Author Topic: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed  (Read 4572 times)

thelakelander

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Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« on: September 29, 2023, 07:54:27 AM »
Quote
A look at five Downtown projects under construction and four facing an uncertain future.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/29/downtown-development-update-whats-rising-whats-not/
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Ken_FSU

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2023, 10:09:57 AM »
Sounds like the American Lions plan is dead, the city doesn't have money in the CIP for the second phase of Riverfront Park, and any centerpiece sculpture at the site will need to privately funded.

Another well executed plan.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.
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jaxoNOLE

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2023, 12:29:25 PM »
The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Re: American Lions, is the Deegan administration's opposition to funding the construction loan being driven by the lack of confidence in the estimated construction cost? It makes sense that the CIP would not include phase 2 funding if the administration doesn't believe the tower development will happen as planned. This project could still happen in some form, though: I liked the idea of a renderings graveyard for the signature art piece. How many "Landings" can you install on the civic steps?

marcuscnelson

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2023, 01:15:34 PM »
Interesting to see the Daily Review doing an update.

The Four Seasons seems to be happening which is good. Hopefully it'll help lay out some commitment so that the final stadium deal isn't too bad.

The Trio seems to be suffering as a project, and it doesn't strike me as especially feasible at this point. Council has to decide if they want to go ahead for the sake of getting the building done or let it get pushed to an indeterminate future.

Johnson Commons and the park seem to be going alright. It'll always be a shame that they didn't win over Vestcor in the beginning and avoid the delay but what's done is done, it's happening.

Doro is closing in on completion, shame it couldn't go anywhere else but again, what's done is done.

Curious what delays FDOT caused with McCoys Creek that have affected One Riverside, and why.

The Southbank project doesn't give me much confidence. A $15 million gap seems pretty concerning. Not to mention the park construction next to it has been effectively dormant.

Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.

It sounds to me like altogether it's something in the $70-80 million range now. If I recall correctly the second phase is supposed to cost about the same as the first, with the statue another several million on top of that, but also that doesn't really factor for apparently needing the tower as part of the structure for the park. I would expect that Sleiman's proposal was fully based on the political and economic environment of 2015, and that given the pandemic and inflation and interest rates that have come into play since wouldn't pencil out anymore without a near-equivalent incentive anyway. Not to mention probably just not wanting to stick his head out downtown after what happened to Brown, even with ultimately making money getting out of the Landing.
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Jax_Developer

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2023, 02:05:37 PM »
The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Reason number xxxx why Jacksonville has a bad wrap for big development. You get a big one actually moving forward, and you fumble the bag. Crazy. I'd be salty.

fsu813

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

fsu813

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

Charles Hunter

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2023, 04:13:46 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

Would that $50MM include the pedestrian ramp up to the Main Street Bridge? If I remember correctly, the private developer was supposed to build some or all of that structure/embankment.

Skybox111

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2023, 05:27:56 PM »
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there’re also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn’t happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years. Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn’t want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can’t fund projects.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2023, 05:31:10 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

$200 million for a park is a lot of money. However, when we're talking about transformational spaces, they cost a pretty penny. Otherwise, what we're currently investing will make the existing spaces better. But they won't result in the type of quality or economic payoff that most proponents have advocated for. To get there simply cost money and requires a will to invest in the infrastructure. Eventually, we'll get there with these spaces. However, getting there will take a decade plus more, than if we just had stayed the course back in 2014. Even then, we're not promised that the final product will attract more people to this space than a Landing on its last legs did. So it will be important to plan from a holistic perspective moving forward.
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thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2023, 05:41:21 PM »
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there’re also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn’t happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years.

Perhaps there's no market for a 44-story tower in this space, irresponsible to put taxpayer money into a losing proposition and/or there are better things with a higher ROI worth investing public money into at the moment.

Quote
Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn’t want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can’t fund projects.

I think our reality is, that there's only so much money you can give away. So some prioritization is needed. Jags want one billion, Gateway wants $135 million, Trio wants millions, RCB wants millions, everybody wants public money. Our reality is that we can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. We can't go back and correct the mistakes of the past, but we can learn from other cities on how to develop first tier public spaces. We're going to have to phase the implementation and be really smart and intentional about it.  If we can do that, when the market improves, we'll be in a better position for more market rate infill development.
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Jax_Developer

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2023, 05:50:23 PM »
I'm over any new Riverfront park space. There are ways to implement greenery within private use spaces. It's called covenants & restrictions to deed. Pretty simple. We also have already dedicated like 80% of the Northbank's riverfront space to "parks" when DT is a ghost town. Nobody talks about the upkeep costs of several dozen acres of Riverfront space. Going to be a financial nightmare until DT reaches critical mass to not make these homeless camps.

Again, nobody cares to question why downtown is a pit of money & how we can change that. Gateway is a silver bullet right now... it'd look pretty bleak otherwise.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2023, 06:02:42 PM »
The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, shoddy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 11:03:43 PM by thelakelander »
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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2023, 09:38:16 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/
I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

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