Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....

[CityLife]

The conspiracy theorist in me says that the only logical reason that the JTA would cancel the low-cost, no-frills expansion of the existing Skyway into Brooklyn was because they were afraid it would make the current Skyway more successful.

That and they ran out of money due to the hemorrhaging taxpayer money reallocation scheme, better known as the U2C.

That driverless van with driver pilot program in Brooklyn lasted all of what, two weeks?

Speaking of the Brooklyn pilot program, does anyone know how the FSCJ autonomous shuttle is going? JTA rolled it out last spring to great fanfare and chest pounding, but there doesn't seem to be a word about it online.

[thelakelander]

^If it were bustling with people waiting to be moved across a parking lot slower than they can walk, it would have been plastered all over the press. Silence lets you know that the average person could care less.

[Lunican]

I would order off the shelf transit vehicles used all over the world and retrofit the Skyway track for it. How does inventing a new form of transit make sense? Why not teleportation while we're at it?

The Stadler TINA tram for example:


https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/08/stadler-to-supply-56-tina-trams-to-halle-in-germany.html

[Charles Hunter]

A bit of humor ... there aren't any roundabouts on the U2C route, are there?
https://futurism.com/the-byte/video-waymo-stuck-roundabout

[jaxlongtimer]

Emily Turner from Action News was on First Coast Connect on Tuesday discussing the futility of the U2C/Skyway project following her excellent expose on JTA's shortfalls.  A nice sequel to her earlier reporting and covers many of the points being made on the Jaxson.  It is the second story of the day, about 20 minutes in after the interview with John Peyton:

Then, after years of planning an overhaul to the Skyway, city transportation officials are just now spending almost $7 million on a feasibility study. We’ll discuss why the project’s future is still uncertain, with the investigative reporter who’s been covering JTA’s Ultimate Urban Circulator for months.

Guest:

Emily Turner, anchor and investigative reporter at Action News Jax.

https://news.wjct.org/show/first-coast-connect/2024-12-16/on-tuesdays-show-former-mayor-john-peyton

P.S. It was funny hearing John Peyton promote the importance of Downtown while Gate continues to promote its own urban sprawl developments.  The closest thing I know of that Gate has Downtown is the River Club and a gas station in Brooklyn  .

[Jrz Jax]

I attended Donna Deegan's budget town hall last night, but I quickly sized up the fact that the Beaches audience (generally) wasn't too enthusiastic to discuss anything on the other side of the ditch. But maybe I will go to another meeting to throw some questions out.

I'm a recent transplant, and I see so much untapped potential in the Skyway. (Okay, I see it a lot of untapped potential in many areas, some of which is now being realized, but I'm going to stay close to the topic.) The track-to-nowhere drumbeat is loud, but I think there's a case to be made for expansion. At the Hogan Street bend, it seems there is extra space for a planned branch line. It seems like a no brainer to go down Hogan, stop at Riverfront Plaza, come back to Fords on Bay, Orlek/future convention center, shipyards, relocated MOSH, and the stadium. Naturally, a Riverside connection to 5 Points as well. Ideally, the southbank line terminates in the San Marco downtown, which isn't impossible but that might be a tough sell. I think I'm pretty much preaching to the choir, but that connects all these major foot-traffic areas (including a block from .the Pearl Square initiative) very efficiently, and helps keep businesses in business.

Yes, there are some bottlenecks. There needs to be an upgrade to the rail and the rolling stock. Fine, put it up for an RFP for an upgrade with a 40-year life span and place it side-by-side. Compromise: a scaled-down scope of U2C could remain (grade-level only), and let it expand with the technology, and not get out ahead of it.

The issue is that in any business, innovators have to have the wherewithal to fail. But if U2C fails as proposed, it's a double loss because it takes the Skyway with it.

Longwinded preamble to this: With regards to the gas tax, it that U2C slush fund transferrable to the Skyway? I mean, I suppose it's possible with an ordinance, but as it stands right now, is there that flexibility? Could there be a scaled-down U2C and an upgraded/expanded Skyway? I know the mayor is really high on what Nat Ford supplies, but at what point does this officially get labeled as the boondoggle it is?

