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Community => Transportation, Mass Transit & Infrastructure => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on August 24, 2011, 03:12:33 AM

Title: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on August 24, 2011, 03:12:33 AM
Toll It and They Will Come?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/513302514_Bgpuu-M.jpg)

In one of the most amazing public policy statements that I can ever recall reading, State Transportation Secretary Annanth Prasad acknowledged - as reported in the Florida Times-Union on Aug. 22 - that "gas tax financing of roads is not sustainable, and tolls will be the first choice for financing all new capacity and major bridge replacements in Florida."



Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-aug-toll-it-and-they-will-come
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: dougskiles on August 24, 2011, 07:49:10 AM
Wonderful editorial, Milt!  Hopefully this will circulate far and wide.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: jcjohnpaint on August 24, 2011, 08:06:23 AM
Lets hit reset and do this again the right way.  Great article. 
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 24, 2011, 08:25:36 AM
I agree...nice editorial....but forget the issues of the outer beltway, toll roads in general, and/or new urbanism for a minute.

The main reasons the gas tax are not sustainable are two-fold.

1. We are making more fuel-efficient cars.....the Big 3 just agreed w/ the administration to raise CAFE standards to average 55 mpg by 2025....while that is a good thing overall, it means less gas tax revenue

2. The Federal gas tax is $0.19 per gallon and has been since 1993....so unlike a typical sales tax, it is not a percentage of the total and is thus not indexed to inflation....which means every year yields less and less buying power.

Guess how much the average American pays in gas taxes for the "right" to drive on all these roads.....around $10-$15 per month!

Now, compare that with your garbage collection fees, water bill, electric bill, cable bill, phone bill, etc.

The answer to financing transportation overall is to institute user fees....be that in the form of tolls...or maybe a Vehicle Miles Travelled (VMT) tax, which could be collected at the pump every time you fill up. 

Just look at airports...we all pay facility taxes (added to our fares) for flying in and out of airports....and, as you've probably noticed by all the gleaming new terminals, airport authorities seem to be doing pretty well.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Garden guy on August 24, 2011, 08:39:52 AM
Again...our leaders, which for this state mean a huge amount of republicans.. making idiot decisions for us. Is'nt this just another tax for a road that already exists? To me this also screams developer involvement...i can see huge sprawl with this bs...
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 24, 2011, 08:44:57 AM
Now...as for the Branan Field-Chafee Expressway (BFCX) itself....

The road has been on maps since the mid-1970's.....and has been analyzed as a toll road for at least 10 years.

The Outer Beltway showed up somewhere in the late 1990's....and as north miami has opined in many posts, it may very well have been drawn up by development interests in southern Clay County....but it also fit neatly into FDOT's plans, as they knew there was no money to replace the existing Shands Bridge....so hey, why not just extend the expressway, connect it around to I-95, toll it, and thereby have the revenue stream needed to afford a new bridge!

So....then Florida's Turnpike Enterprise (a subset of FDOT) looked at the project.....in order to float bonds, they are required to complete investment-grade toll feasibility studies....in the case of the Outer Beltway (the whole 45 mile thuing), I believe the numbers didn't work....so they turned to the private sector in the hopes that it would be willing to build the road.

But the private sector came back and said no thanks, this thing is too long, too costly, and therefore too risky....so FDOT decided to re-examine the feasibility of the smaller 15 mile road.....having done some traffic forecasting in this area myself, it does seem possible to me that the BFCX could get enough traffic to cover its costs over time.

Now, FDOT has built some toll roads in the past that are still being subsidized today (like the Polk Pkwy and Suncoast Pkwy)...they can do that because the mainline Turnpike makes a good profit, especially in south FL (those folks hate subsidizing road projects in central FL).

