Author Topic: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase  (Read 5928 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #105 on: April 15, 2021, 06:19:21 PM »
Here's the clarification from JTA:

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The $379 million comprises the remaining phases of the U2C program, including the rehabilitation and conversion of the existing Skyway superstructure, neighborhood expansions and other capital costs related to the project. Phase 1 – the Bay Street Innovation Corridor ($44M) is fully funded and not part of this proposal.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #106 on: April 15, 2021, 06:40:47 PM »
So it's actually $423 million overall. And the remaining portions would have an even higher per-mile cost, despite their reports claiming all extensions would be in mixed traffic.

Imagine how far that money could have gone with a proven vehicle type. Or could still go, if JTA can get out of the sunken cost trap.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:59:42 PM by marcuscnelson »
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thelakelander

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #107 on: April 15, 2021, 07:22:00 PM »
Streetcar is cheaper. According to JTA's documents, a Streetcar system can be built at $28 million per mile. Unfortunately,  that mode is not on the table and hasn't been in years. It is agreed that dedicated lanes make most sense. However, as long as the plan is to run something at grade on Bay Street (DIA) and Main Street (FDOT), that's not an option. Neither will let them at this point. I actually doubt they'll be allowed on Main Street at all if they can't operate safely at the posted speed limit of 30mph or whatever it is. So that's definitely not a phase happening on the front end.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #108 on: April 15, 2021, 08:09:26 PM »
According to this document, the plan (at least the recommendation) is actually to run all expansions at-grade in mixed traffic, starting with the North corridor to UF after Bay Street is completed.

If Bay Street is 3 miles, and my numbers here are right, the rest of the system will cost about $54 million per mile.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #109 on: April 15, 2021, 08:22:29 PM »
I can't see the link but how would they run an extension to Atlantic Boulevard in San Marco at grade? No way FEC allows a new at-grade crossing in San Marco. The more and more the numbers rise, I think we'd be better off leaving the Skyway alone as is and implementing a completely separate at-grade AV, streetcar or LRT corridor. This is way past the affordable option mentioned back in 2015. For 1/2 a billion (I'm sold that the price will continue to rise), you could build a decent starter line of just about any type of transit mode.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #110 on: April 15, 2021, 09:11:34 PM »
I'll quote "Summary of Preferred Routes" from the report to (not) answer that question:

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The Southeast Extension (San Marco) Corridor would connect the existing Riverplace and Kings Avenue stations to proposed stations at San Marco East and The District. For this corridor, Route A connecting Kings Avenue Station to Atlantic Boulevard via FEC ROW route was selected as the primary route alternative to be advanced for San Marco East. Route Y – Kings Avenue Station was chosen to provide service to The District. The FEC ROW route’s operational, physical characteristics, and safety rankings outperformed the other alternatives and the Kings Avenue Station route to The District outperformed the other alternative in all categories. If a mixed traffic option is advanced, the preferred route is from Kings Avenue Station to Kings Avenue and to Atlantic Boulevard.

Further justification:

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While Route A, using the FEC Right of Way (ROW), had more customer service challenges than other route alternatives, its operational and safety rankings generally outperformed the other alternatives. Route A received a ranking of three for safety considerations due to proximity to the railroad. Furthermore, the FEC ROW route offered the most direct route that also had the least number of left turns and intersections.

It's not super clear, but I think the intention is to have elevated route until over the FEC, then go down to grade along the FEC until reaching the end of the line.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #111 on: April 15, 2021, 09:24:03 PM »
That would make sense. That would be a carry over from the previous Skyway extension plans that predate the U2C.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #112 on: April 15, 2021, 10:10:41 PM »
I think looking through a lot of these documents it's clear that at some point this all became more about "the first autonomous vehicle network in America" than about "fostering Downtown vibrancy". It's truly insane that after getting the cost estimates they apparently never stopped for even a moment to reconsider that maybe this wasn't the most cost-effective option anymore. Or that it was never actually a guarantee that the technology would truly be ready on time, or at all. Or that experimenting with vehicle technology isn't actually their job. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills watching all this happen.

And for Lea & Elliott to claim in their report that

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The driverless automated transit solution is evolving at such a rapid pace; one can expect that within a short amount of time, it will be able to accommodate most urban transit needs and solutions.

Is just… an utter insult. Half a billion dollars based on the idea that it'll all fall into place "within a short amount of time."
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #113 on: April 15, 2021, 10:26:32 PM »
I think looking through a lot of these documents it's clear that at some point this all became more about "the first autonomous vehicle network in America" than about "fostering Downtown vibrancy". It's truly insane that after getting the cost estimates they apparently never stopped for even a moment to reconsider that maybe this wasn't the most cost-effective option anymore. Or that it was never actually a guarantee that the technology would truly be ready on time, or at all. Or that experimenting with vehicle technology isn't actually their job. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills watching all this happen.

Which is why I can't personally support the gas tax.

I'd happily pay triple the gas tax if I had confidence that JTA had a good long-term plan for their half of the money.

Instead, JTA's tripling-down on a losing proposition so we can all pretend like we're Epcot.

Cool.

Cool cool cool.