[jaxlongtimer]

Jrz Jax, welcome to Jacksonville and the Jaxson.

Much of what you touch on has been discussed, pro and con, and in-between, in dozens of forum threads on this site going back some 20 years.  There is much history and side issues to the Skyway and U2C that make any recommendations for expansion, abandonment, or other alternatives not black and white issues.  So, suggest, if interested, you might want to read some of these extensive threads to save time.

The U2C is meant, in large part, to replace the current Skyway equipment (no longer made or supported) so it is inextricably linked.  The Skyway, in the eyes of many, is an unmitigated failure for many reasons and its expansion is likely not politically or economically, for many, feasible.  The U2C is projected by many here to be a repeat of the Skyway failure on steroids.  Some do believe that there are other forms of transit that could run on the Skyway track that may change its course, literally and figuratively, while others think that it should be abandoned, repurposed a la the NYC Highline or demolished.

Your observation about the Beaches audience is mostly spot on.  I just met with a resident in Ponte Vedra today and he made it clear that he comes into town as little as possible and loves living in the Beaches bubble.  Having lived here about 10 years, he knew almost nothing about the City outside of the Beaches.  As you noted, this is a common experience, even more so today, than ever, as the Beaches has come into its own as a primary, not vacation, residency.

With a consolidated City government, City Hall has to please from the Beaches to the rural west side and everything in-between and it isn't easy getting everyone on the same page as a result.

[Jrz Jax]

Many thanks for the welcome. We are 3½ years here and not regretting the decision. This board and The Jaxson have been amazing for me to quick study on everything. I've lurked here for about the last 2 years and now had the courage to jump in to the discussion.

And I realize a lot of what I said has been hashed out many times in different forms over the years. I guess the takeaway in all that I wrote was not only therapeutic to get it off my chest, but also affirmation that even newcomers see these issues. I've seen serviceable legacy transportation be tantalized with an upgrade, only to see it yanked away with just awesome renderings to show for it. A rail project from my stomping grounds that was promised -- I say, promised -- since 1984 is actually moving forward and cleared a significant hurdle to completion last month. I see many similarities in the Terminal project, and it would be so frustrating to live that all over again.

I mentioned 5 Points. I've heard about it, didn't really know where it was until recently. I did drive through there after we first moved here, but didn't realize it at the time. Personally, I don't think I'm inclined to drive there. But if I'm downtown, somehow it's closer if I can jump on the Skyway. I think a lot of the inbound demographic targeted for these downtown developments is going to expect some fixed transportation to get them around, then buses and rideshares. Not sure where autonomous shuttles fit in the hierarchy.

It has been a bit disorienting to me that the Skyway stopped in San Marco, but it was far away from the town center. And I was proud to have planned out that for New Year's Eve we could park on the Southbank and take the Skyway across the bridge ... until I was told the Skyway was shut down for the holiday, and it was back in the car to get to the other side.

And someone smarter than me is going to have to explain why nearly every bus route has the same origin point.

Anyway, thanks to the Jaxson, I've seen where you have been and how far you have come. It wasn't quite a dart throw at a map that got us here, but close. I hope you don't mind that my old neighbors and I have found this hidden secret.

Oh, and I say "y'all" now.

[Charles Hunter]

Short answer on "wny nearly every bus route has the same origin point." The system is designed as a 'hub and spoke' with the main hub downtown. Now, the hub is at the JTA's LaVilla Skyway Station, until a few years ago, the hub was at the Rosa Parks Skyway Station. The concept being the buses would bring people in from the suburbs, and the Skyway would distribute them through downtown.

There are some routes that do not come downtown, operating out of one (or more) of regional hubs. One I am somewhat familiar with is at the [derelict] Regency Mall parking lot. At least one route based there does not go downtown, running primarily along University Boulevard to the Lakewood area.

Two reasons the Skyway does not got to Town Center*. First, the technology is not designed for long-haul routes, but for short shuttle operations - like within downtown, or within airports (see Tampa). Second, when the Skyway was initiated in the 1970s, the Town Center area was cow pastures and pine tree farms. Also, the federal demonstration project that funded it was for "Downtown People Movers."