Bottom line....whether we like the road or not is somewhat immaterial....if we're worried about it potentially being a boondoggle, the question people should be asking the FDOT/Turnpike Enterprise is show us the feasibility study for this road.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 24, 2011, 09:21:10 AM
well, in the past, the gas tax did pay for all roads....it just isn't sustainable going forward because maintenance costs are rising and revenues are declining.

until a few short years ago, the Federal Transportation Trust Fund was solvent....and in fact, Congress regularly took from it to plug other holes.

btw, gas tax revenues also go to transit systems as well as enhnacement (bike/ped) projects....got a clue how much subsidy goes into the aveage transit trip?
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 24, 2011, 09:22:43 AM
Quote
In one of the most amazing public policy statements that I can ever recall reading, State Transportation Secretary Annanth Prasad acknowledged - as reported in the Florida Times-Union on Aug. 22 - that "gas tax financing of roads is not sustainable, and tolls will be the first choice for financing all new capacity and major bridge replacements in Florida."

Well hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin in the argument that suburban sprawl pays for itself, or (my personal favorite, considering the imperious statements from certain planners on this subject) that automobile users pay for all of the roads with this gas tax.


I think we're all aware that the gas tax doesn't come anywhere close to covering the true costs of road building and maintaince.  As TUFSU pointed out above user fees (VMT tax or something of the like) are going to have to be implemented.  I think that once people started paying a user fee for roads (which would be far higher than what we pay in gas taxes now) they would be much much more inclined to look towards other transit modes.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Garden guy on August 24, 2011, 09:46:59 AM
Quote
In one of the most amazing public policy statements that I can ever recall reading, State Transportation Secretary Annanth Prasad acknowledged - as reported in the Florida Times-Union on Aug. 22 - that "gas tax financing of roads is not sustainable, and tolls will be the first choice for financing all new capacity and major bridge replacements in Florida."

Well hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin in the argument that suburban sprawl pays for itself, or (my personal favorite, considering the imperious statements from certain planners on this subject) that automobile users pay for all of the roads with this gas tax.


I think we're all aware that the gas tax doesn't come anywhere close to covering the true costs of road building and maintaince.  As TUFSU pointed out above user fees (VMT tax or something of the like) are going to have to be implemented.  I think that once people started paying a user fee for roads (which would be far higher than what we pay in gas taxes now) they would be much much more inclined to look towards other transit modes.

or people will use roads that aren't fee for use...maybe we need to be talking about stopping all of the effing building of roads...we have empty homes and neighborhoods galore..stop the expanding and be a city...we are allowing developers decide where we go...not really the people..with enough money any area of our state can be ruined by new roads that are completely unneeded...it's getting rediculous...our population isn't growing enough for this bs. i'd call for a moratorium on all road building in the state for 15 years and let everything settle in...we are getting too big for our britches...just c country boys opinion. I mean if we know the money is'nt going to be there...shouldn't we try to control what growth does happen
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Dashing Dan on August 24, 2011, 09:47:45 AM
Coming out of WWII there were a few good reasons for the feds to make cheap land into land that would be suitable for massive amounts of new development. 

Many of our road building friends are still thinking the same way.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 24, 2011, 09:54:57 AM
Quote
or people will use roads that aren't fee for use


With a user fee there would be no fee-free roads.  You would pay just for driving, regardless of what road you were on.

But I'm with you on the cutting back of road building however, the road building lobby has a very powerful voice.  And as Dan mentioned, there are lots of them that want to continue building them.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 24, 2011, 10:04:13 AM
But the private sector came back and said no thanks, this thing is too long, too costly, and therefore too risky....so FDOT decided to re-examine the feasibility of the smaller 15 mile road.....having done some traffic forecasting in this area myself, it does seem possible to me that the BFCX could get enough traffic to cover its costs over time.

Here's where the math gets fuzzy, imo.  I assume the traffic forecast would anticipate that new development created by expanding the road would account for a signficant portion of traffic increases.  We all know that sprawl rarely pays for itself, which means the general public will most likely be on the permanent hook future school, fire, police, library facility construction, vehicles that come with them and the salaries and pensions of those employed to work at them.  However, this hidden cost isn't factored into the numbers that are needed to justify the road construction.

