Author Topic: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police  (Read 15576 times)

Chuckabear

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2021, 02:51:51 PM »
Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

It's clear you've never studied Marx. All that stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with Marx and is not found in his writings.

Most people only equate the Manifesto to Marx (written when he was 30 and is nothing more than a proletarian cheerleading essay) versus his more complete works and critiques written 20 years or more later (Das Kapital and Critique of the Gotha Program)

Adam White

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2021, 02:57:29 PM »
Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

It's clear you've never studied Marx. All that stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with Marx and is not found in his writings.

Most people only equate the Manifesto to Marx (written when he was 30 and is nothing more than a proletarian cheerleading essay) versus his more complete works and critiques written 20 years or more later (Das Kapital and Critique of the Gotha Program)

Yes. And most people who accuse things of being 'Marxist' are people who have never read Marx and just use it as a catch-all for anything they view as being 'un-American' or somehow reprehensible. And of course, there are those who equate Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc with Karl Marx.

Just because some self-described "Marxist" says something stupid doesn't make that utterance "Marxist" in the same way Jeffrey Dahmer didn't make cannibalism a defining characteristic of homosexuality.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 03:01:24 PM by Adam White »
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MusicMan

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2021, 03:02:37 PM »
The more of the article you read the more you realize how dim the leadership of the Republican party is:

"In a conversation with the Miami Herald this April, Barney Bishop, one of the top lobbyists pushing the bill in Florida's state legislature over the past year, shone a light on the justifications behind such measures — which he said were less about "intellectual diversity" and more concerned with maintaining the country's conservative Christian identity in the face of younger, more diverse generations that share a dimmer view of religious right-wing orthodoxy."

He continued: "I think the problem isn't just in higher ed. The truth of the matter is that kids are being indoctrinated from an early age," he said." 

What does he think 'conservative Christian identity' is?

And then; ""I think that those of us who have diverse thinking and look at both sides of the issue, see that the way the cards are stacked in the education system, is toward the left and toward the liberal ideology and also secularism — and those were not the values that our country was founded on. Those are the values that we need to get our country back to."

No one, anywhere, is describing this guy as a diverse thinker.  Literally every thing he says in that paragraph is wrong, based on his opinion, or nothing at all. 

The basic purpose of DeSantis regime is to intimidate Democrats and to 'own the libs.'  Doing the job of looking out for all the citizens of Florida is nowhere to be found.


Adam White

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2021, 03:20:53 PM »
I'll be honest - I think ensuring that people feel free to discuss their opinions on university campuses is a good thing. I also think no student should have to worry about being penalised by a professor for holding contrary views is a good thing. But I can't help but wonder if a lot of this is a bit of a moral panic - it's probably nowhere near as bad as advertised. It has turned into one of these big issues that the right likes to carry on about. A bogeyman of sorts.

That's not to say that there can be problems -the survey seems to indicate that there may be. But the survey also seems to deal a lot with people's impressions or feelings - it seemed more anecdotal than based on reports, etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is what is - or should be - protected speech. I am sure people have different ideas about this, but I see a difference between voicing a conservative political opinion and hate speech. And it seems (to me) that a lot of the loudest voices complaining are the people who stir up hatred against others. People like Katie Hopkins, for example.

I am not sure I agree with deplatforming or noplatforming or whatever it's called in all cases - again, I think barring people who are spreading hate is one thing, but that logic is sometimes used to bar people who hold contentious views. I mean, if you're stupid enough to want to spend money to hear Jordan "B" Peterson speak, that's on you. As gross as I think he is, I don't put him in the same league as Hopkins or David Irving or whoever.

But I don't entirely understand why people are so focused on universities. Let's pretend all the criticism is valid - why no outrage for the state of the US military? Talk about a taxpayer-funded institution that lack significant diversity of political opinion! We can't have one rule for universities and another rule for the army or even the police.
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Tacachale

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2021, 05:05:11 PM »
I've worked at UNF for 12 years and received two degrees from them. While it's certainly true that most professors are left wing, the idea that universities are leading to real or attempted indoctrination of students simply doesn't match my experience.

It's certainly true -- demonstrably, inarguably true -- that most professors are left. There have been many studies of that over the years. There's even a book length sociological work on the topic, Professors and their Politics by Solon Simmons and Neil Gross from 2014. At that time, they reported that 62% of professors self-identified as left or liberal, while only 18% said they were middle-of-the-road and 19% said they were conservative. I expect the imbalance may be even more pronounced in the age of Trump.

That said, the book's findings have hewed closely to my experience. It's just not true that many professors are trying to "indoctrinate" anyone or shut down opposing beliefs or viewpoints. And even if they were, it isn't effective: research shows that not only is it rare for students to radically change their views during college, most students actually broaden their views and become more tolerant of diverse viewpoints. A more recent study summarized by Inside Higher Ed]https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/05/research-suggests-colleges-broaden-students-political-views]Inside Higher Ed said:

Quote
The research finds that, after one year in college, many students view both liberals and conservatives more favorably than when they arrived on campus (and by about the same margins). The researchers suggest that this shows that college -- or at least the freshman year -- isn't a time when students are indoctrinated, but is actually a time when they meet people with different views and come to respect them (regardless of whether they end up changing their own views).

What's more, what professors are teaching students has less of an effect on them than interaction with other students with a variety of beliefs and backgrounds.

