Author Topic: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings  (Read 18424 times)

jaxoNOLE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2021, 08:59:31 AM »
And now this:

Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel

The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.

...

If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/

WarDamJagFan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2021, 09:17:14 AM »
And now this:

Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel

The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.

...

If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/

Quite hilarious given that "according to people familiar with the matter" (pulling my inner MSM lingo), the reason Curry bought out Sleiman to turn the Landing into a wasteland was to do a potential landswap for the original Shipyards development with Khan.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32653
    • Modern Cities
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2021, 12:10:46 PM »
The perils of not or refusing to work with what you already have. This redevelopment thing becomes a lot easier, less time consuming and much more affordable when looking at the entire downtown area holistically, understanding what we can and can't do with certain spaces and then coordinating adaptive reuse and infill projects within those parameters and guidelines. These are certain elements of a master planning process that the CRA plan largely lacked.

Imagine moving forward with a project like this without having to beg another agency for a land swap or repaying $21 million to renege on a deal? How far could that $21 million stretch into actually paying for the improvement of a space like the Landing site, JWJ Park, Metropolitan Park, streetscaping, improved lighting, etc.? How much time and money are we wasting and throwing away on trying to force things in and on to sites where we made deals to do the opposite under previous administrations? When we talk about streamlining government, this is one area where it can easily be done with planning properly and sticking to those plans long term.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 12:16:04 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2021, 12:38:33 PM »
^ Here we go again.  How long have the Mayor, DIA and Khan known about the terms of this agreement and not put it in front of the public eye?  If they were not aware before now, it's just another example of their collective incompetence in doing proper due diligence.

Depending on the answer, they look either disingenuous or foolish.  Not good optics either way.

We also need to recognize that if we "swap" shipyard land for the Kids Kampus, that we are effectively giving Khan at least another $21 million in public value over the initial total of about $153.5 million ($93.5 million in various incentives and $60 million for the City's half of the practice facilities).

Nate Monroe also notes that valuable storm water credits and getting hung with the existing Daily's practice field are among the add-ons not accounted for yet.

Check out these excerpts (emphasis added) of Monroe's recap:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/06/04/jaguars-shad-khan-finds-new-allies-downtown-development-nate-monroe/7529123002/
Quote
....Khan is asking taxpayers to contribute about $93.5 million in various incentives to help build the five-star hotel (Khan hopes, but does appear to have guaranteed, it will be a Four Seasons), a 6-story office building, and a revamped marina, according to a term sheet Khan's business team provided to the Downtown Investment Authority. The $93.5 million includes environmental remediation, infrastructure costs and about $4.5 million of public land.

The bulk of the taxpayer contribution will take the form of a $44 million property-tax rebate and a $28 million completion grant, which are both incentives paid out on the back end of construction.

The city will directly contribute to the construction costs for the marina, but Khan appears to be the financier of the hotel and office construction. That is a major change and an important one particularly on the office building, since the Jaguars themselves plan to use two of the six floors.

Asked about what level of commitment the Four Seasons has made — the brand Khan and Lamping associate with the project — Khan gave a bit of a winding non-answer, and the term sheet his development team submitted only commits them to a five-star hotel of unspecified branding.

Khan will also commit to a $4 million, 20-year agreement to maintain what remains on 14 acres of Metropolitan Park.

The Jaguars also want the city to split the cost of a new practice facility, with the city and Jaguars each contributing $60 million. The facility is the brainchild of head coach Urban Meyer, but it's also, for Khan, a way of acknowledging another complaint about Lot J: It did nothing to address elephant in the room — the aging stadium and the long-term lease extension attached to a rebuild or renovation of it. For the city, securing a lease extension is the real end game.

Khan and Lamping have framed the practice facility as the first step in the direction of ultimately renovating TIAA Bank Field, but they haven't suggested any extension is directly tied to the city's contribution to the facility.

