Author Topic: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road  (Read 4098 times)

Tacachale

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^I believe those prejudices have a lot to do with why the Landing is gone as well. Some of us need to have a newsflash and get more familiar with Jax's actual demographics today and the trends of where things are headed. It's becoming a more racially and culturally diverse city, where minorities will soon become the majority....(this may have already happened). So if people are envisioning downtown's future as a homogeneous space like St. Johns County or the Beaches, they may as well move to those places because that's not where things are headed.


That's definitely the case. For folks who aren't on Twitter, we got a reply from a person who said he was happy taking his wife and kids to the New Found Glory concert because he had been scared to take them to the Landing. Unfortunately many of our decision makers and bigwigs seem to be of the opinion that what makes them most comfortable, eg pop punk concerts instead of mostly minority owned businesses, is what everyone wants Downtown.

Re the scooters, if they scare pearl clutchers like Simms, they're doing something right. Keep it up, 16-24 year olds.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

MusicMan

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What's the chance of activating the food truck space across from Lenny's Lawn to accommodate the scooter crowd at night?
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BridgeTroll

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

simms3

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Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.
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simms3

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.
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BridgeTroll

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.

I get that... I spent an inordinate amount of time arguing on this forum with a serial name caller... it’s just not necessary.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

MusicMan

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Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?" 

thelakelander

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Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.

I'd say I was an average immature teenage boy who did average teenage boy things. I grew up in the hood (my town was very segregated). Whenever two or three Black males like me would get together, we'd be stereotyped. I can't tell you the number of times I was pulled over by police for nothing or followed around stores like I was going to take something. Anyway, back home, if we had something like scooters, I can image that me and my friends would have been riding around on them. We didn't, so me and my other teenage co-workers did stupid stuff after we'd get off work from Winn-Dixie, like drive to hotels down the street, knock on random doors and run. Our shift would be over around 11pm or midnight, so that would have put us in the same time frame. As far as our parents knew.....we were working late or spending the night at a friend's house. While doing stupid teenage things, we weren't out robbing anyone. Anyway, after blowing my first year of community college, I transferred to FAMU in Tallahassee. There, I did just enough to pass classes. I got more serious with school my last year or two.
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simms3

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.

I get that... I spent an inordinate amount of time arguing on this forum with a serial name caller... it’s just not necessary.

True that...

Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?" 

The "public" scooter craze started in SF probably ~5 years ago.  It got off to a rocky start there and never pleased the masses - in fact, I would argue it made a lot of people insanely mad and it got tons of negative press right from the start ("Private" scooters people buy to commute that can cost thousands of dollars also still piss people off - namely ALL the people who don't ride a scooter).  The same companies started dumping in other cities and I'm pretty sure every city the scooter program has been started in ever since has seen much the same results - the same groups of people using them and the same frustrations by the general masses.

Jax probably decided to go forward with the program "because every other big city has a scooter program and Jax just isn't in the 'club' of the elite cities without the same program".  People are sheeple and cities are run by people.  Go figure.

A better program would have been a bike program - the same people that use the scooters now at night can also use the bikes, but the bikes in other cities get a lot more daytime, tourist, and general masses use and don't seem to get the same kind of use we are complaining about now at night.  Nobody is discriminated against with the bikes, but for whatever reason, they don't follow the same use patterns (that I have seen) and don't have the same level of complaints.

Perhaps the barrier to entry is cost - some of the bike programs require a heftier fee or a monthly or annual commitment, but even the bike program in SF was something like $80/annually, so it's not an insane amount of money.  Perhaps they don't get the same nighttime use because a lot of people using the scooters now already have bikes and so that is "boring" to them.  Not sure, just a hunch.

Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.

I'd say I was an average immature teenage boy who did average teenage boy things. I grew up in the hood (my town was very segregated). Whenever two or three Black males like me would get together, we'd be stereotyped. I can't tell you the number of times I was pulled over by police for nothing or followed around stores like I was going to take something. Anyway, back home, if we had something like scooters, I can image that me and my friends would have been riding around on them. We didn't, so me and my other teenage co-workers did stupid stuff after we'd get off work from Winn-Dixie, like drive to hotels down the street, knock on random doors and run. Our shift would be over around 11pm or midnight, so that would have put us in the same time frame. As far as our parents knew.....we were working late or spending the night at a friend's house. While doing stupid teenage things, we weren't out robbing anyone. Anyway, after blowing my first year of community college, I transferred to FAMU in Tallahassee. There, I did just enough to pass classes. I got more serious with school my last year or two.

Ok, well I grew up with a bit more structure and most of those I grew up with the same and so I have that to go by as a recipe for general success in life.  I have no shame in how I grew up - I grew up well.  I would want the same for EVERY child, but it's a crap shoot unfortunately nowadays and instead of addressing it (the problems that lead to men taking to the streets at an early age and committing crime), we are ok'ing it.

You may have turned up well, but many kids in your situation or with less structure/more brokenness don't come out ok and I don't blame the kids, but I do blame a society that says it's all ok and looks the other way.

The fact of the matter is we should not have 16-17, or even really 18 year olds with no structure just roaming around downtown late at night with other men, some of whom may be in their 20s, some of whom may be gang members, without supervision.  Do we really need more examples like Adam Toledo in Chicago for proof?!?

My parents always said "nothing good happens after midnight".  For young young people, I'd say that's true once the sun goes down.  Yes, I snuck out at night on weekends and went to friends' or a park in the neighborhood.  That's going to happen.  But I knew the rules and I paid the consequences when caught, and it was not a weeknight ordeal.  My parents required as close to all A's as possible and enforced a future wide open for success if I worked hard in school as a teen.  That is not conducive to absenteeism that allows bands of young men alone with themselves at 11 on a Tuesday somewhere in the city that probably isn't even their neighborhood.  Why should we be ok with that?  It's not how I would raise my kids, would you?  Society pays the consequences, AS DO THE KIDS eventually.

And it is only common sense and self-preservation for people to factor in crime stats when deciding what to do about coming downtown at night under certain circumstances, this precise circumstance notwithstanding.
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thelakelander

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Ok, well I grew up with a bit more structure and most of those I grew up with the same and so I have that to go by as a recipe for general success in life.  I have no shame in how I grew up - I grew up well.  I would want the same for EVERY child, but it's a crap shoot unfortunately nowadays and instead of addressing it (the problems that lead to men taking to the streets at an early age and committing crime), we are ok'ing it.

You may have turned up well, but many kids in your situation or with less structure/more brokenness don't come out ok and I don't blame the kids, but I do blame a society that says it's all ok and looks the other way.

You don't have to tell me. I'm one of three brothers and the only sibling that has never been arrested. I have childhood friends that are in prison for life and a host of others and family who have done prison time. Good people with good hearts, just got caught up. We are largely products of our environments and the laws, stereotypes and policies of this society have created the conditions of disenfranchised communities we see today. It will take decades to repair what was systemically broken apart. My personal experience, history, social and cultural understanding has led me into the planning field, where I can use my access to quietly change the systemic barriers that continue limit minorities disproportionally. It also has the added benefit of being a Black male role model for the younger generation.

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The fact of the matter is we should not have 16-17, or even really 18 year olds with no structure just roaming around downtown late at night with other men, some of whom may be in their 20s, some of whom may be gang members, without supervision.  Do we really need more examples like Adam Toledo in Chicago for proof?!?

I don't know the ages of whoever you saw, their family structure or anything like that but I will say that I'd rather them have fun with their friends riding around on e-scooters than selling dope on the corner. Again, I'll also stress that I've seen more than just Black males riding e-scooters in downtown at night.

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My parents always said "nothing good happens after midnight".  For young young people, I'd say that's true once the sun goes down.  Yes, I snuck out at night on weekends and went to friends' or a park in the neighborhood.  That's going to happen.  But I knew the rules and I paid the consequences when caught, and it was not a weeknight ordeal.  My parents required as close to all A's as possible and enforced a future wide open for success if I worked hard in school as a teen.  That is not conducive to absenteeism that allows bands of young men alone with themselves at 11 on a Tuesday somewhere in the city that probably isn't even their neighborhood.  Why should we be ok with that?  It's not how I would raise my kids, would you?  Society pays the consequences, AS DO THE KIDS eventually.

You grew up lucky and privileged. You should be proud. Not everyone is so fortunate. The best thing we can do is work to change our most distressed environments, invest in them and kids at an early age.

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And it is only common sense and self-preservation for people to factor in crime stats when deciding what to do about coming downtown at night under certain circumstances, this precise circumstance notwithstanding.

No doubt, downtown has a host of problems. Tearing down the Landing, partially because of suburbanites being scared because it was frequented by Black and Brown people on a consistent basis was one of them. Knowing the history of this city, eliminating fishing (most people can't afford boats) in downtown was probably mixed in the same bit of perspective. Nevertheless, unless we can prove that these kids are committing crimes downtown, I would not worry too much about them.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

itsfantastic1

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Simms, I don't know you but I'm honestly astounded that somehow you see kids on scooters in Downtown Jacksonville (which have to be rented) and feel the need to mention your anecdotal experiences with riders of a certain skin color and then expound about crime statistics, gangs, the moral failings of society and how your upbringing is the ONLY and RIGHT way to raise a child.

What should've been a discussion of how to educate people using the scooters to stay safe turned into some weird-ass lecture from you that offered nothing of benefit to this discussion.

I look forward to you producing evidence of e-scooter based gang activity or a great thesis on how the hours children spend out past 6 pm lead to the fall of western civilization. However, if there is one gamechanger for crime in Jacksonville; it's definitely in stopping teenagers from using scooters past bedtime.

Tacachale

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

If you don't like that, I'm glad you didn't see typed before replacing it with pearl clutchers.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

If you don't like that, I'm glad you didn't see typed before replacing it with pearl clutchers.

I appreciate the new blurry line...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

bl8jaxnative

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Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?"

Until recently, these scooters were ( baselessly ) praised over being a solution to the last mile problem.

I think now that the scooter companies financials have shown it's anything but niche..... not sure they have a purpose.

thelakelander

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^Are you saying the scooter companies are losing money?
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali