Author Topic: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa  (Read 2353 times)

thelakelander

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Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« on: December 08, 2020, 08:39:37 PM »
Quote


Depending on what side of the fence a person falls on, the Lot J development proposed by Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan, is viewed as either a downtown gamechanger or a smaller, more expensive version of the failed Jacksonville Landing. While the scope of the heavily debated $450 million project has shrunk in recent weeks, the financial demands of taxpayers have remained the same. As things currently stand, Lot J will bring 350 residential units, a 120 room hotel, 35,000 square feet of Class A office space, and 75,000 square feet of retail and dining space in the form of Cordish's Live! entertainment center concept. With that in mind, Jacksonville isn't the only town with a major infill development proposed. In fact, most cities of similar size have comparable developments either proposed or already under construction in them. Midtown Tampa is an example of what $500 million will get you in suburban Tampa.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/midtown-tampa-what-500-million-gets-you-in-tampa/
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Ken_FSU

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2020, 08:51:49 PM »
Amazing!

Don't forget that $500 million also gets you 1,850 structured parking spots in Tampa (1,100 in the main garage, another 700 in the Whole Foods garage*), compared to a paltry 600 structured parking spaces for our meager $450 million spend.

Should have sprung for the deluxe package.

*https://barrandbarr.com/project/midtown-tampa-development/

MusicMan

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2020, 09:12:10 PM »
"As things currently stand, Lot J will bring 350 residential units, a 120 room hotel, 35,000 square feet of Class A office space, and 75,000 square feet of retail and dining space in the form"..............IN THE MIDDLE OF A PARKING LOT, A HALF MILE FROM THE JAIL, SURROUNDED BY MORE ASPHALT!

Fucking insanity.

thelakelander

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2020, 09:30:14 PM »
Does anyone consider Midtown Tampa to be a game changer for Tampa? Does anyone here expect that tourist will come to Tampa because of this project?
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tufsu1

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2020, 10:19:36 PM »
Does anyone consider Midtown Tampa to be a game changer for Tampa? Does anyone here expect that tourist will come to Tampa because of this project?

no - especially since it was first proposed around 2001. I think the land was acquired and mostly cleared over 15 years ago.

What it does do is start to densify the Dale Mabry corridor - and begin to bridge the gap between downtown and Westshore.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 10:31:53 PM by tufsu1 »

thelakelander

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2020, 10:39:38 PM »
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2020, 11:04:55 PM »
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?

As it aged, the Landing seemed to become a place, at most, to stop by for most people if they were already in the Downtown area looking for something to do.  And those people were most likely here for an event like Fla/Ga, Xmas lighting, July 4th fireworks, etc., I don't think the Landing was a destination capable of attracting many visitors, especially from out-of-town, all by itself.

Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex.  And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center.  I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!

If one assumes our biggest tourist draw is our beaches, I also don't see why someone on vacation would "come into town" to see it.  Now, if LIVE! was in Jacksonville Beach, that would be a different story.  Tourists already in the area might hit at night after a day at the beach.  Downtown has no tourists traffic aside from special events so there isn't a sustainable natural constituency.

Add it all up, and I agree, Lot J isn't going to be transformational for Downtown.  It will be transformational for taxpayers' and Khan's wallets though, with opposite effects  8).

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2020, 12:05:21 AM »
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?

As it aged, the Landing seemed to become a place, at most, to stop by for most people if they were already in the Downtown area looking for something to do.  And those people were most likely here for an event like Fla/Ga, Xmas lighting, July 4th fireworks, etc., I don't think the Landing was a destination capable of attracting many visitors, especially from out-of-town, all by itself.

Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex.  And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center.  I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!

If one assumes our biggest tourist draw is our beaches, I also don't see why someone on vacation would "come into town" to see it.  Now, if LIVE! was in Jacksonville Beach, that would be a different story.  Tourists already in the area might hit at night after a day at the beach.  Downtown has no tourists traffic aside from special events so there isn't a sustainable natural constituency.