There are still some outstanding questions the team will need to address, and a few less-flattering points worth considering even as this more reasonable plan is likely to sail through the City Council:

- For now, the much-touted Four Seasons brand appears to be speculative, even if Khan is confident he can eventually bring one here. It's possible the city will be asked to commit to incentivizing this project without possessing any binding agreement committing the Four Seasons to Jacksonville.

Khan didn't give a firm answer when asked directly by a Times-Union reporter what commitment he had secured, and the term sheet his business team put together notably commits his development team only to building a "five-star hotel," without specifying a brand.

Jacksonville would be a novel market for a Four Seasons, widely recognized to be one of the highest-end hotels in the world. Downtown Jacksonville is less developed and possesses far less concentrated wealth than a typical place the Four Seasons would consider. And unlike the smaller cities that do house a Four Seasons, Jacksonville is not a tourism destination or a resort town. Khan acknowledged Thursday the return for such a hotel would likely be minimal.

- The Jaguars have repeatedly insisted their plans don't infringe upon Metropolitan Park, but that depends on reinterpreting what the park includes, particularly the site of the former Kids Kampus. City documents have previously described the park being as large as 23 acres, or 24.7 acres, and today 18 acres. The Jaguars, however, are focused on preserving only 14 acres that are protected by an agreement with the National Park Service. Perhaps that's fine, and perhaps it's not, but it's disingenuous to flatly declare the plan doesn't eat away at space previously understood to be part of Metropolitan Park, or to imply, as Lamping did Thursday, people who believe that are mistaken.

- A report commissioned by Khan's development team concluded late last year Metropolitan Park and the entire area are incredibly vulnerable to sea-level rise and storm surge, and that much of the existing protection in the area, like bulkheads, have exceeded their useful life. The report recommended any development include "state-of-the-art" drainage systems and consider elevations several feet above where they are today.

But the term sheet Khan's team submitted asks the city to help him use an administrative loophole — so-called "storm water credits" — to be in compliance with local law. That needs to be explained further, as do any plans the Jaguars might have to bolster flood protection at the site. Any taxpayer investment in the area should be protected by more than a paperwork box-checking exercise, just as Khan's own report recommended.

There is also monetary value to storm water credits — possibly significant value depending on the level of cover required — should the city provide Khan with them. But the potential value of that city-provided incentive was not included in the return-on-investment calculation the Jaguars completed for the city.

- The construction of the practice facility would render the flex field useless to the Jaguars, even though it was built just a few years ago as part of a $90 million series of upgrades for which the city contributed half. The team is prepared to cede that facility back to the city, which on its face might look to be a good thing. But the city already has tremendous trouble programming the parks and facilities it possesses now (see: Metropolitan Park). The flex field, which is attached to the amphitheater, is at risk of becoming a white elephant — a building in need of constant upkeep but without much practical use — if the city doesn't carefully plan and fund a way to keep that brand-new building relevant....

jaxjags

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2021, 02:02:00 PM »
And now this:

Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel

The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.

...

If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/

Quite hilarious given that "according to people familiar with the matter" (pulling my inner MSM lingo), the reason Curry bought out Sleiman to turn the Landing into a wasteland was to do a potential landswap for the original Shipyards development with Khan.

Depends on why the ban on development exist. If it is to be sure the marina remains accessible to the general pubic that appears to be the case. I believe they called this a public marina and it will have a dock building open to both local and transit boaters. Also appears to have a road down to dock area. Not sure, but let's see how this plays out.

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (HOT DAMMIT!) YES...SUPER TALLS!!!
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCY
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2021, 05:55:29 PM »
And now this:

Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel

The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.

...

If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/
There's gotta be a way around this; Shad needs to figure this thing out; and yesterday!
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal/ or, access my Social Service national/world wide page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: http://www.freshstartsocialagency.com; thank you!!!

