Author Topic: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan  (Read 9974 times)

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2024, 06:00:36 PM »
Someone needs to bring me up to speed. Why not implement an Eastside CRA? Or a special tax district like at one point discussed? $5M in 2045 is going to be virtually meaningless to the goals of the Eastside today. Yeah $150M is a big number, but it's also not really $150M. The Eastside has more resources for it today than virtually any other redlined neighborhood in Jacksonville. A good percentage of it is already bought up.
Stay tuned. There's a lot to unpack that you aren't aware of at this point. As for the Eastside, all of the Eastside is included, not just the area south of East 8th Street. A TIF is also under consideration.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Joey Mackey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2024, 06:06:17 PM »

This is probably the last I'll be able to say on this for a while, but the CBA is very much an intrinsic part of this deal, and the city and Jags are 100% united on this. Everything in it is there because it’s a priority. The city's investment is not only what got the Jags to chip in additional CBA money, but it's what's needed for the additional downtown investments everyone wants to see.

I believe the Jags and the City (read Donna Deegan's administration) are united on the Community Benifits Agreement being passed as proposed, but I am not convinced that some City Council members share that belief. https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/may/15/council-members-proposed-stadium-deal-offers-promise-but-also-begs-questions/ I do know, however, the Salem wants to be the Council President who secured the Jaguars for another 30 years, so if he and Donna can strong arm this deal, as written, by the end of June I will not be surprised. I respect your position with the City, so obviously I do not expect a reply.

Jax_Developer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2024, 06:10:20 PM »
Someone needs to bring me up to speed. Why not implement an Eastside CRA? Or a special tax district like at one point discussed? $5M in 2045 is going to be virtually meaningless to the goals of the Eastside today. Yeah $150M is a big number, but it's also not really $150M. The Eastside has more resources for it today than virtually any other redlined neighborhood in Jacksonville. A good percentage of it is already bought up.
Stay tuned. There's a lot to unpack that you aren't aware of at this point. As for the Eastside, all of the Eastside is included, not just the area south of East 8th Street. A TIF is also under consideration.

I'll be patient! I just really hope that the payment period's and NPV were all taken into consideration. Iguana seems to be the real winner here.

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3356
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2024, 10:08:04 PM »
I believe funding the parks are critical to elevating the appeal of Downtown.  Who wants to live Downtown with no convenient way to recreate?

And, the river is a focal point that can attract visitors to Downtown more than any other attraction if it is catered to. The Riverwalk and Emerald Trail are a start, but it isn't enough.  We need more space and variation for play spaces, pickup games, dog walking, gardens, meditative spaces, performance and visual arts, etc.  And, a place to host large events. When we hosted the Super Bowl in 2005, it was the vacant riverfront properties on both the Northbank and Southbank that hosted concerts, the NFL experience, and more.  If we want to host another Super Bowl or the NFL Draft, we are going to have to preserve these spaces to host tens or hundreds of thousands of people.

In addition, green spaces along the river serve as resiliency buffers to the inevitable flooding in our future.

Developers will add more value to Downtown by having these green amenities to compliment their developments.  Just look at any other city before us.  The taxes on that development will more than pay for our investment in these parks.

No city ever said they had too much park space, only too little.  Jax is under-parked, especially along our waterways, once you subtract the acreage in the massive Timucuan Preserve.  And, many of our "parks" are actually school playgrounds doubling as "parks" or odd pieces of right of way that have no other use.  Many cities have standards for parks being within a certain distance of each neighborhood and I doubt Jax would pass such a standard.

Lastly, parks need to be set aside before population expands as the land disappears quickly at that point.  We need to think decades into the future, not just today.  Jax falls way short on this type of planning and visioning.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2024, 10:46:01 PM »
I'm fine with money being spent to finish out the park system sooner rather than later. We've been looking at a blighted shipyards site since the 1990s.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2024, 10:01:55 AM »
I'm fine with money being spent to finish out the park system sooner rather than later. We've been looking at a blighted shipyards site since the 1990s.
I believe funding the parks are critical to elevating the appeal of Downtown.  Who wants to live Downtown with no convenient way to recreate?

And, the river is a focal point that can attract visitors to Downtown more than any other attraction if it is catered to. The Riverwalk and Emerald Trail are a start, but it isn't enough.  We need more space and variation for play spaces, pickup games, dog walking, gardens, meditative spaces, performance and visual arts, etc.  And, a place to host large events. When we hosted the Super Bowl in 2005, it was the vacant riverfront properties on both the Northbank and Southbank that hosted concerts, the NFL experience, and more.  If we want to host another Super Bowl or the NFL Draft, we are going to have to preserve these spaces to host tens or hundreds of thousands of people.

In addition, green spaces along the river serve as resiliency buffers to the inevitable flooding in our future.

Developers will add more value to Downtown by having these green amenities to compliment their developments.  Just look at any other city before us.  The taxes on that development will more than pay for our investment in these parks.

No city ever said they had too much park space, only too little.  Jax is under-parked, especially along our waterways, once you subtract the acreage in the massive Timucuan Preserve.  And, many of our "parks" are actually school playgrounds doubling as "parks" or odd pieces of right of way that have no other use.  Many cities have standards for parks being within a certain distance of each neighborhood and I doubt Jax would pass such a standard.

Lastly, parks need to be set aside before population expands as the land disappears quickly at that point.  We need to think decades into the future, not just today.  Jax falls way short on this type of planning and visioning.

Agreed on all fronts.

With the broken record caveat that we desperately need to make sure that fixed, permanent amenities are built alongside each park.

Shipyards West, for example, is bounded by the Berkman 2 parcel and Bay Street/Maxwell House. There's not really a lot of opportunities with the current landscape for supporting amenities to pop up on the periphery of the park. Following through on the construction of the food hall and restaurant and leasing slots to popular local restaurants (Safe Harbor, Angies, Southern Grounds, Firehouse, Mayday, whatever) gives the park a genuine draw, pulls users in from other areas, supports the museum district, and gives it a better shot of being a place you spend the day, rather than a place you spend an hour. Worries me when I hear the DIA floating food trucks as a long-term alternative to building out real space, though that was pre-CBA.

Ditto Riverfront Plaza. Following through on building the restaurant and beer garden there gives people a reason to go beyond recreation, or stay once they've finished recreating. If it's not built in the park, there's not a lot of options on the periphery.

Ditto James Weldon Johnson Park. Not on the riverfront, but same concept. Absent fixed amenities like restrooms and food, it stays a pass-through.

The greenspace/parkspace is lovely and badly needed for all the reasons listed above, but I think the supporting, differentiating amenities (with a portion of revenues going back into the parks for upkeep) are the difference between wildly successful riverfront parks, and parks that fail to sustain momentum.


thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2024, 10:37:18 AM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? That's one element of that park that has always been questionable to me. The previous plans I saw appear to have little involvement from people in the business of running these types of places. With all of our urban parks, from JWJ and LEVS to Riverfront Plaza, Shipyards and Friendship Fountain, I really wish the planning efforts would extend to the "outer square." If we took a more holistic look at planning and implementing these spaces, we'd begin to really see how F&B can best be designed and integrated into the urban environment in a manner that keeps the future business owner in business long term and reliant on subsidies to stay afloat.

With that said, I'm totally fine with moving these park projects forward.....and public restrooms are a must!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 10:52:50 AM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

fsu813

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2024, 03:54:09 PM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? 

No, not currently. Thus the current plan is to simply reserve an area of the park bordering Bay Street as a future development, TBA. Potentially a food hall or whatever else makes sense in the future.

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2024, 04:40:25 PM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? 

No, not currently. Thus the current plan is to simply reserve an area of the park bordering Bay Street as a future development, TBA. Potentially a food hall or whatever else makes sense in the future.

Viable today? Obviously not. Viable by the time that Shipyards West opens? I think it absolutely is. In four years, if all goes according to plan, we’ll have MOSH, Four Seasons, a refurbished event-centric Metro Park, the new six-story office building, and a new $1.4 billion stadium driving a ton of incremental traffic into that area. Aside from Intuition, there’s almost nothing there now from a F&B perspective, especially for the average family. Food Hall could be a key stop for people visiting the Orleck, or MOSH, or the park, or for hotel guests at the Four Seasons, or those attending events/festivals at Metro Park, or for boaters, or for workers at the new office building, or as a pregame or postgame spot for people catching events at the new stadium or refurbished baseball grounds, and it’s even close enough to service hotel/convention guests at the Hyatt and everyday downtown workers and residents. It’s also a much needed way to beat the Florida heat and take a break from the elements. To me, it’s the glue that holds everything together in that area, and I think it’s a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy/needless delay to building vibrancy to axe it from the short-term plan because it doesn’t make sense in 2024 rather than getting ahead of the forecasted future demand and building it alongside the park.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 04:48:59 PM by Ken_FSU »

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2024, 04:53:49 PM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? 