Add it all up, and I agree, Lot J isn't going to be transformational for Downtown.  It will be transformational for taxpayers' and Khan's wallets though, with opposite effects  8).
"Likewise, after a novelty period, I don't see Lot J pulling in many visitors other than during events in the sports complex.  And, most of those visitors will be locals cannibalized from other venues in the urban core or maybe from Town Center.  I can't imagine someone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, New Orleans, Nashville, New York, or even in places between Daytona and Savannah or anywhere else waking up and saying, gee, we need to go to Jacksonville, FL to see LIVE! at Lot J!"

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marcuscnelson

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2020, 01:16:05 AM »
^The reason I ask is because there are still people in this community who believe Lot J is some sort of transformational project that will attract millions of people to downtown. If this is not a gamechanger, something significantly smaller in Jacksonville will not be either, no matter who builds it. Other than that, how does Lot J continue to drop in scale but the financial incentives level remains the same? I mean, if we're going to put this much money into a project, should it not be more significant in size, with a cost/sf in the range of similar projects across the state and country?

I mean, that's because people like Mark Lamping have just outright lied about what the project is and what the results will be. 2-3 million more visitors a year? Really? And with how much the scale has changed, chances are the current renderings are out of date anyway. Of course they're refusing to allow public accessibility for what Khan's actual investment will be, so we won't know until the bill passes. It's such a disappointing mess, and embarrassing to see the likelihood of the city choosing to wear this albatross.
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MusicMan

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2020, 08:35:53 AM »
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that?  That's ridiculous.  By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.

Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors?  Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.

Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan?  Now that would be a game changer. 8)

In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 09:35:17 AM by MusicMan »

Charles Hunter

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2020, 09:44:30 AM »
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that?  That's ridiculous.  By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.

Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors?  Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.

Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan?  Now that would be a game changer. 8)

In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!

Don't forget the game changer of game changers, a Fudruckers!

marcuscnelson

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2020, 11:01:17 AM »
Did Lamping say that about the 2-3 million visitors MORE per year? Can you source that?  That's ridiculous.  By that I mean Lot J will not bring in that amount of foot traffic.

Could Jacksonville create a dynamic downtown waterfront that can capture SOME of the southbound I 95 traffic, and also other visitors?  Yes of course, but LOT J will not do it.

Is there a bright shiny new STARBUCKS in the plan?  Now that would be a game changer. 8)

In fact, throw in a Chik Fil A with a double drive through and half of Jax will be there!!!

From my recollection, it was at the DIA meeting last week. I assume Lake was telling the truth here:

It was said that Lot J is estimated to attract an additional 2 to 3 million visitors to the sports district annually. To put that number in context with something that people can better understand locally, the 2009 DVI State of Downtown report estimated that the Landing attracted 4 to 4.5 million visitors annually between 2005 and 2009.

See page 14 in the link: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-state-of-downtown-2009-progress-report
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vicupstate

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2020, 11:04:25 AM »
How much, if any, public spending or tax abatement is involved with the Midtown Tampa project?
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thelakelander

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2020, 11:23:14 AM »
^Midtown Tampa is a market rate project. The developer did not request financial incentives from what we understand. However, that market and specifically, the Midtown Tampa location, is in a much more advantageous position for what's proposed, than the Lot J site.
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CityLife

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Re: Midtown Tampa: What $500 million gets you in Tampa
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2020, 11:59:39 AM »
^Midtown Tampa is a market rate project. The developer did not request financial incentives from what we understand. However, that market and specifically, the Midtown Tampa location, is in a much more advantageous position for what's proposed, than the Lot J site.
A project I recently worked on has a very similar development program as Lot J and also did not need any incentives, though like Midtown Tampa, it is in a much stronger market. Phase 1 is under construction and Phase 2 will be starting soon.

It's an existing development that has a few good anchor tenants like a movie theater, Whole Foods, and West Elm; but needs a major update. It's getting a new 150k square foot LifeTime Fitness (multi-story upscale club with rooftop pools), 9 story-174 room hotel, 8 story-283 unit apartment building, 28k of class-A Office, 4 story addition to an existing parking garage, new 461 parking space garage, major streetscape/hardscape improvements, and complete façade update of the existing center. Sadly, I don't know the overall cost of the redevelopment because it was shared by multiple entities.

Here's a bad marketing video
https://vimeo.com/431590070
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 12:33:35 PM by CityLife »