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2021, 12:14:17 AM »
I imagine Ron DeSantis' DEP is likely to be more amenable than the National Park Service, but I suppose we'll see. Kinda embarrassing that they wouldn't get clarification on this kind of thing before doing all the rendering and making the flashy presentation.

Unless, this is like what happened with the NPS and they already have an answer…
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2021, 05:55:16 PM »
Couple of notes on this:

1) In addition to the $200k the Jags have commit to Met Park, a 2% fee will be assessed to all hotel stays at Four Seasons (which won’t be cheap), with that fund going into a joint COJ/Jags account for upkeep and programming at Met Park, the marina, and the adjacent Riverwalk. The Jags will oversee all upkeep.

2) The Jags want Met Park to become a destination for large music festivals.

3) The development is shaped to work around environmental obstacles, and resiliency measures should double as remediation solved. Iguana thinks actual remediation necessary will be minimal.

4) Agreement is structured so that the Jags will need to move relatively quickly on Phase 2 (Baptist Center and residential) if they want to develop it after the hotel is complete.

5) Jags will partner with the city on programming the Flex Field.

More I learn about this deal, the more I like it.

Jags start first of their ~15 Town Halls tonight. Looks like Lamping may be personally hosting many of them. Good for him.

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (HOT DAMMIT!) YES...SUPER TALLS!!!
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCY
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2021, 08:06:33 PM »
Couple of notes on this:

1) In addition to the $200k the Jags have commit to Met Park, a 2% fee will be assessed to all hotel stays at Four Seasons (which won’t be cheap), with that fund going into a joint COJ/Jags account for upkeep and programming at Met Park, the marina, and the adjacent Riverwalk. The Jags will oversee all upkeep.

2) The Jags want Met Park to become a destination for large music festivals.

3) The development is shaped to work around environmental obstacles, and resiliency measures should double as remediation solved. Iguana thinks actual remediation necessary will be minimal.

4) Agreement is structured so that the Jags will need to move relatively quickly on Phase 2 (Baptist Center and residential) if they want to develop it after the hotel is complete.

5) Jags will partner with the city on programming the Flex Field.

More I learn about this deal, the more I like it.

Jags start first of their ~15 Town Halls tonight. Looks like Lamping may be personally hosting many of them. Good for him.
So far I like what I am hearing and seeing as well. Hope it works out for all concerned, especially the citizens of Jacksonville.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal/ or, access my Social Service national/world wide page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: http://www.freshstartsocialagency.com; thank you!!!

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2021, 12:34:54 AM »


Based on conversations the DIA is having with the state, it feels like plans are starting to take shape with the Shipyards.

Looking at the map above, the Maxwell House Lot and Hogans West parcels (basically the Westernmost ~10 acres of the Shipyards) will be almost exclusively park space, if the state approves a land swap with the old Kids Campus space. Little, if any, private development on these parcels.

MOSH will take up four acres on the Eastern portion of the Shipyards (Lot X/Hogans East).

Jags Phase 2 (Baptist ortho center + residential) will be between MOSH and the Five Star hotel & office.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32653
    • Modern Cities
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2021, 06:08:13 AM »
Hmm, any discussion about reconnecting the Eastside with the riverfront that was stolen from it? At a minimum, I'd hope these plans would allow for public access along A. Philip Randolph, extending straight down to the riverfront as opposed to being blocked off by a museum or parking lot.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2021, 03:51:16 PM »
Development agreement approved by DIA subcommittee today.

Goes before the full DIA for approval right after the July 4th holiday.

Should sail through.

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2021, 04:25:34 PM »
P.S. DIA has been talking about Catherine Street as a landing spot for the fire museum.

Apparently they've selected a location on Bay Street, near Catherine, instead.

Sounds like it might be on the Western Shipyards side.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 04:37:52 PM by Ken_FSU »

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32653
    • Modern Cities
Re: 1st DownTown Jacksonville Renderings
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2021, 05:01:21 PM »
Here's a conceptual plan from the duPont effort:





"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali