Rail in Jacksonville: Getting Started Immediately

[Metro Jacksonville]

Rail in Jacksonville: Getting Started Immediately



“Rapid transit is about a lot more than moving people from Point A to Point B,” Owens says. “It’s about creating vibrant communities. It’s about making Detroit and the suburbs the types of vibrant communities people believe they can become. We need to not only think about what do we want today but want we want 20, 30, 40 years from now. Do we want to continue to sprawl out into the farmlands or do we want to change what we’re doing?” Jon Zemke, Metromode Development News - Density vs. Transit  3 /05/08

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1047

[5PointsGuy]

What about expanding the Skyway? It should be extended into 5-Points/Riverside and to the stadium/coliseum area.

[thelakelander]

That's not currently under consideration by JTA, but according to a 12 year old TU editorial, it would have cost $85 million then.

Limousines would be cheaper than the Skyway
The Florida Times-Union - Monday, January 6, 1997
Author: Ronald L. Littlepage, Times-Union columnist

No, you are not dreaming.

Yes, it is a nightmare.

The folks at the "we screwed up the roadways and the bus system, what can we do next?" Jacksonville Transportation Authority are making their plans for 1998.

At the top of the list is dumping more money down the rathole -- my apologies to rats everywhere -- popularly known as the Automated Riderless Express.

Never mind that most of the time the cars of the little train that couldn't, when it happens to be running, go back and forth empty.

Never mind that when the 2.5mile system is finally completed late this year, the official price tag will be $185 million of taxpayer money.

Go ahead and figure it out. That comes to almost $75 million per mile.

As has been pointed out before, it would have been cheaper to hire chauffeured limousines to carry the few people who ride the Skyway to their destinations.

From the beginning, the silly train has been billed as a "demonstration project," which is how the JTA got the federal government to ante up a pile of money so that people in places like Wyoming would help us folks in Jacksonville pay for the thing.

Now that the "demonstration" has proven to be a flop, you'd think that would be the end of it.

No.

The JTA is seriously considering further demonstrating its ability to screw up by spending $85 million more to extend the Skyway to Alltel Stadium.

This will get interesting.

Mayor John Delaney, who has appointed some of his buddies to the JTA board, prides himself on fulfilling campaign promises.

Some of us remember what he said about the Skyway when he was running for office in 1995.

He called it a "disaster" and a "turkey." His campaign literature said, "We're through building the people mover." He pledged not to put any more local money into the project.

Because the opposition of a mayor, particularly a popular one like Delaney, would likely end any talk of extending the Skyway , the question becomes: Will Delaney stick by his promises or will he undergo a conversion at the altar of the Skyway as his predecessor did once he was in office?

The JTA is pushing the Skyway extension to Alltel Stadium as a way to get fans to Jaguar games and as a shuttle for downtown workers, who the JTA hopes to entice to park there during the week.

Forget it.

For three years now, we've proven that fans can get to Jaguar games quite nicely, thank you.

As far as downtown workers, $85 million would hire a lot of limousine drivers.

Gee. Shuttle buses would be even cheaper.

So if we have $100 million currently set aside for rapid transit, should a 1-mile skyway expansion to the stadium come before other components (streetcar/commuter rail) that could stretch into areas outside of downtown?

[KenFSU]

At this time, an expansion of the Skyway to the stadium seems like a disastrous waste of money. $85 million (in 1997 dollars) to connect downtown to a stadium district that already contains adequate parking and is for all intents and purposes a ghost town for much of the year. What a waste of money that would be.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.  Given the city's recent track history in public transit projects, to ensure the whole system gets built, it's going to need some good PR early which means the first phase needs to attract some riders.

[Shwaz]

I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.

Blanding Blvd. would cost a billion dollars to set up and would be too much of a gamble with downtown visitors opting to take I-295 instead. IMO it should connect downtown to it's immediate surrounding neighborhoods.