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #114 on: April 15, 2021, 10:35:15 PM »
I'm just hoping they come to their senses with it. At least from the gas tax perspective. It's something that will bring the entire gas tax proposal down in flames. Any reason why the Bay Street Innovation Corridor has not started yet? It's already years behind and is fully funded. Is it because the desired technology hasn't advanced to a point to where it can be deployed safely on the streets as a viable mass transit solution?
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #115 on: April 15, 2021, 10:46:50 PM »
My impression of things is that there's no way they're going to come to their senses on their own. They're in too deep. At some point City Council has to be the one to demand a change in direction.

As far as Bay Street, for whatever reason it wasn't until mid last year that they actually became able to spend the money, and then it took months for them to get an RFQ out. Then we've got to wait a few more months for them to pick which of the two consortiums to work with. Then that consortium will spend 18-24 months actually designing the system. Then they start construction, which is supposed to be finished by 2025. During which, they seem to be hoping that someone is going to find the key to fully autonomous self driving vehicles, and hopefully it's one of the companies they already picked.

You were with them the other day, what did they show you of it? Any demonstration of some kind?
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #116 on: April 15, 2021, 10:48:56 PM »
I'm just hoping they come to their senses with it. At least from the gas tax perspective. It's something that will bring the entire gas tax proposal down in flames. Any reason why the Bay Street Innovation Corridor has not started yet? It's already years behind and is fully funded. Is it because the desired technology hasn't advanced to a point to where it can be deployed safely on the streets as a viable mass transit solution?

Don't forget the fact that the entire Bay Street Innovation corridor was sold to the Feds on sure-thing developments at Lot J (a contaminated parking lot), the Shipyards (a toxic brownfield), a new convention center at Ford on Bay (an empty lawn fronting a doomed restaurant), and Berkman II (a dangerous exoskeleton that no fewer than four firms believe they will be demolishing).

Even if it breaks ground, I honestly don't even know where it goes.

It's just so frustrating to see us lobbying for all this federal funding under dubious pretenses and then just setting it on fire with things like the Hart Bridge ramp removal and the Bay Street Innovation Corridor.

When we're competing against numerous other cities in the future for grants who are actually putting their transportation funding to good use, these things are really going to come back to haunt us.

itsfantastic1

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #117 on: April 15, 2021, 11:20:30 PM »
What's funny to me is that JTA is willing to drop over $300 million on an unproven, novel 12 person van with no driver barely capable of keeping up with the traffic it's being mixed in with after ramping down from a monorail track like it's no big deal...

...but then drops only a couple of million for a study about possibly moving a train station back to... a former train station, for a mode of transportation that's been proven for almost 200 years.

marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #118 on: April 16, 2021, 12:26:52 AM »
Don't forget the fact that the entire Bay Street Innovation corridor was sold to the Feds on sure-thing developments at Lot J (a contaminated parking lot), the Shipyards (a toxic brownfield), a new convention center at Ford on Bay (an empty lawn fronting a doomed restaurant), and Berkman II (a dangerous exoskeleton that no fewer than four firms believe they will be demolishing).

Even if it breaks ground, I honestly don't even know where it goes.

It's just so frustrating to see us lobbying for all this federal funding under dubious pretenses and then just setting it on fire with things like the Hart Bridge ramp removal and the Bay Street Innovation Corridor.

When we're competing against numerous other cities in the future for grants who are actually putting their transportation funding to good use, these things are really going to come back to haunt us.

After living through this from about start to… wherever it's going, it makes me realize why so many people are so cynical about our city's future. This level of institutional failure in developing a practical urban transportation system is just… stunning. For those that went through it, is this what it was like during the initial BRT proposal?

Odds are the American Jobs Plan is going to pass, and the DOT or whoever is going to start deciding who gets a slice of the $80 billion in transportation funding. Most cities are going to propose commuter rail or subway expansions or streetcar networks. And we're going to come to them with this. I could cry.

What's funny to me is that JTA is willing to drop over $300 million on an unproven, novel 12 person van with no driver barely capable of keeping up with the traffic it's being mixed in with after ramping down from a monorail track like it's no big deal...

...but then drops only a couple of million for a study about possibly moving a train station back to... a former train station, for a mode of transportation that's been proven for almost 200 years.

Like I said, at some point this stopped being about actually serving as a useful transportation system and started being about the glory of hosting the nation's first level 5 AV network. Meanwhile Ford, a billion-dollar company that is investing billions into autonomy, just announced that they were able to get to around level 2 after years of development.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase
« Reply #119 on: April 16, 2021, 01:02:16 AM »
What's funny to me is that JTA is willing to drop over $300 million on an unproven, novel 12 person van with no driver...

Hold the horses!  Go back and re-read the EasyMile website quote I previously posted (re-posted below for convenience) that these "driverless" vehicles actually operate with "remote supervision."  If that is the case, they are basically drones and not truly "autonomous" vehicles.  As such, every vehicle may require one dedicated "remote driver" to operate it.  This would make "autonomous" just an illusion, not a reality.  Maybe Ennis can verify this with his JTA friends.

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We designed the EZ10 with appropriate levels of safety and system redundancies to enable safe operation with entirely remote supervision in specified operational design domains (ODDs), especially private sites like master planned communites, residential areas, business parks and the list goes on.