Author Topic: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?  (Read 3786 times)

itsfantastic1

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2021, 01:14:09 PM »
An analogy would be arresting everyone at a sporting event and charging them with felonies because a few fans got in a fight in the stands. Crimes such as property damage, assult and theft already exist. Regardless of protest or not, it's still a crime to do everything this bill "hopes to protect against."

This law is clearly designed to stifle people's ability to peaceably assemble for fear they'll be lumped in with the actions of others. It's also ironic to see small government conservatives throwing their support behind this law, which gives the government broader power to stifle whole groups of people based on the actions of the few. But as long as it's "hurting the right people", they'll cheer on because "it could never happen to them..."
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 02:53:17 PM by itsfantastic1 »

Tacachale

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2021, 02:36:55 PM »
I don’t know about the rest of Florida but Jacksonville only had one riot out of dozens of protests. It was after the first one, and it hasn’t happened at any protest since. The law isn’t based on anything that happened around here.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2021, 03:21:49 PM »
An analogy would be arresting everyone at a sporting event and charging them with felonies because a few fans got in a fight in the stands. Crimes such as property damage, assult and theft already exist. Regardless of protest or not, it's still a crime to do everything this bill "hopes to protect against."

This law is clearly designed to stifle people's ability to peaceably assemble for fear they'll be lumped in with the actions of others. It's also ironic to see small government conservatives throwing their support behind this law, which gives the government broader power to stifle whole groups of people based on the actions of the few. But as long as it's "hurting the right people", they'll cheer on because "it could never happen to them..."

Pretty sure we just saw a right wing riot in DC a short time ago...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

vicupstate

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2021, 03:28:07 PM »
An analogy would be arresting everyone at a sporting event and charging them with felonies because a few fans got in a fight in the stands. Crimes such as property damage, assult and theft already exist. Regardless of protest or not, it's still a crime to do everything this bill "hopes to protect against."

This law is clearly designed to stifle people's ability to peaceably assemble for fear they'll be lumped in with the actions of others. It's also ironic to see small government conservatives throwing their support behind this law, which gives the government broader power to stifle whole groups of people based on the actions of the few. But as long as it's "hurting the right people", they'll cheer on because "it could never happen to them..."

Pretty sure we just saw a right wing riot in DC a short time ago...

Technically, it was an attempted insurrection.
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2021, 03:29:57 PM »
I don’t know about the rest of Florida but Jacksonville only had one riot out of dozens of protests. It was after the first one, and it hasn’t happened at any protest since. The law isn’t based on anything that happened around here.

Do we need to wait for a Minneapolis, Portland, or DC happen here?  Reasonable limits to constitutional rights are pretty common... with some people wanting drastic limits.  Some gun control proposals would be an example. Seems many here are concerned about the "slippery slope "... hmmm... interesting...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2021, 03:30:23 PM »
An analogy would be arresting everyone at a sporting event and charging them with felonies because a few fans got in a fight in the stands. Crimes such as property damage, assult and theft already exist. Regardless of protest or not, it's still a crime to do everything this bill "hopes to protect against."

This law is clearly designed to stifle people's ability to peaceably assemble for fear they'll be lumped in with the actions of others. It's also ironic to see small government conservatives throwing their support behind this law, which gives the government broader power to stifle whole groups of people based on the actions of the few. But as long as it's "hurting the right people", they'll cheer on because "it could never happen to them..."

Pretty sure we just saw a right wing riot in DC a short time ago...

Technically, it was an attempted insurrection.
Lol...ok...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

jaxlongtimer

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2021, 05:08:35 PM »
The concern is that it only takes a few people with bad intent to turn a peaceful demonstration into a "riot" - smash a few windows, kick a police car, don't leave when the cops tell you to, and so on - or if the police believe there is an "imminent danger" of property damage or personal injury. Here is the definition of "Riot" from the new law:
Quote
870.01
(2) A person commits a riot if he or she willfully participates in a violent public disturbance involving an assembly of three or more persons, acting with a common intent to assist each other in violent and disorderly conduct, resulting in:
(a) Injury to another person;
(b) Damage to property; or
(c) Imminent danger of injury to another person or damage to property.

Once the excrement hits the ventilator, the police won't take the time to sort out who is a "rioter" and who is a "peaceful demonstrator" - they will arrest everyone, and let the courts sort out which is who.

Those arrested will have to stay in jail until their first court appearance
Quote
870.01
(6) Except for a violation of subsection (1), a person arrested for a violation of this section shall be held in custody until brought before the court for admittance to bail in accordance with chapter 903.

Subsection (1) defines "affray" - basically fighting in public "to the terror of people".

The "bad actors" could be people on your side whose passions get the better of them, and they lose control. Or, the "bad actors" could be folks from the other side who want to cause problems to your group.  No matter, that peaceful demonstration has turned into a riot. You now have a felony arrest on your record.  Fear of arrest for something over which that have no control will deter some people from attending a peaceful protest, from exercising their First Amendment rights.

Charles, good points to note.

This clause is notable:  "...acting with a common intent to assist each other..."  The FBI and Justice Department are having to do massive work to demonstrate this for the Capitol's insurrectionists with all the cameras, witnesses and other evidence they are gathering.  Imagine what it would take to prove this in court for a "spur of the moment action" by a single demonstrator that led to massive arrests of many or all protestors on site.  What a waste of resources for a losing cause.

I might add that on the anniversary of Kent State I read that one of the students killed was just walking by on the way to classes and had nothing to do with the protests.  I wonder if anyone is "mishandled" by the police at a protest, if this law gives the police the benefit of the doubt.  Kind of like "stand your ground" for the police.  In this current world where police are being scrutinized for overzealous reactions, it seems like this law is going in the wrong direction.  Will this law prevent the police from being held accountable for acting outside the bounds of appropriateness?