There are effects of the liberal bias. For instance, it tends to be self-selecting, where people who already agree politically with the professors are more likely to pursue an academic career than moderates or conservatives. There's also the issue that some beliefs with limited support or appeal in the wider world become commonplace in the academic world. And of course some small number of professors are just fools who really do want to force everyone to think like them. But they're relatively few and far between.

As a staff member, I've never seen the university try to silence anybody except due to noise complaints, disruption or direct threats of violence. We hosted a 2012 Republican debate and the protests for that. We hosted Barack Obama and the protests for him. Hell, the University of Florida allowed Richard Spencer to speak, and he's a honest to God Nazi.

All this is to say, DeSantis's law would only show something we already know (professors are mostly left) in the interest of fixing an ostensible problem (indoctrination) that simply isn't what he says it is. Unfortunately, it's a pattern with him. At this point it's hard to expect any better.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2021, 05:30:08 PM »
I was just thinking about other institutions that "indoctrinate" people:  Military, political parties, religions, parents, special interest organizations (e.g. the NRA), cults, special interest web and social media sites, certain cable channels, advertisers and marketers for businesses, foreign governments, etc. 

We live in world where everyone wants to convince us to come to their way of thinking or behavior mostly.  This makes the DeSantis "rule" a slippery slope with no end.  I would argue that even if they lean liberal, universities are less likely to "indoctrinate" someone than some of the examples cited above.  I don't see DeSantis and friends worried about those.

The way to resist indoctrination is to take in as many sources of information as possible, not to control those sources.  This responsibility ultimately falls on the individual (isn't that consistent with conservative principals?), not government or others.  With the internet today, it's especially easy to canvas the widest range of views on any given issue.  No thinking and inquisitive student today is limited to inputs only from a professor making it nearly impossible for such professor to indoctrinate a student.

DeSantis is just politically grandstanding, and dangerously so, in trying to become the thought police.  He is worried that his "thoughts" are not gaining traction with those he wishes to "indoctrinate" so he is making up "rules" to "advantage" him.  Dictators do this relatively well.  Need I say more.

BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2021, 06:15:32 PM »
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Charles Hunter

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2021, 06:43:14 PM »
Had Desantis not framed his signing of the bill with a threat to the funding of campuses where there are "hotbeds for slate ideology" - I don't think there would be so much "pearl clutching" going on.

Quote
During a press conference at a middle school in Fort Myers, the governor said campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

jaxlongtimer

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2021, 06:59:11 PM »
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)

Taking this type of survey is a total waste of time and taxpayer dollars.  It will be subject to much interpretation, trepidation in answering honestly, lack of accountability regarding the truthfulness of answers and no good outcome as a result of the surveys, regardless of what they might import to the evaluators.  And, how will they assure statistically valid responses?  Will Republicans argue that it's a "fake election" if they don't see the results they want?  Will they audit each and every "ballot"?  Demand "voter ID's"?  Refuse "mail in" surveys or use of drop boxes?  Surely, we don't want anyone "stuffing" the survey box, do we?

Overall, what is the process for anything productive being accomplished by all this silliness?  Just another example of Florida being the laughing stock of the world.

As I said once before, the biggest outcome is likely to be highly negative:  The loss of, or inability to attract, highly qualified professors at Florida state universities who refuse to subject to this "thought police" tactic as a matter of academic freedom and principles.  The best ones will have no problem finding employment elsewhere and we Floridians and our children (if they don't decide to go out of state to get a "quality" education no longer available in Florida) will be the ultimate losers.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 07:16:39 PM by jaxlongtimer »

itsfantastic1

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2021, 08:45:59 PM »

jaxoNOLE

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2021, 11:03:05 PM »
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2021, 06:17:50 AM »
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)

Taking this type of survey is a total waste of time and taxpayer dollars.  It will be subject to much interpretation, trepidation in answering honestly, lack of accountability regarding the truthfulness of answers and no good outcome as a result of the surveys, regardless of what they might import to the evaluators.  And, how will they assure statistically valid responses?  Will Republicans argue that it's a "fake election" if they don't see the results they want?  Will they audit each and every "ballot"?  Demand "voter ID's"?  Refuse "mail in" surveys or use of drop boxes?  Surely, we don't want anyone "stuffing" the survey box, do we?

Overall, what is the process for anything productive being accomplished by all this silliness?  Just another example of Florida being the laughing stock of the world.

As I said once before, the biggest outcome is likely to be highly negative:  The loss of, or inability to attract, highly qualified professors at Florida state universities who refuse to subject to this "thought police" tactic as a matter of academic freedom and principles.  The best ones will have no problem finding employment elsewhere and we Floridians and our children (if they don't decide to go out of state to get a "quality" education no longer available in Florida) will be the ultimate losers.

Complete speculation and "what if ism"...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2021, 06:22:56 AM »
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Adam White

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2021, 06:38:29 AM »
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Does that make it any better? Tu quoque.
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BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2021, 07:01:31 AM »
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Does that make it any better? Tu quoque.

No... it doesn't. It shows our leadership are monkeys...

The focus of the discussion so far has been on students being "indoctrinated "... let's look for a moment at professors being intimidated or silenced...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-are-really-really-worried-about-their-freedom/615724/
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."