Author Topic: Controversial Southbank self storage project back  (Read 2491 times)

fsu813

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2023, 01:34:41 PM »
Have there been other PUD's approved within the Downtown Zoning Overlay? I don't recall any....

Jax_Developer

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2023, 03:50:10 PM »
Have there been other PUD's approved within the Downtown Zoning Overlay? I don't recall any....

Since the formation of CBD & CCBD, I don't think so. They are old PUD's grandfathered into the area. Given the immense flexibility of the two designations, there really hasn't been any need. I think this one is unique because this is one of the few uses which is allowable under a PUD, but not the CBD & CCBD zoning & land use designations.

fsu813

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2023, 04:06:24 PM »
Have there been other PUD's approved within the Downtown Zoning Overlay? I don't recall any....

Since the formation of CBD & CCBD, I don't think so. They are old PUD's grandfathered into the area. Given the immense flexibility of the two designations, there really hasn't been any need. I think this one is unique because this is one of the few uses which is allowable under a PUD, but not the CBD & CCBD zoning & land use designations.

Didn't think so.

That's a point to harp on. Does COJ want to open the doors to developers X, Y and Z bringing whatever projects they fancy up for approval, whenever they like? Each one would be a battle to some degree, and the COJ decision makers on these issues don't especially like public battles.

fieldafm

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2023, 05:17:17 PM »
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The DIA incentives do help, and I think they play an important role. But, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of parking. 75% Rev grants and facade grants really don’t come close when you underwrite these deals.

With all due respect, you are incorrect.  Without the revamped DIA program, there is a 30% hole in the proforma for every one of the historic renovation projects currently under construction in the Northbank.

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Again the problem here, as I see it are really these key item.

- Self Storage should be banned entirely in the DDRB zone, or force those projects to be mixed-use. (And not just ground-floor retail)
- Jax planning needs to find more creative solutions for parking credits/discounts in this part of town. (I was wrong earlier, there literally is not a higher & better use for this property with this setup in mind)
- Just because there is a nice facade, doesn’t mean we should allow projects that will inherently allow for more.

I agree on points one and three.  On point two, Code now allows for shared parking (in Downtown only). There are three buildings which will be undergoing renovation soon that will have such arrangements.  Again, several adaptive reuse projects Downtown have been granted complete parking deviations in the past, and new builds within Downtown's broader borders receive parking reductions through the administrative deviations process. I can't think of any new builds in the last 15 years which didn't receive parking reductions, but I'm also not wasting a lot of time thinking about it.  Can the parking ratios continue to be refined Downtown? To an extent, yes.  Hell, there are a lot of things with the zoning rewrite a few years ago that should be made better.  Is three parking spaces for a three bedroom unit excessive? Yes. Should you be able to build a quad in LaVilla or the Cathedral District and not provide parking? Absolutely, yes.  There are enough options for residents of smaller projects to act as true parking consumers and choose their own parking arrangements either in existing garages or surface lots that offer monthly parking rates. But, I also couldn't wrap my head around having three new 400-unit apartment or condo buildings constructed with no on-site parking, either.  You still need a car when living Downtown- this I know from personal experience as both a resident and a property owner.   JWB bought the Florida Baptist parking garage specifically to support their future infill projects North of Ashley Street, as an example of a creative (and insanely cheap) way to deal with their future parking needs.

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Take the RISE project near the Stadium as a perfect example. That project is not feasible with today’s interest.

That's apples to oranges to the parking question.  With today's rates, they'd likely have to increase the intensity of the building and likely lose out on some equity in favor of their current private equity partner (maybe even lose out on some of the retail space).   

Both Iconic's Doro redevelopment previously approved, and RISE's Doro infill project both received parking reductions, FWIW.   

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Now good luck getting that parking agreement… unless you know someone.

I think we very much agree on why self-storage shouldn't (and already doesn't) be allowed for this particular site, so I'll cry uncle on the parking talk. Its an interesting discussion that likely deserves its own thread. But, I have two such agreements, so they are feasible and available.   



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Have there been other PUD's approved within the Downtown Zoning Overlay?

There are quite a few PUDs Downtown, in fact there are two located a block away from the self-storage site (San Marco Place PUD and the St. Johns PUD- encompassing The Strand, Peninsula and the never-built Vu).  None have been put in place since the most recent formation of the DIA, although you could argue that the RiversEdge DRI is like a PUD. Additionally, the Jaguars' Shipyards project received a blanket rezoning that included an existing PUD.



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If this is approved, it won’t be the last.

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Does COJ want to open the doors to developers X, Y and Z bringing whatever projects they fancy up for approval, whenever they like? Each one would be a battle to some degree, and the COJ decision makers on these issues don't especially like public battles.

100% agree on both points.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 05:33:15 PM by fieldafm »

Jax_Developer

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2023, 05:45:43 PM »
You can't build something that does not fit code. What I am saying is the expense to bring in parking to the projects in the core of the Northbank makes them unfeasible (with or without incentives) if they were forced to provide structured parking! The easing on regulations in the Northbank has allowed for these projects to now become feasible. I don't think that is a crazy statement. The incentives were there before this ordinance was passed. As previously mentioned, there were exemptions made for higher profile projects before the DIA passed legislation for such reductions.

We agree on the fact that this project doesn't make sense here. My emphasis is on the fact that this particular build is the literal highest & best use from a development angle. I just can't see how any other use or user could compete with the intensity of these projects. That needs to be highlighted. How do we allow other more intense uses in our downtown?


marcuscnelson

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2023, 10:32:34 PM »
Quote
Again the problem here, as I see it are really these key item.