No, not currently. Thus the current plan is to simply reserve an area of the park bordering Bay Street as a future development, TBA. Potentially a food hall or whatever else makes sense in the future.
It totally makes sense to have green pad spaces for future amenities like F&B, museums and other attractions.  That's a common best practice. My view was more related to having people not in the F&B or food hall business selecting a random site in a random park to specifically be a food hall. That's a recipe for disaster. Unless there's a real operator willing to go in that location and in to the specific questionable design illustrated a few months back, it would be good to maintain some flexibility on future use.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 04:56:42 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

fsu813

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2024, 04:58:00 PM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? 

No, not currently. Thus the current plan is to simply reserve an area of the park bordering Bay Street as a future development, TBA. Potentially a food hall or whatever else makes sense in the future.

Viable today? Obviously not. Viable by the time that Shipyards West opens? I think it absolutely is. In four years, if all goes according to plan, we’ll have MOSH, Four Seasons, a refurbished event-centric Metro Park, the new six-story office building, and a new $1.4 billion stadium driving a ton of incremental traffic into that area. Aside from Intuition, there’s almost nothing there now from a F&B perspective, especially for the average family. Food Hall could be a key stop for people visiting the Orleck, or MOSH, or the park, or for hotel guests at the Four Seasons, or those attending events/festivals at Metro Park, or for boaters, or for workers at the new office building, or as a pregame or postgame spot for people catching events at the new stadium or refurbished baseball grounds, and it’s even close enough to service hotel/convention guests at the Hyatt and everyday downtown workers and residents. It’s also a much needed way to beat the Florida heat and take a break from the elements. To me, it’s the glue that holds everything together in that area, and I think it’s a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy/needless delay to building vibrancy to axe it from the short-term plan because it doesn’t make sense in 2024 rather than getting ahead of the forecasted future demand and building it alongside the park.

Forecasts are often inaccurate.

But this timeline for building a food hall there (or other small scale development) could change on a dime. Good to have that flexibility.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 05:00:37 PM by fsu813 »

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2024, 05:04:14 PM »
^While I agree that these spaces need to be activated with F&B and local businesses to draw people consistently, is a food hall even viable at Shipyards Park? 

No, not currently. Thus the current plan is to simply reserve an area of the park bordering Bay Street as a future development, TBA. Potentially a food hall or whatever else makes sense in the future.

Viable today? Obviously not. Viable by the time that Shipyards West opens? I think it absolutely is. In four years, if all goes according to plan, we’ll have MOSH, Four Seasons, a refurbished event-centric Metro Park, the new six-story office building, and a new $1.4 billion stadium driving a ton of incremental traffic into that area. Aside from Intuition, there’s almost nothing there now from a F&B perspective, especially for the average family. Food Hall could be a key stop for people visiting the Orleck, or MOSH, or the park, or for hotel guests at the Four Seasons, or those attending events/festivals at Metro Park, or for boaters, or for workers at the new office building, or as a pregame or postgame spot for people catching events at the new stadium or refurbished baseball grounds, and it’s even close enough to service hotel/convention guests at the Hyatt and everyday downtown workers and residents. It’s also a much needed way to beat the Florida heat and take a break from the elements. To me, it’s the glue that holds everything together in that area, and I think it’s a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy/needless delay to building vibrancy to axe it from the short-term plan because it doesn’t make sense in 2024 rather than getting ahead of the forecasted future demand and building it alongside the park.

All cool but what happens to the viability if another opened up privately elsewhere in downtown or as a part of one of the projects mentioned? Would COJ attempt to kill something else in an attempt to force something into a specific location that could take another decade to come to fruition, if ever?

I think it totally makes sense for F&B and other amenities in the park spaces. However, I fear that we go down a slippery slope when we get too specific in what the exact operation should be, where it should be located and how it should be designed. That's never worked well with DT's previous revitalization schemes.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2247
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2024, 05:26:10 PM »
Mark Woods in the Times-Union with his take on the stadium deal:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2024/05/17/jaguars-stadium-deal-couldve-been-worse-for-jacksonville/73730467007/

In my view the TU’s columnists including Nate Monroe have been relatively positive about the deal, even noting the cost. Biggest media opposition I’ve seen has been AG Gancarski at Florida Politics and a number of sports bloggers who anticipated the team having left the market.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Jax_Developer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2024, 07:33:14 AM »
Anybody who believes this is a 50/50 or a 55/45 deal needs to go back to school. This deal is nowhere near that split. It's much closer to 75/25 when you factor in when the money is being spent.

I've seen this 50/50 type thing touted by basically every news agency covering it. Actually comical.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34958
    • Modern Cities
Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2024, 09:15:10 AM »
^How does it compare with recent deals in other NFL markets of similar size? Good or bad?
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali