Author Topic: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits  (Read 16670 times)

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« on: June 16, 2021, 02:46:13 PM »


Florida's LGBTQ history begins thousands of years before Europeans arrived. Before colonization, most Native American societies in North America had gender roles for people of a mixed or third gender – people known today as two-spirits. Among the earliest existing sources for two-spirits come from the Timucua people of North Florida, who first encountered Europeans in the 16th century.

Read more: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/florida-lgbtq-history-timucua-two-spirits
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

martt12

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 03:18:23 PM »
 Very good read! Thanks for sharing this information.

simms3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3324
  • Time has come
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2021, 09:26:21 AM »
I never understood where all of the "gender" issues became the core component of the LGBTQQIP2SAA (LGBTQ+) acronym.  I can imagine there being even more letters mere months, let alone years from now.

These "two-spirits" are still men or women (we know this SCIENTIFICALLY), but they don't take on all the stereotypical characteristics of men or women.  In fact, very few people do all the way down the line and there is of course a spectrum.  But people all fall into one of two biological and thus gender-corresponding categories, by birth: men or women.  There used to be tomboys and effeminate men.  Now I guess people just say that's a whole other gender or trans.  Not a fan of where we went with all of that.

But I of course am a big bigot for saying all of this.  I don't accept this notion of two-spirits proving any "non-binary" points, though it is still interesting to read about.  The Natives were of course very different in every way from those of us who GLADLY consider ourselves part of western civilization.  I embrace who I am, which is not an indigenous person, but a person brought up in modern western civilization and formed by Judeo-Christian values.  No shame in that for me, but doesn't mean I'm not interested in reading about other cultures.

The weird gender issues have taken over and even undermined the whole point of hetero/homosexuality.  I am not a big fan of anything even brushing up against the modern concept of "gender-fluidity".  I saw where that went in SF when I lived there and I don't think it is a better society for having all of that.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 09:46:11 AM by simms3 »
Bothering locals and trolling boards since 2005

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2021, 06:56:15 PM »
Other than studying that the Timucua (referred to as Timuquan in my earlier days) lived here when Europeans arrived, we were told not much more about their society or culture so I find that this info is out there fascinating.

Much more should be done to promote the Timucuans on a national level to elevate their familiarity with that of other tribes and Jacksonville should capitalize on same.  Maybe create a reproduction of a Timucuan village at Ft. Caroline or elsewhere with reenactments and/or multimedia presentations to share their culture and history.

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2021, 12:32:03 PM »
Other than studying that the Timucua (referred to as Timuquan in my earlier days) lived here when Europeans arrived, we were told not much more about their society or culture so I find that this info is out there fascinating.

Much more should be done to promote the Timucuans on a national level to elevate their familiarity with that of other tribes and Jacksonville should capitalize on same.  Maybe create a reproduction of a Timucuan village at Ft. Caroline or elsewhere with reenactments and/or multimedia presentations to share their culture and history.

Love this idea! I've always thought a good place would be on Fort George Island, where the town of Alicamani and later the Spanish Mission San Juan del Puerto was located. Then it would be near Kingsley Plantation and the Ribault Club. Plenty of space there too.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2021, 04:24:08 PM »
I never understood where all of the "gender" issues became the core component of the LGBTQQIP2SAA (LGBTQ+) acronym.  I can imagine there being even more letters mere months, let alone years from now.

These "two-spirits" are still men or women (we know this SCIENTIFICALLY), but they don't take on all the stereotypical characteristics of men or women.  In fact, very few people do all the way down the line and there is of course a spectrum.  But people all fall into one of two biological and thus gender-corresponding categories, by birth: men or women.  There used to be tomboys and effeminate men.  Now I guess people just say that's a whole other gender or trans.  Not a fan of where we went with all of that.

But I of course am a big bigot for saying all of this.  I don't accept this notion of two-spirits proving any "non-binary" points, though it is still interesting to read about.  The Natives were of course very different in every way from those of us who GLADLY consider ourselves part of western civilization.  I embrace who I am, which is not an indigenous person, but a person brought up in modern western civilization and formed by Judeo-Christian values.  No shame in that for me, but doesn't mean I'm not interested in reading about other cultures.

The weird gender issues have taken over and even undermined the whole point of hetero/homosexuality.  I am not a big fan of anything even brushing up against the modern concept of "gender-fluidity".  I saw where that went in SF when I lived there and I don't think it is a better society for having all of that.

I initially typed up something far harsher, but as you said you're interested in it, I figured I'd reach out and try to explain some of what the article is talking about. As the article mentions, modern medicine distinguishes between biological sex and gender. Biological sex means physical anatomy. There things are more black and white: there are people with male anatomy, people with female anatomy, and a much smaller number of people with intersex anatomy. Gender is more mutable. Gender roles are socially constructed. We know this instinctively because gender roles are somewhat different in literally every single society. They also vary over time and from person to person even within the same society.

