Author Topic: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis  (Read 7790 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« on: December 04, 2009, 06:14:19 AM »
Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis



While Jacksonville remains at a relative standstill, Minneapolis' new 40-mile commuter rail line gives us a glance at a transit system that could one day offer local Jacksonville residents an alternative to access various parts of the city.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-northstar-commuter-rail-service-begins-in-minneapolis

BridgeTroll

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 06:56:48 AM »
Very nice...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

aaapolito

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 07:16:00 AM »
This city will just watch everyone pass it by.

JeffreyS

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 08:44:07 AM »
8 million per mile sounds cheaper than BRT.
Lenny Smash

fsujax

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 08:49:05 AM »
It took them ten years from feasiblity study to the starting of service to get this thing completed. Guess Jacksonville should have done their feasibility study back in 1999 and we could have started service this year. Also, remember Minneapolis is the only major metro area in Minnesota, therefore, they didn't have to compete with three other metro areas larger than them for funding from the state or the feds. At least Jacksonville has completed its first study and others around the state are starting to recognize that we want our piece of the pie now. Keep the faith! it will happen.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »
8 million per mile sounds cheaper than BRT.

I'm sure that was a typo Jeffery, remember BRT is "Just like rail, only cheaper..."  "BRT could even carry MORE PASSENGERS, on 2 second headways."

Imagine!


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thelakelander

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 09:31:50 AM »
It took them ten years from feasibility study to the starting of service to get this thing completed. Guess Jacksonville should have done their feasibility study back in 1999 and we could have started service this year. Also, remember Minneapolis is the only major metro area in Minnesota, therefore, they didn't have to compete with three other metro areas larger than them for funding from the state or the feds. At least Jacksonville has completed its first study and others around the state are starting to recognize that we want our piece of the pie now. Keep the faith! it will happen.

Here is my thinking on this.  I think we can speed up the pace, but to do so, we'll also need a continuous onslaught of what our peers are doing and we aren't.  In addition to identifying and securing funding, we'll also need to publicly document and follow the success and failures of what peers, who have been more progressive, are experiencing as a result of their investments. 

If we can keep the issue on the front burner and show that this has just as much to do with quality of life and economic development, as it does moving people from point A to B, it won't take another decade to get our feet wet.  Instead it will become a political issue and maybe a local leadership figure will finally step up to the plate and help lead us to the light.  If that can happen, what took Minneapolis ten during an anti-rail federal era, could end up taking us five or less (if phased), while we still have a federal administration in charge that values rail, green policies and reducing emissions.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 09:33:45 AM by thelakelander »
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fsujax

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 09:33:14 AM »
i hope so.

ralpho37

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 11:42:54 AM »
I definitely agree, Lake.  We should come up with a report of all these other cities' rail projects to submit to the City Council.

AaroniusLives

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 12:50:30 PM »
Quote
Also, remember Minneapolis is the only major metro area in Minnesota, therefore, they didn't have to compete with three other metro areas larger than them for funding from the state or the feds.

In terms of state funding, all of the revenue generated from cash cow, population-rich South Florida is actually funneled north to the rest of the state. The inequity of funds has gotten so bad that there's a separate state movement, to create "South Florida" out of Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties. In the state, your competition for cash comes mostly from Orlando. Clearly, the state sees the metro area as Florida's "Atlanta," with Miami being Florida's "Hong Kong."

In terms of federal funding, state or regional considerations come up later in the process. In general, it's population and placement in the size chart of metropolitan statistical areas that determines the funding. For example, a bridge that carries zillions of people in New York City will get funding before a bridge in the boonies for obvious transit and economic reasons (outside of pork, or course.) The feds rate the "value" of the project and fund accordingly.

Remember, that it terms of intellectual capital, human capital, and tax revenue, there's the Top 10...and then there's the Rest of the United States. The top ten metropolitan statistical areas are, in effect, their own region in fed funding minds.

tufsu1

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 01:27:17 PM »
In terms of state funding, all of the revenue generated from cash cow, population-rich South Florida is actually funneled north to the rest of the state.

That is just plain not true...when it comes to transit funding in Florida, Miami-Dade and Broward get about 50% of the state's funds...but yet have roughly 25% of the population.

AaroniusLives

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 02:20:15 PM »
Quote
Quote
In terms of state funding, all of the revenue generated from cash cow, population-rich South Florida is actually funneled north to the rest of the state.


That is just plain not true...when it comes to transit funding in Florida, Miami-Dade and Broward get about 50% of the state's funds...but yet have roughly 25% of the population.


Nope.
http://www2.godanriver.com/gdr/news/local/article/south_florida_towns_to_vote_on_secession/3524/

Quote from article:
Quote
Margate Mayor Jack Brady, who is proposing the resolution to the commission, says: “We believe South Florida has many different issues than those in North and Central Florida and yet we all get put into the same frying pan together. … Local officials are the closest to the people and we have to do what is right for our citizens.”

They argue that much of the state’s tax revenue comes from there, but little is spent there.

The release states that during a recent visit to Tallahassee, North Lauderdale Commissioner Rich Moyle told legislators: “Last year you beat our cities up, and this year you are stealing our lunch money. How are we supposed to run our cities?” Moyle said there was no response.


Whether the perception is more powerful than reality is up for debate.

Here's some more.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/florida/322921-south-florida-wants-its-own-state.html

Quote:
Quote
I honestly don't think it's a bad idea. Tallahassee leeches from the bottom three counties without giving much in return. SE Florida is different from the rest of the state and has it's own issues. Unfortunately, it would probably mean higher taxes and probably a state income tax for the bottom three because of the way things are done down here...

Quote:
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This is so true, I remember when I went to school in Tally. It came out that the money collected on the 836 toll in Miami, was going towards funding the new roads being built in Tally at the time. Even know I liked driving on the new roads there. I just found it so unfair. The money collected in one county should stay in that county. The people paying should see that money used in their county, not given to another county. If Leon County or any other county needs new roads, then they need to use their own money, and if they don't have the money, then they need to find a way to get the money from their residents (raising taxes, we all know that northern florida has cheaper taxes), not take it from another county.

Quote:
Quote
The point is so accurate. North and Central Florida always have had a disproportionate amount of clout in the state Legislature, and South Florida's schools and infrastructure have paid the price.

The only trouble is that when Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties have tried to work together to find solutions to the region's problems, it generally hasn't worked too well because all three counties have their own agendas. That would have to change

Again, not sure how much of this is anecdotal or perception. But it's interesting that the perception is there...and is felt.

Regarding the population, 2008 estimates for Florida are 18,328,340. For South Florida MSA: 5,414,772. That makes South Florida possess 29.5% of the state's total population...or a third (as if 1/4 is somehow small.) Moreover, this population exists on a land mass that is 110 miles long, but never more than 20 miles wide at the most. In many ways, it's the state equivalent of the Northeast Corridor, or "BosWash," a densely populated region that contrasts highly with the population/settlement patterns of the host country.

Regarding the economic activity, Florida's GDP was $744,120,000. South Florida's MSA was $248,029,000, or 33% of the state's income.

That really does mark the MSA as quite different from the rest of the state. Consider this: about a 3rd of the state's population is generating about a 3rd of the total state's income on less than a 10th of the state's total land (6,137 square miles out of 65,795 square miles. 9.3%) Mind you, since two-thirds of that land is Everglades, the equation is more like 2200 square miles (or 20 miles wide times 110 miles long for 2200 square miles.) Using that statistic, a 3rd of the state's population is generating about a 3rd of the total state's income on 3.3% of the land. That's freakin' astonishing.

Hey...that was kind of interesting. Let's plug the Jacksonville MSA into the mix:

Regarding the population, 2008 estimates for Florida are 18,328,340. For Jacksonville MSA: 1,313,228. That makes Jacksonville MSA possess 7.1% of the state's total population.

Regarding the economic activity, Florida's GDP was $744,120,000. Jacksonville's MSA was $58,163,000, or 7.8% of the state's income.

In terms of geographic efficiency versus economic production, 7% of the state's population is generating about 8% of the state's income on 5.6% of the land.

(Population figures via wikipedia.)
(MSA economics via link: http://www.eflorida.com/floridasregionsSubpage.aspx?id=394)

Sorry...went into stat land!

 






« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:39:49 PM by AaroniusLives »

tufsu1

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 02:50:19 PM »
I said 25% because I was only counting Miami-Dade (approx. 2.5 million) and Broward (approx. 2 million).

As for representation in the Florida Legislature, its all based on population...so South Florida and North Florida are each proportionally represented.

And finally, to the issue of tolls....while it is true that money collected on SR 836, the HEFT, and the Tpk in south Florida gets spread around the entire Turnpike system, that money has never gone toward building roads in the Tallahassee area.

All these quotes are just people from south Florida whining....I say let them create their own state....without their  property tax issues, the rest of us would never have seen Amendment 1 a few years back!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:54:34 PM by tufsu1 »

AaroniusLives

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 03:36:08 PM »
Quote
All these quotes are just people from south Florida whining....I say let them create their own state....without their  property tax issues, the rest of us would never have seen Amendment 1 a few years back!

A couple of those quotes were from people not from South Florida. Moreover, I chose the less "whine" filled ones, sifting through opinion for reason.

As for the creation of the State of South Florida, that would be a horrid idea for the rest of the state. To remove a 3rd of your taxable income generation from about 10% or 3% of your land is nuts. There's a similar "movement" afoot up here, for Northern Virginia to secede from the rest of the state...which would cut Virginia's GDP by nearly 40%.


Ocklawaha

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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 04:07:03 PM »
I definitely agree, Lake.  We should come up with a report of all these other cities' rail projects to submit to the City Council.

Great idea Ralph, but can they read with any comprehension?

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