* "Town Center" assuming you meant the massive development along Butler Boulevard between Southside Blvd. and I-295; on re-reading, I see you could also be referring to Downtown. In that case, the original plan for the Skyway was for potential extensions to San Marco Square, Five Points, the Stadium, and the 8th Street hospital complex.

[fieldafm]

Short answer on "wny nearly every bus route has the same origin point." The system is designed as a 'hub and spoke' with the main hub downtown. Now, the hub is at the JTA's LaVilla Skyway Station, until a few years ago, the hub was at the Rosa Parks Skyway Station. The concept being the buses would bring people in from the suburbs, and the Skyway would distribute them through downtown.

There are some routes that do not come downtown, operating out of one (or more) of regional hubs. One I am somewhat familiar with is at the [derelict] Regency Mall parking lot. At least one route based there does not go downtown, running primarily along University Boulevard to the Lakewood area.

Two reasons the Skyway does not got to Town Center*. First, the technology is not designed for long-haul routes, but for short shuttle operations - like within downtown, or within airports (see Tampa). Second, when the Skyway was initiated in the 1970s, the Town Center area was cow pastures and pine tree farms. Also, the federal demonstration project that funded it was for "Downtown People Movers."

* "Town Center" assuming you meant the massive development along Butler Boulevard between Southside Blvd. and I-295; on re-reading, I see you could also be referring to Downtown. In that case, the original plan for the Skyway was for potential extensions to San Marco Square, Five Points, the Stadium, and the 8th Street hospital complex.

@Jrz Jax
The original Skyway system plans and how they evolved can be found here: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-oct-downtown-frankenstein-the-skyway-screwing-up-the-idea-of-mass-transit

[Jrz Jax]

Appreciate the responses. I did do some research before, but I appreciate the deep link back to 2006. Fascinating.

I get the mixed opinion on the viability of the Skyway. I just wonder if the gas tax that is funding the U2C has the flexibility to the Skyway or other mode of transportation or a slimmed-down, ground-level U2C.

And, I should remember the generic names abound. I did mean lower-case "town center" and not Town Center. Riverfront/Riverside/Riverplace, The District, Central Station, and where's the university on University Blvd ........................ oh, there it is. A lot to get used to.

Maybe I'll get the courage to say something at the budget meeting tonight.

[Charles Hunter]

Appreciate the responses. I did do some research before, but I appreciate the deep link back to 2006. Fascinating.

I get the mixed opinion on the viability of the Skyway. I just wonder if the gas tax that is funding the U2C has the flexibility to the Skyway or other mode of transportation or a slimmed-down, ground-level U2C.

I think it would take action by City Council to divert sales tax funds from the U2C to the legacy Skyway, or any other, transportation project.

And, I should remember the generic names abound. I did mean lower-case "town center" and not Town Center. Riverfront/Riverside/Riverplace, The District, Central Station, and where's the university on University Blvd ........................ oh, there it is. A lot to get used to.

Maybe I'll get the courage to say something at the budget meeting tonight.

At the northern end of University Boulevard (which is State Road 109), in the Arlington area sits Jacksonville University. As I recall, the "University" name in Lakewood (near San Jose Boulevard) went with several streets bearing names of universities. Again, if my memory serves, it was the last segment to be named "University" of what once had 3 separate names.  Pretty sure this board had a thread on the names of University Boulevard, but I can't find it.

[jaxlongtimer]

Part of University Blvd. was called Love Grove Road.  A Wikipedia article on the road doesn't list any other earlier names:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_109

I found this quote below on a history blog that has other names:

University Blvd back then was known as Chaseville Rd north of Beach Rd (Atlantic Blvd), Love Grove Rd between Atlantic Blvd and Beach Blvd. and Longwood Rd south of Beach Blvd.

Read more: https://www.city-data.com/forum/jacksonville/148758-gone-but-not-forgotten-jacksonville-58.html

[fsu813]

Progress update on autonomous vehicles from the world's leader:

https://youtu.be/7W-VneUv8Gk

It'll be fine.

[jaxlongtimer]

Good ol' unreliable.  Not a Maytag  .

JTA said the Skyway will be closed for maintenance from Feb. 24 through March 7.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2025/02/24/skyway-closed-for-maintenance-through-early-march-jta-says/