- Self Storage should be banned entirely in the DDRB zone, or force those projects to be mixed-use. (And not just ground-floor retail)
- Jax planning needs to find more creative solutions for parking credits/discounts in this part of town. (I was wrong earlier, there literally is not a higher & better use for this property with this setup in mind)
- Just because there is a nice facade, doesn’t mean we should allow projects that will inherently allow for more.

I agree on points one and three.  On point two, Code now allows for shared parking (in Downtown only). There are three buildings which will be undergoing renovation soon that will have such arrangements.  Again, several adaptive reuse projects Downtown have been granted complete parking deviations in the past, and new builds within Downtown's broader borders receive parking reductions through the administrative deviations process. I can't think of any new builds in the last 15 years which didn't receive parking reductions, but I'm also not wasting a lot of time thinking about it.  Can the parking ratios continue to be refined Downtown? To an extent, yes.  Hell, there are a lot of things with the zoning rewrite a few years ago that should be made better.  Is three parking spaces for a three bedroom unit excessive? Yes. Should you be able to build a quad in LaVilla or the Cathedral District and not provide parking? Absolutely, yes.  There are enough options for residents of smaller projects to act as true parking consumers and choose their own parking arrangements either in existing garages or surface lots that offer monthly parking rates. But, I also couldn't wrap my head around having three new 400-unit apartment or condo buildings constructed with no on-site parking, either.  You still need a car when living Downtown- this I know from personal experience as both a resident and a property owner.   JWB bought the Florida Baptist parking garage specifically to support their future infill projects North of Ashley Street, as an example of a creative (and insanely cheap) way to deal with their future parking needs.


…did you say north of Ashley Street?
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thelakelander

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2023, 06:32:30 AM »
Yes, they've acquired property north of Ashley, in the vicinity of the First Baptist garages. One property is the FBC warehouse on Pearl between Beaver and Ashley.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2023, 09:11:21 AM »
Interesting. Until checking the map it did not occur to me how many blocks between Broad and Julia streets (north or just south of Ashley) are mostly or even completely vacant. Lot of room out there.
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thelakelander

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2023, 09:31:22 AM »
Yes, there's a great opportunity to cluster infill development in that area. It's in the Northbank and has visibility to heavy traffic on State & Union with structured parking already in place.
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thelakelander

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2023, 09:39:24 AM »
Quote
The DIA incentives do help, and I think they play an important role. But, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of parking. 75% Rev grants and facade grants really don’t come close when you underwrite these deals.

With all due respect, you are incorrect.  Without the revamped DIA program, there is a 30% hole in the proforma for every one of the historic renovation projects currently under construction in the Northbank.

Up to 40% locally plus 20% via tax credits. So 60% of development costs for projects involving buildings that are both locally landmarked and on the National Register.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Jax_Developer

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2023, 10:42:26 AM »
Quote
The DIA incentives do help, and I think they play an important role. But, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of parking. 75% Rev grants and facade grants really don’t come close when you underwrite these deals.

With all due respect, you are incorrect.  Without the revamped DIA program, there is a 30% hole in the proforma for every one of the historic renovation projects currently under construction in the Northbank.

Up to 40% locally plus 20% via tax credits. So 60% of development costs for projects involving buildings that are both locally landmarked and on the National Register.

Yup, allowing Historic Incentives to be utilized is much more significant than DIA REV & facade grants. The task of accumulating adjacent undeveloped parcels for parking next to historic buildings is a needle in a hay stack activity. The parking exemption is essentially a must have, prior to the lengthy process of entitling and getting qualified for the credits. The time really adds up. Makes the project that much less likely. Also creates a valve on what is allowed. Not good for outside investment. The DIA played its role here in allowing this investment type to open up.

Ken_FSU

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2023, 01:11:46 PM »
Quote
The DIA incentives do help, and I think they play an important role. But, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of parking. 75% Rev grants and facade grants really don’t come close when you underwrite these deals.

With all due respect, you are incorrect.  Without the revamped DIA program, there is a 30% hole in the proforma for every one of the historic renovation projects currently under construction in the Northbank.

Up to 40% locally plus 20% via tax credits. So 60% of development costs for projects involving buildings that are both locally landmarked and on the National Register.

What do you guys think the difference is between the other historic renovations that have broken ground in the last two years in the CBD and the Laura Street Trio? Between the revamped DIA program, tax credits, VyStar taking on the parking garage themselves, and strong occupancy numbers for downtown residential, is there something inherent to the project that's not immediately obvious that makes it financially unviable versus the others, or are the holdups and issues on the developer's end (e.g. can't get financing, unwillingness to put significant skin in the game)? Would you expect the Trio project to already be underway if another developer owned the property?

Jax_Developer

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2023, 03:17:00 PM »
My only guess is that they are having troubles with the financial underwriting. There isn't currently another property to reliably comp rents off of. The current product is either dated, fixed-income or condos that people rent out. Right now my guess is the developer is being conservative one way, and the banks are the other way creating some gap in their desired terms. I bet the ownership group is waiting for either more favorable terms or for another project to begin lease up to reliably underwrite rents/income for the $50M+ loan. Another group might have been more bullish but its hard to say.

Captain Zissou

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2023, 03:23:21 PM »
I heard from a councilperson that the Trio will be back in the next 60 days and should succeed this time.

thelakelander

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Re: Controversial Southbank self storage project back
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2023, 06:06:11 PM »

What do you guys think the difference is between the other historic renovations that have broken ground in the last two years in the CBD and the Laura Street Trio?

I believe the project's cost has dramatically risen over time. That's one of the major reasons.
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