering space, and addresses the street (at least on the plaza side) and does this all on one single block.  Our new courthouse could do exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on April 30, 2008, 12:47:52 PM
Since we need a courthouse, let's have it take up one square block.  You can make a very striking building take up one block - look at the Miami-Dade County Courthouse.  It takes up one block, and looks very nice and striking.  You look at it, and immediately know it's a courthouse.

I would totally support a new Courthouse that looked like Miami's.   :)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2008, 12:51:36 PM
How is their design any different than ours?  Our design has public green space and frankly, a flat grassy area sporting some art or statues is much more "future friendly" than an elevated tierd courtyard with a grass patch in the middle.


(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4612-courthousesite.jpg)



(http://www.nashville.gov/gsa/ADA/project-spotlight/images/public_square_plaza/publicsquarespotlightintro.jpg)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 02:02:52 PM
Nashville apparently gets the message.  The city recently took their county courthouse's 4 acre surface parking lot and converted it into a public square.  The space is set up to take advantage of courthouse foot traffic, while also giving downtown users an opportunity to use the public grounds on nights and weekends.

Quote
This page shines the spotlight on the construction of the Public Square Plaza adjacent to the Courthouse downtown between Woodland Street and James Robertson Parkway.

Situated on the Woodland Street side of the Courthouse just off the west bank of the Cumberland River, the Plaza will provide Nashvillians with a large pleasant green space downtown that will include a substantial lawn, an interactive fountain, light wells, trees, reflective pools, seating areas, and other amenities.

The new Public Square Plaza will be in compliance with the ADA, welcoming anyone and everyone who lives, works, or visits downtown Nashville. Begun in early 2004, the it is expected to be ready for the public to use and enjoy in mid-summer of 2006.



The current desingn of our courthouse does exactly the same thing.  Personally Nashville's design is a much larger waste of space.  Because the plaza/park is elevated there is no possiblity for expansion.  Once their building is outgrown they'll likely have to start over.

You're seeing my view towards the our courthouse.  For years I've advocated consolidating the thing to one or two blocks and selling the remaining blocks.  I've come to the realization that, that's not going to happen and that the city will waste the potential of returning land on that site back to the private sector.

In the effort of turning an expensive lemon into lemonade, my focus is now on what happens with the two half blocks left, north of Adams.  Most likely, its going to become a greenspace, so my hope/focus is that we avoid a repeat of what happened on Main Street and create a true space that utilizes the courthouse's traffic and that the entire community can use on a round-the-clock basis.  The Nashville public square is set up to do that.  Our existing public spaces (the pocket parks and Hemming, currently aren't.  As for the Nashville project, the building is existing and the focus was not on preserving land in the core for future expansion use.  The focus was taking an underutilized property and doing something useful with it, that helps stimulate vibrancy in a present tense.

Quote
I think we have a great example of a well planned courthouse 2 blocks over.  The Federal Courthouse is stately, modern, has public gathering space, and addresses the street (at least on the plaza side) and does this all on one single block.  Our new courthouse could do exactly the same thing.

While I like the architecture of the Federal Courthouse (there's a larger version in Sacramento), the public space leaves a lot to be desired.  I hope that any improvements for any future public space follows the guidelines mentioned here:

Ten Principles for Creating Successful Squares

1. Image and Identity
2. Attractions and Destinations
3. Amenities
4. Flexible Design
5. Seasonal Strategy
6. Access
7. The Inner Square & the Outer Square
8. Reaching Out Like an Octopus
9. The Central Role of Management
10. Diverse Funding Sources

see definition of steps here: http://www.pps.org/squares/info/squares_articles/squares_principles
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 02:24:24 PM
How is their design any different than ours?  Our design has public green space and frankly, a flat grassy area sporting some art or statues is much more "future friendly" than an elevated tierd courtyard with a grass patch in the middle.

There are some significant differences since no thought or funding has been put into what will happen with the left over space north of Adams.

The Nashville Square is a green building.  Its really a five level parking garage with a public park on top.

It also contains water features, such as a reflection pool, an interactive fountain (the thing Peyton wanted to replace Friendship Fountain with), a flexible public lawn for recreation, concerts or special events, a plaza for street vendors, restroom facilities and more.

The use for our land has not been determined yet.  Knowing our history, it could either end up like the park on Main Street or as surface parking.  The Nashville park differs in that it has features that embrace the concept of flexibility in green spaces and it incorporates features that give people a reason to go there, even when the courthouse is not open.  Toronto's City Hall plaza pretty much does the same exact thing. 



Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2008, 02:25:37 PM
In the effort of turning an expensive lemon into lemonade, my focus is now on what happens with the two half blocks left, north of Adams.  Most likely, its going to become a greenspace, so my hope/focus is that we avoid a repeat of what happened on Main Street and create a true space that utilizes the courthouse's traffic and that the entire community can use on a round-the-clock basis.  The Nashville public square is set up to do that.  Our existing public spaces (the pocket parks and Hemming, currently aren't.  As for the Nashville project, the building is existing and the focus was not on preserving land in the core for future expansion use.  The focus was taking an underutilized property and doing something useful with it, that helps stimulate vibrancy in a present tense.

Frankly, I'd rather them sell these half block things - even though they are ridiculous, you give a design team a chance and they would make those two triangles look awesome.  I think two twin glass towers for some Class A Office Space would be great there for Legal Offices and such.  I hope that they don't give up on that thought.

On another note, I REALLY hope that they don't just take something that some design-build company has sitting on the shelves and throw it up there.  If this is the crap that we're stuck with, I hope they make those two blocks iconic.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 02:40:07 PM
I agree, but what's the realistic chance on that happening, considering the whole goal has been to make the courthouse a grand civic monument?  Should anyone really believe the city would be willing to let someone build new towers, within 50' to 100' of the courthouse's walls to "cover up" the new monument up?
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 30, 2008, 02:46:11 PM
Survey says: no freaking way.  They're not going to build towers on the half blocks.  (I actually wouldn't want them to... green space, fountains, and maybe room for cart-based food vendors would be nice.)  We'll be lucky if they don't replicate the awesome river-front surface parking of the current Courthouse.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2008, 02:58:15 PM
The problem is that Hemming is only two blocks away.  I honestly see no use for yet another expansive greens space in the urban core.  Take the money that would be devoted to that and enhance the existing park system versus creating more maintenance and further drain on the budget.  Those two triangles, like Steve suggested, would make wonderful parcels for private development related to courthouse functions.  Smaller pocket parks or plazas could easily be implemented into their design and become an instant enhancement to the courthouse and the surrounding infill that will follow as LaVilla continues to build out.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 30, 2008, 03:03:54 PM
Maybe Jack Diamond can fit a nine-hole course in there?  ::)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2008, 03:04:36 PM
This is what happens when we plan without paying a lick of attention to how a specific project fits within the core and interacts with its surroundings.  Bill Bishop (the only architect on the council) had the same sentiment when he voted against it.  Its really difficult to see city allowing those blocks to be used for anything other than grass or surface parking.  Out of those two options, I'd prefer grass that works for a change.  In the remote event that they do sell the lots off, you won't find any complaints coming from me.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on April 30, 2008, 03:06:48 PM
I've always said build up and sell off the excess land.  But since that's what they're not doing, that's what they're not doing.  I'd rather see flex-greenspace than replicated surface parking lots.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2008, 03:06:54 PM
I'd prefer grass over another surface lot as well.  If nothing else, that property would be available for future expansions to the building.  It certainly doesn't look like it'll be getting any taller.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2008, 03:19:11 PM
I'd prefer grass over another surface lot as well.  If nothing else, that property would be available for future expansions to the building.  It certainly doesn't look like it'll be getting any taller.

Perhaps we can make it a second dog park downtown.  I hear that the $700K one on Main is filling up.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on May 01, 2008, 05:07:07 PM
Here is a look at what kind of impact this building will have on the core.

After seeing this model placed in Google Earth for the first time you'll understand just how massive this building is.  If this were built on one block it would likely be as tall as the Bellsouth Tower!


* Note that the colors are all screwed up for some reason...


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-1.jpg)



(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-2.jpg)



(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-3.jpg)



(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedCourthouse-4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on May 01, 2008, 05:09:19 PM
Wow, Jason!  That's incredible!  You do some amazing renders...

You almost make it look respectable.  And I can completely see Lake's vision for the irregular plots of land that form that... sort of... half-moon shape.

And until now, I never understood where it would sit in relation to the old federal courthouse.  I always imagined it more south-ward.  Sort of south of Monroe.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on May 01, 2008, 05:14:11 PM
I pictured it facing east-west versus north-south.  An east-west orientation would have given it a more prominent appearance because Monroe is a more heavily traveled street and the view from the highway would have been more substantial.  I am happy about the fact that Monroe is staying open to traffic though.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: stephenc on May 01, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
THAT THING IS HUGE!! I didnt realize 4 blocks would take up that much space!!
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jimmy on May 01, 2008, 05:34:06 PM
... An east-west orientation would have given it a more prominent appearance because Monroe is a more heavily traveled street and the view from the highway would have been more substantial...
I agree with that -- however, buildings in DT tend to "face" the river.  Even when they're not on the river. 
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: RiversideGator on May 01, 2008, 07:30:28 PM
Truly ghastly.  Amazing rendering, but it does not change my original opinion.  What a pity.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: thelakelander on May 02, 2008, 04:52:16 AM
Good work Jason.  The courthouse definately looks like a big bull in the middle of a china shop.  At 800,000 square feet, its so large that even in its horizontal format, its still a midrise building that will probably end up being taller than 100 feet or the height of a ten story building.

The graphic also gives a good visual idea of why the remaining portions of the two blocks between Monroe & Adams Streets will most likely become green space, as opposed to private sector infill buildings that will block the view of the structure from Adams Street.

Also, if the city does not sell the last remaining full block between Julia & Pearl, there's going to be a significant level of disconnect between the Hemming Plaza/Adams Street area (the portion with building fabric) and the actual new courthouse.  I'm really interested to find out more about what's going to happen with the remaining blocks than what the actual courthouse building will look like at this point.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: heights unknown on May 02, 2008, 09:14:12 AM
Heights, the lastest design was done by KBJ.  Cannon was let loose a few years ago.

Then I guess what I mean is, I like the "original" KBJ design, not the present one.

Heights Unknown
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on May 02, 2008, 09:52:05 AM
Good work Jason.  The courthouse definately looks like a big bull in the middle of a china shop.  At 800,000 square feet, its so large that even in its horizontal format, its still a midrise building that will probably end up being taller than 100 feet or the height of a ten story building.

The graphic also gives a good visual idea of why the remaining portions of the two blocks between Monroe & Adams Streets will most likely become green space, as opposed to private sector infill buildings that will block the view of the structure from Adams Street.

Also, if the city does not sell the last remaining full block between Julia & Pearl, there's going to be a significant level of disconnect between the Hemming Plaza/Adams Street area (the portion with building fabric) and the actual new courthouse.  I'm really interested to find out more about what's going to happen with the remaining blocks than what the actual courthouse building will look like at this point.


I had no idea of the total height of the proposed building.  Before it was all said and done I ended up with what appears to be a well proportioned model based on the renderings that towers 148' above sea level at the peak of the roof.  May be a little tall but I don't think I'm all that far off.
Title: Re: The Duval County Courthouse finally moves forward
Post by: Jason on May 02, 2008, 09:55:59 AM
Here is a better stand alone image from Sketchup. 


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ScreenHunter_01May020953.jpg)