Secondly, who typically pays for the new roads or expanded local roads needed to feed cars to the new expressway?  For example, this particular segment of the Outer Beltway would work much better if College Drive were extended west from Blanding to Oakleaf.  However, that's probably a $100 million expense that no one has addressed at this point.  All in all, smoke and mirrors, imo.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 24, 2011, 10:16:31 AM
But the private sector came back and said no thanks, this thing is too long, too costly, and therefore too risky....so FDOT decided to re-examine the feasibility of the smaller 15 mile road.....having done some traffic forecasting in this area myself, it does seem possible to me that the BFCX could get enough traffic to cover its costs over time.

Here's where the math gets fuzzy, imo.  I assume the traffic forecast would anticipate that new development created by expanding the road would account for a signficant portion of traffic increases.  We all know that sprawl rarely pays for itself, which means the general public will most likely be on the permanent hook future school, fire, police, library facility construction, vehicles that come with them and the salaries and pensions of those employed to work at them.  However, this hidden cost isn't factored into the numbers that are needed to justify the road construction.

Secondly, who typically pays for the new roads or expanded local roads needed to feed cars to the new expressway?  For example, this particular segment of the Outer Beltway would work much better if College Drive were extended west from Blanding to Oakleaf.  However, that's probably a $100 million expense that no one has addressed at this point.  All in all, smoke and mirrors, imo.

Unfortunately this is a reality that that travel demand model doesn't necessarily address.  Its traffic projections are based on population growth so while you may be able to pull off a toll feasibility study that shows enough traffic in which you can make enough money actually construct the road itself, there are many other ancillary costs associated with building the road that are not accurately accounted for.  So FDOT (Turnpike Enterprises, etc.) can say "look, we can generate enough tolls to pay for this road so we're good to go" however, they're not the ones that are left on the hook to pay the schools and roads and other stuff that you mentioned that will come along with this road. 

The proponents of the road (outer beltway) need to look at this road and ask themselves:  Do we want more sprawl and, if so, how are we going to pay for this sprawl?  Unfortunately in the case of the outer beltway I think the only proponets are a handful of wealthy land owners that will make millions off of this thing leaving the tax payers to clean up the mess down the road.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2011, 10:46:57 AM
I think at this point I only support one major road expansion project in Florida. I'm hoping the pavement crazed asphalt addicts in Tallahassee, quickly fill in all of the available medians and excess space along I-4 between Orlando and Tampa. Hopefully this would have the effect of shutting down our rush for 'national high speed rail suicide' occurring in Central Florida. Forcing a more logical corridor service on the CSX complimented by a wider improved I-4 and we finally obtain highwaytopia.  ;)

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 24, 2011, 10:55:30 AM
Don't worry.  HSR is dead in that corridor for at least another generation.  Hopefully, Amtrak will take advantage of Rick Scott's decision to lobby for an statewide corridor service similar to what's offered in California.  Unfortunately, it won't really work as a decent alternative to that specific area's congestion issues on I-4.  The CSX corridor too far off from I-4 anchors/destinations outside of DT Orlando and Tampa to be a viable commuting option for those not heading to the central cities (which happens to be most) but it makes sense on a larger statewide level and would be a boost to the old downtown districts of the sprawling network of bedroom communities between the big boys.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Lunican on August 24, 2011, 10:59:36 AM
I think everyone is forgetting the American Dream. A house, two cars, and a three lane driveway.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-jwb86tj/0/M/dscn0555-M.jpg)

Isn't it beautiful?
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2011, 11:01:46 AM
(http://www.glatting.com/IMAGES/wotRail%20Trees.jpg)

Not to completely hijack the thread but did you know there is an intact abandoned railroad right-of-way from Orlando to Clearwater that skirts the north edge of Disney's Kingdom.  A freeway sandwiched between two viable rail lines might be the ticket.

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 24, 2011, 11:11:18 AM
What major destinations does it hit in between the corridor cities or is it rural and through environmentally sensitive areas like the Green Swamp?
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: KenFSU on August 24, 2011, 11:17:27 AM
I think that once people started paying a user fee for roads (which would be far higher than what we pay in gas taxes now) they would be much much more inclined to look towards other transit modes.

Unless no other viable transit mode exists, such is the case here in Jacksonville. I'm all for tolling new beltways and lanes and other convenience routes, but I'm very wary of the idea of assessing useage fees for existing roads. Unless said fees were very, very carefully implemented, perhaps even on a sliding income scale, you would face a situation where the middle class -- already being decimated in America -- is hammered even closer into the ground, and a situation where it may be economically impossible for the lower class -- already struggling with fuel prices -- to commute more than a few miles to work. The CEO making a quarter million dollars a year is benefitting way more economically from his morning use of Butler Boulevard than the janitor of the same office building. It seems only fair he should pay more. I'm equally wary of VMT fees, or more specifically, the way in which they would implemented. I was at a meeting with the FDOT D2 Secretary two or three years ago, and he was discussing the possibility of forcing all commuters to put a government issued GPS device in their vehicles, which would then be either read at pumps or taxed electronically. Tracking the daily travel of citizens is far beyond the rights of the government. An odometer is one thing, a GPS is something entirely different.

Personally, I'd like to see some creative efforts to solve the problem of sustainability. If, for example, Comcast is willing to pay $10 million for naming rights to a major highway, put it toward maintenance and let citizens drive the Comcast Outer Beltway to work. Offer free billboards to sponsors. Let the big corporations do their part as well.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: John P on August 24, 2011, 11:26:04 AM
Please ask the Florida times union to run this editorial. It is very well written and reasoned. Please also email this to the city council and Mayors office. I know this is not a city of Jacksonville project but it is important that everyone knows the principles and ideas.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 24, 2011, 11:32:46 AM
I think that once people started paying a user fee for roads (which would be far higher than what we pay in gas taxes now) they would be much much more inclined to look towards other transit modes.

Unless no other viable transit mode exists, such is the case here in Jacksonville. I'm all for tolling new beltways and lanes and other convenience routes, but I'm very wary of the idea of assessing useage fees for existing roads. Unless said fees were very, very carefully implemented, perhaps even on a sliding income scale, you would face a situation where the middle class -- already being decimated in America -- is hammered even closer into the ground, and a situation where it may be economically impossible for the lower class -- already struggling with fuel prices -- to commute more than a few miles to work. The CEO making a quarter million dollars a year is benefitting way more economically from his morning use of Butler Boulevard than the janitor of the same office building. It seems only fair he should pay more. I'm equally wary of VMT fees, or more specifically, the way in which they would implemented. I was at a meeting with the FDOT D2 Secretary two or three years ago, and he was discussing the possibility of forcing all commuters to put a government issued GPS device in their vehicles, which would then be either read at pumps or taxed electronically. Tracking the daily travel of citizens is far beyond the rights of the government. An odometer is one thing, a GPS is something entirely different.

Personally, I'd like to see some creative efforts to solve the problem of sustainability. If, for example, Comcast is willing to pay $10 million for naming rights to a major highway, put it toward maintenance and let citizens drive the Comcast Outer Beltway to work. Offer free billboards to sponsors. Let the big corporations do their part as well.

You're right.  As our transit system works now, implementing user fees could have a negative effect on the lower class since our transit system currently pretty much sucks.  However, if more and more people begin demanding better transit options in response to paying a user fee transit agencies would have no choice but to step it up.  It would be a forced demand.  Right now it's too easy to drive on roads when you're paying a miniscule gas tax. 

As for VMT, Oregon has already studied it with a pilot program and Texas is looking into it as well.  In the Oregon example, data was downloaded at the pump about where the car traveled in various areas.  No data about the actual route traveled was collected.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 24, 2011, 01:58:25 PM
and don't forget, the gas tax today funds a good portion of many transit systems.....a VMT or user fee could work the same way...so while it might hurt lower-income people who drive (assuming it would be higher cost than current gas tax), the extra revenue could provide for better transit service and/or limit fare increases.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Garden guy on August 24, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
Quote
In one of the most amazing public policy statements that I can ever recall reading, State Transportation Secretary Annanth Prasad acknowledged - as reported in the Florida Times-Union on Aug. 22 - that "gas tax financing of roads is not sustainable, and tolls will be the first choice for financing all new capacity and major bridge replacements in Florida."

Well hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin in the argument that suburban sprawl pays for itself, or (my personal favorite, considering the imperious statements from certain planners on this subject) that automobile users pay for all of the roads with this gas tax.


I think we're all aware that the gas tax doesn't come anywhere close to covering the true costs of road building and maintaince.  As TUFSU pointed out above user fees (VMT tax or something of the like) are going to have to be implemented.  I think that once people started paying a user fee for roads (which would be far higher than what we pay in gas taxes now) they would be much much more inclined to look towards other transit modes.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 24, 2011, 02:16:29 PM
As for VMT, Oregon has already studied it with a pilot program and Texas is looking into it as well.  In the Oregon example, data was downloaded at the pump about where the car traveled in various areas.  No data about the actual route traveled was collected.

Right, and currently they are studying variances from in-state, out-of-state and rush-hour driving.  What I don't see a correlation to is MPG.  Why should I pay the same milage-use rate when I get 50 MPG in my Prius v/s someone getting 12 MPG in their H3?  I believe the opposite argument is being used to find an alternative to the gas tax.

The bigger question is whether or not the gen pub is willing to let Big Brother track their each and every move.  They can 'say' that the transponder doesn't track coordinates, but is there any way to tell whether it actually does or not. 
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 24, 2011, 02:27:06 PM
Quote
What I don't see a correlation to is MPG.  Why should I pay the same milage-use rate when I get 50 MPG in my Prius v/s someone getting 12 MPG in their H3? I believe the opposite argument is being used to find an alternative to the gas tax.
 

That is the argument being used against the gas tax and why the gas tax no longer is useful.  As cars become more and more fuel efficient less revenue is collected via the gas tax.  The VMT fee eliminates this. D

You're correct though, the biggest issue facing implementing something like this is that most people think the government is going to be watching your every move (they probably already do that if you have OnStar though ;)).
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 24, 2011, 04:05:15 PM
all that is needed to encourage smaller, fuel effcient cars is a "gas guzzler" tax on heavy, inefficient vehicles....paid at the time of purchase or with annual registration fees
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 24, 2011, 05:40:21 PM
after doing a couple of google searches, I found some options where the (what essentially is a) use tax rate should be tiered based on the type/size/mpg of your vehicle.  A Prius owner would pay substantially less per mile than the H3 that I used in my example. 

Another question is how would this affect shipping across the nation.  Would the economics of it start putting freight/logistics companies out of business?  Especially the owner/operators.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2011, 08:30:36 PM
What major destinations does it hit in between the corridor cities or is it rural and through environmentally sensitive areas like the Green Swamp?

(http://www.taplines.net/March/obtt.jpg)

Here it is in 1893, complete with a great name for a commuter-corridor service. While not nearly as populated as the CSX southern route, everywhere it crosses a north-south road it comes in contact with a boom town atmosphere.

It does go through Green Swamp but then so does the former Seaboard Coleman-Auburndale cutoff, and in my never so humble opinion, BOTH should be immediately rebuilt. However I would stop short of rebuilding the entire Orange Belt running instead north from Tampa to Drexel and hence east through Trilby, Mabel, Winter Garden, Ocoee and it would join the Florida Central just south of Apopka. The FC is already planned for a commuter rail system. Services would be rush hour style with your favorite DMU's and I'd only operate a couple of through trains during midday hours.
Bump up I-4 and corridor the CSX and Central Florida would start looking very attractive.


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 24, 2011, 09:28:57 PM
Talk about a serpentine corridor.  I'd go with slapping a new commuter line right down the median of I-4 before I'd rebuild the orange belt for passenger rail or freight purposes.  One corridor has millions of people living and working adjacent to it right now.  The other has more cows than people in partially environmentally sensitive areas that should remain rural and agricultural long term.  Anyway, a lot of that ROW is long gone in the more urbanized areas.  Looking at google earth, the stretch near SR 54 is a mix of low density track home subdivisions, new roads and expressways now.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: EP on August 24, 2011, 09:44:47 PM
Its only going to get worse.  Wait until SAFETEA-LU expires on 9/30.  House leaders want huge cuts to transportation infrastructure.  Senate leaders are proposing funding figures far less than what the president campaigned on.  BIG cuts are imminent...
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: north miami on August 25, 2011, 06:06:09 AM

It is fascinating to see that "the public" is stuck in a merge lane so to speak..........always in the react mode.

Our own Ms.Marty Lanahan,Florida Transportation Commission (who knew of the Commission!?!?) has advocated for tolls.

Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Dashing Dan on August 25, 2011, 08:05:25 AM
If all of these projects are feasible as toll facilities, that would be one thing. 

If the tolls are just a sham, then that would be something else.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: tufsu1 on August 25, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
Our own Ms.Marty Lanahan,Florida Transportation Commission (who knew of the Commission!?!?) has advocated for tolls.

as has just about every transportation financiang expert in the country
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: JeffreyS on August 25, 2011, 09:44:47 AM
Tolls may be fine on a worthwhile project. The outer beltway is not a worthwhile project for Duval.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 25, 2011, 09:51:43 AM
Tolls are fine but they should be higher, imo.  They should pay for their actual cost on the taxpayer instead of specific roadway capital and maintenance costs.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: Dashing Dan on August 25, 2011, 10:29:03 AM
Toll facilities create their own patterns of roadway and land development.  There's an economic incentive to create choke points and to not have parallel routes.  The Dame Point bridge is a perfect example of this.

If you're just pretending that the tolls are paying for the roads, then the development pattern will not be affected so much.

If you're talking about HOT lanes, that's not really about paying for a road.  HOT lanes are more of a way for rationing capacity.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: thelakelander on August 25, 2011, 10:33:20 AM
When I speak of "actual costs" I'm talking about what you are trying to describe.  Schools, Parks, Fire/Police, Library, more local roads to feed the beast, water/sewer, the long term maintenance of these things and the workforce/pensions that come along with them.  A chunk of these costs should be lumped into the toll too.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: cline on August 25, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
A chunk of these costs should be lumped into the toll too.

They should and if they were none of these beltways would ever be built as it would be cost prohibitive.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: north miami on September 01, 2011, 08:50:31 PM

the Beltway will provide critical,established future White Flight need.
Title: Re: Toll It and They Will Come?
Post by: north miami on September 09, 2011, 11:47:39 PM
Now...as for the Branan Field-Chafee Expressway (BFCX) itself....

The road has been on maps since the mid-1970's.....and has been analyzed as a toll road for at least 10 years.

The Outer Beltway showed up somewhere in the late 1990's....and as north miami has opined in many posts, it may very well have been drawn up by development interests in southern Clay County....but it also fit neatly into FDOT's plans, as they knew there was no money to replace the existing Shands Bridge....so hey, why not just extend the expressway, connect it around to I-95, toll it, and thereby have the revenue stream needed to afford a new


Why,I could play the Role of Planner & Consultant!

In fact a clearly depicted "beltway" 'showed up' on local government planning maps in the early 70's.And why is this aspect so significant,hopefully not discussed?
Shands Bridge funding narrative a disservice.