Author Topic: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing  (Read 8664 times)

CityLife

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Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« on: September 07, 2021, 04:37:17 PM »
In typical Jacksonville fashion, it looks like the redevelopment plans for the old Landing are turning into a procedural and political debacle. It appears that nothing will get built on the site for a couple years at best. Rather than let the property sit and do nothing, why not at least temporarily activate the space? I was just in Miami last week and there are two very popular, low cost waterfront dining/entertainment locations. They are basically less permanent version's of Sparkman's Wharf in Tampa.

https://riverside.miami/

Riverside Miami is on the Miami River, on the north tip of Brickell. It looks like it could be constructed in a weekend, but has enough bells and whistles that it's a nice spot to grab a drink or bite to eat with friends. It's only open Thursday-Sunday.








https://wharfmiami.com/

The Wharf is also on the Miami River, but is located in a less appealing spot, west of 95 and not too far from Miami skid row (think State and Union corridor level of homeless). It's also only open Thursday-Sunday and looks like it could be built in a very short time frame.








Would Jax be better off issuing an RFP for something like this for a small portion of the Landing site, for period of 3-5 years, while permanent plans are refined?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 04:41:31 PM by CityLife »

WarDamJagFan

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 05:15:08 PM »
Careful with this.... an unsuspecting City Councilman/woman/he/she/it/whatever (gotta cover all the basis right?) might find a new reason to launch a new review committee. The committee will then meet once every 5 months to discuss what was discussed previously and to eventually put an RFP for tent and table providers by 2025. The goal would be to have a tent provider locked in by 2028 and by 2030 will start looking for vendors to go underneath the tent. By 2040, the committee will be disbanded and the lawn will continue to carry Lenny's legacy.

Adam White

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 05:21:38 PM »
Careful with this.... an unsuspecting City Councilman/woman/he/she/it/whatever (gotta cover all the basis right?) might find a new reason to launch a new review committee. The committee will then meet once every 5 months to discuss what was discussed previously and to eventually put an RFP for tent and table providers by 2025. The goal would be to have a tent provider locked in by 2028 and by 2030 will start looking for vendors to go underneath the tent. By 2040, the committee will be disbanded and the lawn will continue to carry Lenny's legacy.

bases.
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thelakelander

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2021, 05:55:39 PM »
Unfortunately, it would take them just as long to do this as it would to build a park. This outcome was so predictable and avoidable. Tearing down perfectly fine facilities for what's described above, with no plan in place to immediately move forward, should have told the average person that this was destined to become a fiasco. At this point, they need to try and build something with the money already allocated. Something like the examples above can be short term amenities within that space. Yet even in this scenario, there's a question of who should do the design since this alternative path isn't what the competition was based upon.
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jaxjags

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2021, 06:18:52 PM »
Not in Charlotte

fieldafm

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2021, 06:35:52 PM »
In typical Jacksonville fashion, it looks like the redevelopment plans for the old Landing are turning into a procedural and political debacle. It appears that nothing will get built on the site for a couple years at best. Rather than let the property sit and do nothing, why not at least temporarily activate the space? I was just in Miami last week and there are two very popular, low cost waterfront dining/entertainment locations. They are basically less permanent version's of Sparkman's Wharf in Tampa.

https://riverside.miami/

Riverside Miami is on the Miami River, on the north tip of Brickell. It looks like it could be constructed in a weekend, but has enough bells and whistles that it's a nice spot to grab a drink or bite to eat with friends. It's only open Thursday-Sunday.








https://wharfmiami.com/

The Wharf is also on the Miami River, but is located in a less appealing spot, west of 95 and not too far from Miami skid row (think State and Union corridor level of homeless). It's also only open Thursday-Sunday and looks like it could be built in a very short time frame.








Would Jax be better off issuing an RFP for something like this for a small portion of the Landing site, for period of 3-5 years, while permanent plans are refined?


In 2018, I met with SMG (who operates facilities such as the Times Union Performing Arts Center, Ritz Theater, Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena, etc) about a proposal that was based on The Wharf in Miami and the summertime Spruce Street Harbor Park beer garden in Philadelphia.  SMG was in the midst of a one year contract extension to continue operating those COJ facilities, and were told to find ways to increase the amount of activity at those venues.  This is an opportunity to create an easy, win/win partnership.

My proposal was to open a Wharf-like installation on the very large open space in between the TUPAC and the Northbank Riverwalk.. which already has such things like electrical hookups, shade trees, etc... and would have required a small extension of premises for SMG's existing alcohol license.  There would have been a 5 year commercial lease, that would have paid rent, with a performance guarantee to have the space open in 60 days from signing the contract. There would have been a provision to cancel the lease early, if and when COJ would ever want to do physical work to the space (as there were certain known/desired work products that would have required access if those construction projects received funding).

SMG was on board. 

The DIA told SMG to stop pursuing this option.  The excuse given was that there were IMMINENT plans to make vast improvements to the space... you know, this thing that has been talked about for 5 years now.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/projections-of-livestreamed-performances-could-come-to-downtown-jacksonville/867214644/

Mind you, the agreement would have allowed COJ to tell me to pack up and leave if/when those plans ever materialized, but in the meantime you'd have a NO-COST and REVENUE GENERATING activation of the riverfront in a matter of months. 

SMG did not want to push the issue and rock the political boat, given that their contract renewal was on a year-long extension.  I don't blame them. They in the business of continuing to be in business, after all.

But when we talk about why Downtown suffers... the bottom line is that politics are what's holding Downtown back.  Its not about ideas, or attracting investment, or actually taking action.  No, its about making sure you line the pockets of your buddies, and not making yourself look bad when you are getting paid well to revitalize Downtown (or at least that's what your job description says). 

That's four lost years of something happening along the riverfront Downtown.  Why? Because someone didn't want to look bad at doing their job? 
Earlier this year, the bulkhead repair work that was known about since 2016, took over that space. If my contract was in place, that could have been cancelled so as to allow for the contractors to fix the bulkheads.  But, at least from 2018-2021, there would have been more activity there than just a few bums sleeping on the benches.

This weekend, Packers and Saints fans are coming into Jacksonville to watch a football game and will wander around Downtown and think 'what the hell is there to do?'   I'll come across one of these lost souls and say "no, no, no, my friend. We're doing GREAT things Downtown.  (Insert City official or Mayor name here) is doing great work. Its all coming together".   At the end of the day, patting yourself on the back, is really what's important Downtown. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 06:45:21 PM by fieldafm »

marcuscnelson

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2021, 02:14:38 AM »
The DIA told SMG to stop pursuing this option.  The excuse given was that there were IMMINENT plans to make vast improvements to the space... you know, this thing that has been talked about for 5 years now.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/projections-of-livestreamed-performances-could-come-to-downtown-jacksonville/867214644/

Between JTA claiming that autonomous vehicles are right around the corner and DIA insisting that their plans are imminently going to change everything about downtown, could our biggest problem be that every city leader simply has no sense of time? This whole game of "Oh, it's totally happening right now so we need to put everything on the back burner for it!… okay it's been four years but it's happening now, oops everything fell apart or stagnated in the process!" is just exhausting. No one seems to know or care how to just get something realistic done instead of playing Icarus.

I'd point out that there's an election in less than two years, but it seems the politicians are choosing their voters right now with redistricting.
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fieldafm

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2021, 07:08:21 AM »
Quote
could our biggest problem be that every city leader simply has no sense of time?

No, I think it clearly has to do with politics and turf wars.

CityLife

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2021, 10:19:04 AM »
That's four lost years of something happening along the riverfront Downtown.  Why? Because someone didn't want to look bad at doing their job? 

This weekend, Packers and Saints fans are coming into Jacksonville to watch a football game and will wander around Downtown and think 'what the hell is there to do?'   I'll come across one of these lost souls and say "no, no, no, my friend. We're doing GREAT things Downtown.  (Insert City official or Mayor name here) is doing great work. Its all coming together".   At the end of the day, patting yourself on the back, is really what's important Downtown.

Your story is really disappointing, but not surprising. I believe we will also be looking back and lamenting at why nothing was done to temporarily program/activate the Landing in another few years as well. The real shame is that some local leaders actually thought they would be able to pull off the redevelopment in a reasonably fast manner. Yet here we are almost 2 years since commencement of demolition began.  In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that there should have been a plan to temporarily program the space with something like The Wharf or Riverside Miami.

If DVI can host the spring concert series on site (with all of the necessary temporary stages, vendors, etc) and a skating rink can be installed this winter, I still fail to see why a temporary beer garden/event space something can't be done with the space in the interim. I know the DIA is swamped with development requests and the permanent redevelopment of the Landing. Why can't DVI step up and do something quickly? What do they even do these days?

thelakelander

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2021, 10:49:26 AM »
The skating rink is out...

Quote
Downtown Vision Inc. will not bring a pop-up ice rink to Riverfront Plaza for this year’s holiday season.

