Author Topic: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development  (Read 2781 times)

Charles Hunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5072
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2024, 08:31:08 PM »
I've seen so much that I'm a huge pendulum swinger at this point - get rid of zoning, get rid of wetlands credits, get rid of regulations, just make it easier.  All of this has taken creativity out of the development industry, made things so cost prohibitive, and inserted heavy politics into every step of the process, and building things should not be this complicated.  In my opinion it's all very anti-human and it ultimately affects the working man more than the rich by elevating all of the costs and limiting supply.

Sounds like what I've heard about (but cannot confirm) about Houston. Houston aside - really NO zoning rules?


Charles Hunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5072
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2024, 08:33:50 PM »
About the 'mixed-use' development on the Southbank - my impression is the opposition is primarily to the mini-storage component. In other words, if this were a 10-story residential tower with ground-floor retail, there would be little to no opposition. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the rezoning the developer is seeking is because of the mini-storage. Perhaps, instead of starting with the mini-storage facility, and getting it rejected, and coming back a year later after grafting on a few floors of residential, he started with a residential project with some mini-storage included, he might be moving forward now.

Jax_Developer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2024, 08:48:15 AM »
I've seen so much that I'm a huge pendulum swinger at this point - get rid of zoning, get rid of wetlands credits, get rid of regulations, just make it easier.  All of this has taken creativity out of the development industry, made things so cost prohibitive, and inserted heavy politics into every step of the process, and building things should not be this complicated.  In my opinion it's all very anti-human and it ultimately affects the working man more than the rich by elevating all of the costs and limiting supply.

Sounds like what I've heard about (but cannot confirm) about Houston. Houston aside - really NO zoning rules?

Yeah Houston has no zoning ordinances. Hence why Houston might be the best example of a city with new construction middle housing in a Southeast State as of today. It's very common to see quad's or townhomes in between two single family home lots. They get away with it by having good checks & balances elsewhere.

To Simms point, Houston does have a lot of similarities to Jax in this very particular discussion. They are the second largest US City by land mass in the lower 48. They have wildly different neighborhoods with vastly different development patterns. Houston is basically the city that gobbled up the surrounding towns... hence the sheer amount of diversity in how the city was built made any singular code extremely hard to follow for everyone's benefit. It doesn't sound all that different from Jacksonville's situation to me, and maybe we could learn how Houston has implemented a no zoning approach with other checks & balances.

How things are currently, when you combine the COJ Zoning Code, COJ Subdivision Code, FDEP/SJWMD Code, the Florida Health Department Code, and a few other fun things like traffic code... they just don't interact well. It needs to be addressed but this conversation would involve so much political baggage it's extremely unlikely to ever happen. Hence, why housing here will continue to get more expensive, even though we saw record high deliveries the past several years.

The current multi-family delivery schedule will drop more than 60% in our metro by 2025, even more in 2026. Are we prepared for another pandemic-level rise in rents?

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34881
    • Modern Cities
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2024, 09:52:59 AM »
Houston has parking regulations, which pretty much forces certain types of uses in certain locations and areas of town. Many would still say that Houston is also a sprawling mess. However, if you want to see what Jax will be 30 years from now if every urban development dream we have actually came true......it would be present day Houston.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Captain Zissou

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4272
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2024, 09:55:48 AM »
Jax is really nuts.  Gotta lower those bars, a lot, here.  And it's a mentalities thing.  So many people with cringy opinions, such as Lofts at Southbank being way out of character at 10 stories, in the middle of downtown.  It truly is an "only in Jacksonville" thing.  I've never understood it and I'm multi-generational from here.
The only other thing I'll add is that all across the country anti-development sentiments are really growing.  "Neighborhood groups" are gaining a lot of power.  Preservation groups, etc.

I would hope that you're not trying to say that San Marco Preservation is against the 10 story aspect of the project, because that is not true.  SMPS welcomes increased density in the downtown area, but agrees with the DDRB staff that the building should have stepbacks or other mechanisms to help it better transition from the smaller uses around it. 

For me personally, I take greater issue with the 3 story Extended Stay across the street surrounded by surface parking.  At the time I'm sure it was a "if we don't let the developer do this then no one will ever want to build here" situation, but now that's 2 acres that is not adding to the vibrancy of the area.

Joey Mackey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 10:47:08 AM »
For me personally, I take greater issue with the 3 story Extended Stay across the street surrounded by surface parking.

Agree one hundred percent. That location could have easily been an apartment complex by now similar to Soba/Riverhouse/Artea and would have added so much more to the Southbank.

Joey Mackey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2024, 11:03:11 AM »
Also, for what it is worth, Houston isn't some laisse-faire free for all when it comes to land use and development. People that live in Houston can still designate a neighborhood as a historical neighborhood with all the familiar restrictions that come with that. So, the problems people perceive from the San Marco/Riverside etc. historical overlay can exist in Houston as well. https://planning.org/planning/2020/jan/the-z-word/

Jax_Developer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2024, 11:49:38 AM »
https://jaxtoday.org/2024/02/20/opinion-southbank-storage-units-are-a-bad-deal/

"Further, the size of the building, 10 stories, is vastly out of scale with surrounding buildings, which do not exceed five stories. In fact, this 10-story building, with roughly half of its frontage made up of blank, windowless walls, directly abuts the oldest remaining residential building from the city of South Jacksonville — 1451 Home St., built in 1909."

This is the reference a few of us have on the whole 10-stories attitude that has been going around. I Agree with you though Captain, the Extended Stay is the biggest offender in the Southbank lol.

--

As it relates to Houston, I'm simply saying that the interaction of our zoning code with the various other codes makes the effective build product here very one dimensional. I'm not saying having zero regulation makes sense, but does our zoning code combined with everything else really make sense? I'd strongly argue no.

There are still plenty of areas in Houston with deed restrictions, whether that's Historic, HOA or something else... that act similarly to zoning in these situations... nonetheless it doesn't change the point that Houston has removed their zoning code, and has allowed other code to act as necessary backstops against poor developments.

Also, Houston is top 3 in our country on building duplex, triplex, quadplex & townhome units. So, they have figured something out... the only MSA's competing with them is Dallas, TX & Phoenix AZ.

(ADDED)Some more interesting insight: https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-and-everywhere-else-lot-size-matters
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 12:07:24 PM by Jax_Developer »

Charles Hunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5072
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2024, 11:56:02 AM »
At least this person's problem is with the storage units, from a WJXT story. Granted, he does not represent all the opinions on the project, but it is a data point.

Quote
“It’ll create a problem we don’t need to create at this point,” President of Peninsula Condominium Association Jeff Schembera said.

Schembera said he wants people to consider the tight space in this location.

“When you add in 100 new apartments which is fine. But then you add in five or 600 storage units it’s really going to be tight. You are talking about large vehicles, moving vans…When they deliver food, the restaurants and the chefs over there, they park in the middle of the street right now – where are they going to park when you have moving vans here,” Schembera said.

He’s also concerned if this is approved, it will attract more storage units to this area.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/04/08/were-fighting-a-good-fight-san-marco-residents-keep-pushing-back-against-planed-self-storage-unit/

jaxjags

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2024, 12:40:17 PM »
https://jaxtoday.org/2024/02/20/opinion-southbank-storage-units-are-a-bad-deal/

"Further, the size of the building, 10 stories, is vastly out of scale with surrounding buildings, which do not exceed five stories. In fact, this 10-story building, with roughly half of its frontage made up of blank, windowless walls, directly abuts the oldest remaining residential building from the city of South Jacksonville — 1451 Home St., built in 1909."


I have said this before, but I guess not many Jaxons have been to Peachtree Street north of DT ATL.

Florida Power And Light

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
Re: Why the attitudes around zoning hinder Jacksonville's Development
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2024, 09:10:45 PM »
Jacksonville is Imploding…..