San Marco / Riverside / Springfield

All three neighborhood’s are close enough to current station and would only require a few short runs of track.
Plus all three neighborhoods are already established as walk able and would have more skyway riders IMO

[JeffreyS]

I like the urban streetcar proposal though it should cross between Fidelity and BCBS.  Then try to take advantage of Amtrak expansions as starter commuter rail.

[thelakelander]

I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.

Blanding Blvd. would cost a billion dollars to set up and would be too much of a gamble with downtown visitors opting to take I-295 instead.

The SW corridor would be the CSX line paralleling Roosevelt.  Its estimated that the entire route, from DT to Green Cove Springs, would cost $158 million or $5.4 million per mile.  If phased (ex. DT to county line first), it could be possible to get it up and running for less than $100 million.

From article

Commuter rail SW corridor

Description: Rail corridor connecting Downtown to NAS Jax and Clay County.

Route Length: 29.3 miles

JTA Cost Estimate: $158 million or $5.4 million per mile

High Density Neighborhoods Impacted: Downtown, Riverside, North Riverside, Murray Hill

Pro: Alternative route between Downtown, Orange Park and Clay County.  Existing freight traffic expected to be relocated through Baldwin.

Con: If Orlando SunRail commuter rail deal dies, existing freight traffic will not be relocated, thus creating track capacity issues.

[thelakelander]

Btw, valid point concerning Amtrak.  If a Amtrak corridor system could be established, some commuter needs between DT and the counties to the south could be met.  It would also result in the reduction of commuter rail implementation costs, since Amtrak would help fund capacity improvements along these rail corridors.  This would then free up money to connect urban neighborhoods to DT, via streetcar.

[Steve]

Well, it's unlikely to see an Amtrak corridor service between Jax and Green Cove.  However Jax and St. Augustine seems likely.  The other one I would thnk of could be the northside line, because of the economic development potential.

[Shwaz]

The SW corridor would be the CSX line paralleling Roosevelt.  Its estimated that the entire route, from DT to Green Cove Springs, would cost $158 million or $5.4 million per mile.  If phased (ex. DT to county line first), it could be possible to get it up and running for less than $100 million.

I was talking about extending the skyway and thought by the $$$ listed above it would cost a billion dollars to run the sky way to Blanding blvd. / OP

The light rail is definitely better for the longer runs.

[5PointsGuy]

Wow, that is... amazingly high for a construction project. Thanks for the good info. I bring up the Skyway because it goes from nowhere to nowhere. I just want to see it at least connect to some residential area. I would ride it every day if it came to 5-Points.

[Ocklawaha]

Wow, that is... amazingly high for a construction project. Thanks for the good info. I bring up the Skyway because it goes from nowhere to nowhere. I just want to see it at least connect to some residential area. I would ride it every day if it came to 5-Points.

Actually, the $85 Millon a mile Skyway cost is bogus. I wouldn't cost much more then Light Rail (if that much). As they built the original, they planned for a bigger system. Bigger automation, computers, operations center, maintenance base, extra cars and a Skyway yard. Over half the money went into the infrastructure across the street from the TU. The TU just hasn't figured that out.

The actual lines themselves are way too overengineered, expensive and bulky. The Disney monorail runs 3 x the speed and Carry's more passengers then any other system on earth and it's mainlines didn't cost what we paid per mile for just the Skyway Track. So to get a closer idea of the REAL SKYWAY EXPANSION COSTS: Cut the original $180 Million in half (half to the operations center and half to actual lines and stations) Now take that half and cut it again from 1/3 to 1/2 to eliminate the overengineering and you'd be much closer to a correct PER MILE COST figure.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

I think we'd get more bang for the buck with the streetcar and spending a goodly sum on the rail-side of the Jacksonville Terminal Station. Billions in new development.

Bring Amtrak back downtown, and wait for the JTC to be built, meanwhile Amtrak could operate out of the new platforms and a temporary station.

Once Amtrak gets a green signal to go for throttle up on regional rail, THEN we go for the Commuter Rail package.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Ock if I ruled that checkbook your last post is the plan I would go with.