At the Downtown Investment Authority board’s July 29 meeting, DVI CEO Jake Gordon said his staff did not have enough time to plan or secure the sponsorships needed for the rink. Gordon said in June the activity would cost $750,000.

He said DVI will work to bring ice skating Downtown for the 2022 holiday season.

“I am devastated about the ice rink as well,” Gordon said.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dvi-downtown-pop-up-holiday-ice-rink-on-hold-until-2022
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thelakelander

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2021, 10:55:26 AM »
In 2018, I met with SMG (who operates facilities such as the Times Union Performing Arts Center, Ritz Theater, Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena, etc) about a proposal that was based on The Wharf in Miami and the summertime Spruce Street Harbor Park beer garden in Philadelphia.  SMG was in the midst of a one year contract extension to continue operating those COJ facilities, and were told to find ways to increase the amount of activity at those venues.  This is an opportunity to create an easy, win/win partnership.

My proposal was to open a Wharf-like installation on the very large open space in between the TUPAC and the Northbank Riverwalk.. which already has such things like electrical hookups, shade trees, etc... and would have required a small extension of premises for SMG's existing alcohol license.  There would have been a 5 year commercial lease, that would have paid rent, with a performance guarantee to have the space open in 60 days from signing the contract. There would have been a provision to cancel the lease early, if and when COJ would ever want to do physical work to the space (as there were certain known/desired work products that would have required access if those construction projects received funding).

SMG was on board. 

The DIA told SMG to stop pursuing this option.  The excuse given was that there were IMMINENT plans to make vast improvements to the space... you know, this thing that has been talked about for 5 years now.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/projections-of-livestreamed-performances-could-come-to-downtown-jacksonville/867214644/

What's really unfortunate is that I fail to see why these were not viewed as being complimentary of each other. I also fail to see how any life added downtown (no matter who is doing and generating revenue off of it) would not be beneficial to someone making a living off the task of revitalizing downtown. Anyway, at this point, neither have happened. Is there a timeline for these livestreamed performances mentioned in 2018 to begin?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 10:57:37 AM by thelakelander »
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jaxjags

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2021, 03:04:58 PM »
Quote
could our biggest problem be that every city leader simply has no sense of time?

No, I think it clearly has to do with politics and turf wars.

+1000!

marcuscnelson

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2021, 04:58:15 PM »
Quote
could our biggest problem be that every city leader simply has no sense of time?

No, I think it clearly has to do with politics and turf wars.

I mean, yeah, I was being cheeky. But yeah. As I said, City Council is choosing its own voters right now.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Bativac

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2021, 05:35:00 PM »
That's four lost years of something happening along the riverfront Downtown.  Why? Because someone didn't want to look bad at doing their job? 

This weekend, Packers and Saints fans are coming into Jacksonville to watch a football game and will wander around Downtown and think 'what the hell is there to do?'   I'll come across one of these lost souls and say "no, no, no, my friend. We're doing GREAT things Downtown.  (Insert City official or Mayor name here) is doing great work. Its all coming together".   At the end of the day, patting yourself on the back, is really what's important Downtown.

Your story is really disappointing, but not surprising. I believe we will also be looking back and lamenting at why nothing was done to temporarily program/activate the Landing in another few years as well. The real shame is that some local leaders actually thought they would be able to pull off the redevelopment in a reasonably fast manner. Yet here we are almost 2 years since commencement of demolition began.  In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that there should have been a plan to temporarily program the space with something like The Wharf or Riverside Miami.

If DVI can host the spring concert series on site (with all of the necessary temporary stages, vendors, etc) and a skating rink can be installed this winter, I still fail to see why a temporary beer garden/event space something can't be done with the space in the interim. I know the DIA is swamped with development requests and the permanent redevelopment of the Landing. Why can't DVI step up and do something quickly? What do they even do these days?

Friend of mine runs an engineering firm and met with a developer who was praising Jax (and the "potential"), specifically the Landing. My friend said "yeah, they tore that down." The developer was confused. "What's there now?" "Nothing." "....When did they tear it down?" "Year and a half ago." "..........What's going in there?" "Nothing." The developer was mystified. My friend who is from Jax but left a couple decades ago assured him it's business as usual in the River City. The developer just shook his head. Meanwhile my friend's firm is building things all over the southeast and takes on a couple new projects a week, minimum. But none in Jacksonville.

Very sad but absolutely not surprising. Business as usual in the River City.

Florida Power And Light

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Re: Short Term Solution to the Old Landing
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 10:30:59 PM »
Rouse projects throughout the US have suffered simpler demise.