Separately, I have read that the police already have all the legal tools they need to arrest "violent" or otherwise non-peaceful protesters and this law adds nothing to their enforcement powers - it just gives them more cover to "intimidate" protestors given the wide discretion they will now have (i.e. guilty until proven innocent).

Even with our conservative majority Supreme Court, I will be surprised if this law is constitutionally sustained.

Tacachale

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2021, 05:32:40 PM »
I don’t know about the rest of Florida but Jacksonville only had one riot out of dozens of protests. It was after the first one, and it hasn’t happened at any protest since. The law isn’t based on anything that happened around here.

Do we need to wait for a Minneapolis, Portland, or DC happen here?  Reasonable limits to constitutional rights are pretty common... with some people wanting drastic limits.  Some gun control proposals would be an example. Seems many here are concerned about the "slippery slope "... hmmm... interesting...

The police locally hasn’t had any trouble managing the protests after the first one. And it’s been nearly a year. The law should be based on actual situations, not hypothetical ones.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2021, 07:01:33 PM »
I don’t know about the rest of Florida but Jacksonville only had one riot out of dozens of protests. It was after the first one, and it hasn’t happened at any protest since. The law isn’t based on anything that happened around here.

Do we need to wait for a Minneapolis, Portland, or DC happen here?  Reasonable limits to constitutional rights are pretty common... with some people wanting drastic limits.  Some gun control proposals would be an example. Seems many here are concerned about the "slippery slope "... hmmm... interesting...

The police locally hasn’t had any trouble managing the protests after the first one. And it’s been nearly a year. The law should be based on actual situations, not hypothetical ones.

Cmon... what happened in Minneapolis, Portland and countless other cities is hardly hypothetical...lol.  But seriously... no worries. I long ago decided city core living was not for me... I will visit them like I would  a amusement park or ticket taking carnival attraction.  You and yours can tax each other to death for the privilege of squeezing together on mass transit, small expensive apartments, and peaceful protests...
I will be moving into the quietness of the rural countryside gardening and building my apiary.

Beware that slippery slope... it comes for everyone... lol
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Tacachale

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2021, 09:12:34 PM »
I don’t know about the rest of Florida but Jacksonville only had one riot out of dozens of protests. It was after the first one, and it hasn’t happened at any protest since. The law isn’t based on anything that happened around here.

Do we need to wait for a Minneapolis, Portland, or DC happen here?  Reasonable limits to constitutional rights are pretty common... with some people wanting drastic limits.  Some gun control proposals would be an example. Seems many here are concerned about the "slippery slope "... hmmm... interesting...

The police locally hasn’t had any trouble managing the protests after the first one. And it’s been nearly a year. The law should be based on actual situations, not hypothetical ones.

Cmon... what happened in Minneapolis, Portland and countless other cities is hardly hypothetical...lol.  But seriously... no worries. I long ago decided city core living was not for me... I will visit them like I would  a amusement park or ticket taking carnival attraction.  You and yours can tax each other to death for the privilege of squeezing together on mass transit, small expensive apartments, and peaceful protests...
I will be moving into the quietness of the rural countryside gardening and building my apiary.

Beware that slippery slope... it comes for everyone... lol

Not sure why crimes in Minneapolis would require changing laws in Florida that were working, nor do I live in a small apartment, but I do hope you enjoy your apiary and gardening. I’ve enjoyed learning to garden too.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

JeffreyS

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2021, 09:26:35 PM »
Isn't there a difference between a riot and a peaceful assembly?  There certainly seems to be...
According to this law the difference could be one person acting badly suddenly it’s now called a riot. One more thing for me personally I am tired of laws going on the books that if you fear danger you get to defend yourself the same as if there is actually real danger.
Lenny Smash

bl8jaxnative

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2021, 09:04:03 AM »
And I'm tired of people claiming theirs a clear, measurable way of determining that the it's only fear and not an actual threat.

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2021, 10:06:28 AM »
Isn't there a difference between a riot and a peaceful assembly?  There certainly seems to be...
According to this law the difference could be one person acting badly suddenly it’s now called a riot. One more thing for me personally I am tired of laws going on the books that if you fear danger you get to defend yourself the same as if there is actually real danger.

You mean like the actual chances that you will be shot by a cop as opposed to one of your neighbors?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

JeffreyS

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2021, 10:23:46 AM »
Isn't there a difference between a riot and a peaceful assembly?  There certainly seems to be...
According to this law the difference could be one person acting badly suddenly it’s now called a riot. One more thing for me personally I am tired of laws going on the books that if you fear danger you get to defend yourself the same as if there is actually real danger.

You mean like the actual chances that you will be shot by a cop as opposed to one of your neighbors?
I mean we have set the standard too low for the use of deadly force by anyone. In this bill specifically the idea of running people over.
Lenny Smash

BridgeTroll

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Re: New 'Anti-Mob' law, is it unconstitutional?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2021, 10:36:12 AM »
Isn't there a difference between a riot and a peaceful assembly?  There certainly seems to be...
According to this law the difference could be one person acting badly suddenly it’s now called a riot. One more thing for me personally I am tired of laws going on the books that if you fear danger you get to defend yourself the same as if there is actually real danger.

You mean like the actual chances that you will be shot by a cop as opposed to one of your neighbors?
I mean we have set the standard too low for the use of deadly force by anyone. In this bill specifically the idea of running people over.

Apparently exaggerations of perceived dangers are plentiful...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."