For most people, their gender matches their biological sex. This is what the term cis or cisgender refers to. But for some people, it doesn't. There have always been folks who just don't fit in the rigid categories despite their anatomy. Throughout history there are examples of people with male anatomy living as women and vice versa. And there have always been some societies, including the Timucua and probably all other Native American peoples at the time, who recognize a category for third or mixed gender people.

None of this is new. It's just more visible now, and folks are trying to find identities they feel fit them, and put names to what they're experiencing. And one doesn't have to understand everything to be respectful and decent. For me, I just reckon that folks know their own bodies and spirits a lot better than I do.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

simms3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3324
  • Time has come
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 10:44:40 AM »
That's fine that you are going along with all of these "modern" notions, just don't expect everyone else to.  If you want to be called "they" and you are a single person, you won't get me to go along with that.  You are not a "they" and I will not break the English language just for you, no matter how woke Merriam's and Webster's get and accommodate this BS into their dictionaries (usually language and definition changes happen organically with time and particular use cases, not forced by societal movements that are arguably mob-rule level changes).

If you want to consider yourself "non-binary" because you are somehow so much more special than all of the "regular" men and women out there, fine, you can hold yourself in that regard, but there are plenty of us who will look at you and consider you either a man or a woman.  If you want to "confuse" us and be as "gender-queer" as possible so that we actually have a hard time telling what you are, that's your prerogative, but there are those of us who will consider you just plain weird.

On to the indians - it's sort of like the peyote and what they are and aren't allowed to do relative to the rest of us.  I consider myself super lucky to have been raised in the greatest country on earth, despite all of its sins of the past.  This country was created under Judeo-Christian foundation and western science is THE science that has discovered nearly all of what we know today.  The natives were not advanced at all when we came here.  They may have a two-spirit concept, but it is simply not even conducive to what we know in the west about biological sex and nature. 

Besides, our culture was already accommodating to expressing a variety of gender norms.  There are more effeminate men, both straight and gay, and there are more manly women, both straight and gay.  Remember the term "tomboy"?  As adults we don't assign rules to the extent we are claiming we do.  You are free to be you and express that, but you are still a man or a woman.  To even adopt otherwise is literally to adopt notions from indigenous peoples who are not from "western civilization".

And since when did the whole gender thing take over the gay community?  Homosexuality is contingent on a binary gender construct.  Same with heterosexuality.  Now they are making sexuality out to be a choice, all because of this gender fluidity thing and trying to be accommodating to all of the new stuff going on.  I'm not for it at all.
Bothering locals and trolling boards since 2005

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »
That's fine that you are going along with all of these "modern" notions, just don't expect everyone else to.  If you want to be called "they" and you are a single person, you won't get me to go along with that.  You are not a "they" and I will not break the English language just for you, no matter how woke Merriam's and Webster's get and accommodate this BS into their dictionaries (usually language and definition changes happen organically with time and particular use cases, not forced by societal movements that are arguably mob-rule level changes).

If you want to consider yourself "non-binary" because you are somehow so much more special than all of the "regular" men and women out there, fine, you can hold yourself in that regard, but there are plenty of us who will look at you and consider you either a man or a woman.  If you want to "confuse" us and be as "gender-queer" as possible so that we actually have a hard time telling what you are, that's your prerogative, but there are those of us who will consider you just plain weird.

On to the indians - it's sort of like the peyote and what they are and aren't allowed to do relative to the rest of us.  I consider myself super lucky to have been raised in the greatest country on earth, despite all of its sins of the past.  This country was created under Judeo-Christian foundation and western science is THE science that has discovered nearly all of what we know today.  The natives were not advanced at all when we came here.  They may have a two-spirit concept, but it is simply not even conducive to what we know in the west about biological sex and nature. 

Besides, our culture was already accommodating to expressing a variety of gender norms.  There are more effeminate men, both straight and gay, and there are more manly women, both straight and gay.  Remember the term "tomboy"?  As adults we don't assign rules to the extent we are claiming we do.  You are free to be you and express that, but you are still a man or a woman.  To even adopt otherwise is literally to adopt notions from indigenous peoples who are not from "western civilization".

And since when did the whole gender thing take over the gay community?  Homosexuality is contingent on a binary gender construct.  Same with heterosexuality.  Now they are making sexuality out to be a choice, all because of this gender fluidity thing and trying to be accommodating to all of the new stuff going on.  I'm not for it at all.

Well, I tried. One thing I'll add: the continuing accommodation of "new stuff" is the reason most Americans now accept gay peoples' rights. It was literally just 10 years ago -- seriously, 2011 -- when polls showed more than 50% of the country accepted same-sex marriage for the first time. You have benefited from Americans' tendency to become more accepting over time, as most of us here have.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

simms3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3324
  • Time has come
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 07:04:42 AM »
Oh rest assured I think we've been too accepting of a lot of things now.

From a friend's Facebook:



From the news:
Transgender motorcross athlete wants to win medal and burn American flag on podium
https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-athlete-chelsea-wolfe-says-goal-burn-us-flag-olympic-podium-1602711?amp=1

And just in case you didn't see the Juneteenth revelers twerking on the ambulance that showed up for a Juneteenth shooting in Oakland:
https://youtu.be/eH9QS0pK428

And if you don't think the twerking is relevant, rest assured most of the major LGBT street events (and even the Hard French parties at El Rio) I attended in the Bay Area ended up having that kind of energy and lots of twerking.

So we have devolved to this as a society and as a country, so no I don't think at this point we've "benefited" from accepting whatever the mob throws at us.

And I don't see many gays taking marriage as seriously as they should.  The gay community has very much embraced open relationships and polyamory, so why did they need "marriage" then?  I say this as a gay man.  I find very few things from the gay "community" these days that I support.  Certainly NOT this gender confusion mess we are in.
Bothering locals and trolling boards since 2005

bl8jaxnative

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 08:57:24 AM »
For me, I just reckon that folks know their own bodies and spirits a lot better than I do.

Let's apply that principle to another domain, like, let's say severe depression + suicide.   Maybe not quite what we're looking for?

Adam White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3710
    • Facebook
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 11:41:56 AM »
So, for those keeping score...

Things Simms doesn't like*:

1) trans people
2) Black youth
3) scooters
4) Black youth on scooters
5) Indians
6) the English language when he doesn't agree with how it evolves.

Things Simms does like*:

1) the USA (I assume that is what country he was referring to as "the greatest country on earth")
2) mentioning San Francisco
3) expensive haircuts.

*Apologies if I missed a few things.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 11:47:38 AM by Adam White »
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 01:54:55 PM »
Oh rest assured I think we've been too accepting of a lot of things now.

From a friend's Facebook:



From the news:
Transgender motorcross athlete wants to win medal and burn American flag on podium
https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-athlete-chelsea-wolfe-says-goal-burn-us-flag-olympic-podium-1602711?amp=1

And just in case you didn't see the Juneteenth revelers twerking on the ambulance that showed up for a Juneteenth shooting in Oakland:
https://youtu.be/eH9QS0pK428

And if you don't think the twerking is relevant, rest assured most of the major LGBT street events (and even the Hard French parties at El Rio) I attended in the Bay Area ended up having that kind of energy and lots of twerking.

So we have devolved to this as a society and as a country, so no I don't think at this point we've "benefited" from accepting whatever the mob throws at us.

And I don't see many gays taking marriage as seriously as they should.  The gay community has very much embraced open relationships and polyamory, so why did they need "marriage" then?  I say this as a gay man.  I find very few things from the gay "community" these days that I support.  Certainly NOT this gender confusion mess we are in.

Jesus Christ dude.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8024
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 02:17:20 PM »
So, for those keeping score...

Things Simms doesn't like*:

1) trans people
2) Black youth
3) scooters
4) Black youth on scooters
5) Indians
6) the English language when he doesn't agree with how it evolves.

Things Simms does like*:

1) the USA (I assume that is what country he was referring to as "the greatest country on earth")
2) mentioning San Francisco
3) expensive haircuts.

*Apologies if I missed a few things.

Bahaha
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13888
  • The average person thinks he isnt
    • London Bridge Pub
Re: Florida LGBTQ history: Timucua two-spirits
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 04:20:34 PM »
Oh rest assured I think we've been too accepting of a lot of things now.

From a friend's Facebook:



From the news:
Transgender motorcross athlete wants to win medal and burn American flag on podium
https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-athlete-chelsea-wolfe-says-goal-burn-us-flag-olympic-podium-1602711?amp=1

And just in case you didn't see the Juneteenth revelers twerking on the ambulance that showed up for a Juneteenth shooting in Oakland:
https://youtu.be/eH9QS0pK428

And if you don't think the twerking is relevant, rest assured most of the major LGBT street events (and even the Hard French parties at El Rio) I attended in the Bay Area ended up having that kind of energy and lots of twerking.

So we have devolved to this as a society and as a country, so no I don't think at this point we've "benefited" from accepting whatever the mob throws at us.

And I don't see many gays taking marriage as seriously as they should.  The gay community has very much embraced open relationships and polyamory, so why did they need "marriage" then?  I say this as a gay man.  I find very few things from the gay "community" these days that I support.  Certainly NOT this gender confusion mess we are in.

Jesus Christ dude.

ROFL… Simms… you can’t even think those things much less utter or post them. Lol
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."