Author Topic: World Golf Hall of Fame closing in St. Augustine to move back to North Carolina  (Read 15267 times)

marcuscnelson

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Here’s an article about the purchase of the commercial space a few years ago. $4 million seems awfully cheap.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/shops-at-world-golf-village-sold-for-dollar4m
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

jaxlongtimer

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I think St. Johns County should look at running a free or nominal fee hourly shuttle from the WGV to Downtown St. Augustine.  This has several advantages.  It helps eliminate the perpetual parking and traffic problems in downtown St. Augustine, it helps pull more people off of I-95 to visit St. Augustine, it provides a larger number of people to shop in the "village" adding value to the tax rolls and real estate and it provides an activity/amenity to attract more conventions to the convention center.  Going one step further, add shuttle stops at the St. Augustine Amphitheater, lighthouse and Anastasia Island State Park, for even more reasons to convene at the WGV site.

If successful, maybe Visit Jax and JTA could be inspired to do something similar around Jax  ;D.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 06:48:28 PM by jaxlongtimer »

Tacachale

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I used to deliver mail there when I worked in the PGATOUR mailroom in college. It was always a poor location. I guess hindsight is 20-20 but they picked the one part of either St. Johns or Duval County that never took off. Plus it was about as far as it could be from the airport and every other attraction in the region.
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Todd_Parker

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If the entire complex at WGV is shuttered/slated for redevelopment, the Imax theater should be incorporated into the new MOSH facility downtown.

marcuscnelson

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St. Johns County is planning town halls to discuss future plans for World Golf Village.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/27/st-johns-to-hold-town-hall-meetings-on-future-of-world-golf-hall-of-fame-site/

Sun-Ray Cinema has expressed an interest in taking over the IMAX theater. The county has created a website for public involvement.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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I think St. Johns County should look at running a free or nominal fee hourly shuttle from the WGV to Downtown St. Augustine.  This has several advantages.  It helps eliminate the perpetual parking and traffic problems in downtown St. Augustine, it helps pull more people off of I-95 to visit St. Augustine, it provides a larger number of people to shop in the "village" adding value to the tax rolls and real estate and it provides an activity/amenity to attract more conventions to the convention center.  Going one step further, add shuttle stops at the St. Augustine Amphitheater, lighthouse and Anastasia Island State Park, for even more reasons to convene at the WGV site.

If successful, maybe Visit Jax and JTA could be inspired to do something similar around Jax  ;D.

"Fun" fact, it's not quite hourly (more like 2-and-a-half-hourly), and it stops at Buccee's instead of deviating all the way into WGV, but St. Johns County's Sunshine Bus does actually run their Purple Line to that area on its way to Palencia. Here's the schedule:



County leads need to look no further than Orlando's Baldwin Park for what to do with this space... Fill in some of the parking with condos and apartments, add a grocery store, convert a store into a drug store, and the rest will fill in naturally. This could turn into a major tax stream if they do it right, due to it's ease of access and nearby amenities.

Pretty much this, frankly. They're already developing suburbs around it, this could be the one spot in that area with an urban core and do pretty well once amenities like the theater and perhaps a new museum tenant get back on their feet. There used to be a Publix near the entrance that ended up moving down the street to Murabella, getting a lot of housing in that area would really make the case for a grocer to return, whether Aldi or another brand.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

tufsu1

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^ The purple line used to run up to the Avenues Mall, where it connected with JTA service

marcuscnelson

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Update after the public meetings the last few days.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/28/epic-theaters-interested-in-world-golf-hall-of-fame-imax/

Two theaters asking to take over the IMAX, two churches (including one already operating at WGV) talking about opening or expanding there, mention of the idea of a new middle school. However:

Quote
Most people commenting during both sessions said they own homes or condominiums in the World Golf Village area. Many said they moved there to retire because the area is focused on golf, with two 18-hole courses, a golf resort and convention hotel and the Hall of Fame.

Keeping the IMAX Theater in operation received unanimous support from residents, as did the necessity to avoid doing anything that would add to traffic in the area.

Several residents cited the opening of Buc-ee’s, a convenience store with 104 fueling stations, across the street from the World Golf Village entrance that leads to their neighborhoods as already causing too much traffic.

Comment suggesting opening a public middle school at World Golf Village were balanced by other residents opposed because of the traffic it would likely bring.

[…]

Comment against another church also focused on traffic issues, particularly Wednesday evenings and on Sundays when services are conducted.

Suggests to me the interest is going to lean towards just letting the area decline for the sake of NIMBYism, which seems like a real shame.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

jaxlongtimer

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^ As someone that confronts so much traffic in a residential (rural when we moved there) area that it takes more time than not to navigate it, including street lights that are now timed for multiple minutes before changing and non-lighted intersections that don't offer traffic breaks for minutes at a time, I consider this a legitimate issue.

Nothing is more frustrating than spending an inordinate amount of time in traffic due to poorly managed overbuilding/overdevelopment, with no alternative to work around it.  Residents are often powerless to push back since developers own NE Florida.

Resisting traffic from a Buc-cees, Costco, church or private school isn't going to lead to the decline of a car-oriented suburb where the residents commute out of the area for employment, shopping, activities and the "school or church of their choice."  Black Hammock Island is about as remote as you can get around here and, from what I have read, homes there are selling for record prices.  People maybe actually be paying a premium to run away from development and traffic.

I might add that traffic creation often brings other issues like noise (try living near a busy road nowadays), pollution, delays of emergency vehicles, safety issues for walkers, bikers and kids, more accidents, road rage and transient traffic that is just passing through with no value-add.

I expect more and more NIMBYism as our population grows via unbridled development.  One day, Marcus, you may even join their ranks  8).  LOL, you may also find as you "age," you put ever greater value on your time on this earth and sitting in traffic is not how you want to spend big chunks of it.
 
Rather than blame residents, we need to blame, as is usually done on the Jaxson, the real culprits: JTA, FDOT, city planners and rubber-stamp public officials who don't provide for multiple good community movements (mass transit, walkable neighborhoods, safe bicycle pathways, etc.) when developing our communities.

marcuscnelson

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I don't think anything we have in Florida can be considered "overdevelopment" on any scale of density. You do, however, perfectly demonstrated the inherent limitations of suburbanization. You just said the area you moved to was initially rural. Presumably other people made that same decision. Are we from a public policy standpoint supposed to decide that because you happened to move first the entire area is supposed to be encased in amber for your driving pleasure?

Your mention of Black Hammock Island also exemplifies the cycle of suburbs. First it was Arlington and Murray Hill, then Baymeadows and the Southside, then San Pablo and St. Johns and Fleming Island, and now Governors Park and Wildlight and Silverleaf and perhaps Black Hammock. The new single family homes get built further and further away, and (save for certain enclaves) the investment moves further and further outside the city itself. Arlington was originally a brand new suburb, and now it's an area with a CRA that needs it. Eventually the place gets old, and developers build new houses elsewhere (because those suburbs don't allow infill in place) and the investment moves elsewhere.

I certainly agree that officials in this region have failed to deliver on things like mass transit or better walkability, but the people opposing things like trying to leverage the already-extant investment in World Golf Village aren't asking for that, they're asking to just leave things as they are. More often than not, the kinds of people opposing any additions to WGV are the same ones claiming that mass transit would bring crime, or that roads pay for themselves, or that changing anything would bring too much traffic.

I can't say I see myself joining the ranks of NIMBYism, because it's too easy to look at places like California to see what NIMBYism has led to: unaffordable housing, residents being pushed completely out of the state, college students declared pollution by courts. St. Johns already has some of the highest median housing prices in the state, and refusing to build at all is only going to make that much, much worse.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

jaxlongtimer

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^Marcus, when people invest in a living space/place, they are buying into a certain environment.  Naturally, if someone works to change that environment, you can expect resistance in most cases.  It's about managing expectations and human nature.

Moving on, there is only so much real estate and they aren't making any more of it (other than, maybe, if a volcano's lava flows to the sea).  Meanwhile, population continues to increase.  The laws of supply and demand indicate that if you have fixed supply and growing demand, pricing is going to increase.  Yes, you can slow or defer increases with increased efficiencies, in this case, greater densities.  We do need to recognize that there are limits, too, to increasing density and, one day, the only way to reduce pricing is to reduce demand which will only be accomplished by limiting population growth.  In some world cities, that breaking point may be here or approaching. By example, Manhattan is likely the epitome of near maximum density so not sure how many more people can be crammed into there.  As a result, I wouldn't expect to ever see "affordable" housing there. 

I have no problem with greater densities but that is not for every situation or for everyone.  And, there are trade offs and limits to density.  For some, they consider it a life style/quality of life issue... that is, some want to live in the middle of nowhere and, per above, others want to live in the heart of Manhattan.  Different strokes for different folks.

So, it is not unreasonable that their is going to be push back from some quarters in this regard.  You see this in zoning fights and expanding resistance to growing traffic generators.

The best way to drive increased density is to provide mass transit and walkability options and incentivize it vs. subsidizing lower density as we mostly do now in Florida and much of the U.S.  These are public policy and city planning initiatives, not neighborhood ones. Those who value time and affordability will voluntarily pursue density at that point without it being forced upon them.

If we had appropriate leadership, we would implement in the urban core/downtown consistent street level zoning, walkable streets, plentiful greenspaces and robust mass transit that works (not fantasy AV's).  At the same time, we should stop adding lanes to existing roads or building new ones for developers that encourage urban sprawl.  It's not rocket science.  Do this and the increase in density will take care of itself.  When I have visited cities in foreign countries, I have seen how well this works.  Not so much in the U.S.

Most of the above is "Mom and apple pie" and it is frustrating that we don't see our leadership being effective in this regard.  I think this is where we can all find the most agreement  8).


thelakelander

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People need to do their homework, if they are concerned about traffic at that interchange. It was always supposed to be a busy area. Years ago, St Johns was dreaming of it becoming a comparable to Town Center. Buccee's should be the least of their worries. There's a lot more approved and zoned to come. Imagine if WGI had been a success and was built out as originally planned. It would be a complete cluster.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

jaxlongtimer

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People need to do their homework, if they are concerned about traffic at that interchange. It was always supposed to be a busy area. Years ago, St Johns was dreaming of it becoming a comparable to Town Center. Buccee's should be the least of their worries. There's a lot more approved and zoned to come. Imagine if WGI had been a success and was built out as originally planned. It would be a complete cluster.

Agree with this.  I always tell family and friends to be cautious buying a house near vacant land as you never know what will happen next.  If you move into a subdivision surrounded by farms or forests, you can bet more subdivisions will be built on that land and you need to be prepared for the related traffic. 

My comments were more about adding development beyond what is the projected character of the area.  If it was tradition that an area was hosting neighborhood strip centers and I got a Costco, Bass Pro Shops and Buc-cees instead that generate far more traffic being regional destinations, I would say that is subject to question.  If you have ever been around the Costco's in Duval you know that traffic can back up into major roads with no way to get around it adding much time to your travels, even if it is just to get from one side of their entry point to the other.

thelakelander

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A decade ago, they were hoping that the Costco, Buc-cees, etc. would be a shopping center that would rival St. Johns Town Center. That would have dumped more traffic than one could ever imagine at that interchange. Same goes for the original WGV and the hall of fame. If it were developed with the amount of retail and dining proposed, it would be a nightmare today. The FLU has suggested that this would be a regional center of impact, at some point, for decades. No one should be surprised or fill tricked about a Buc-cees or Costco opening up. Expect more to come.

No matter what they come up with out there, I hope it includes a more robust arterial roadway network and something that crosses I-95, allowing people an alternative to International Golf Parkway.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 07:29:54 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali