Author Topic: The Best Books About Jacksonville  (Read 1914 times)

bl8jaxnative

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2020, 09:03:53 AM »

I would recommend AGAINST Mann's streetcar book. It's plagued by gross inaccuracies and too often resorts to speculation and ideology instead of historical facts.

thelakelander

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2020, 09:08:46 AM »
I have a copy of it. What are some of the gross inaccuracies?
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2020, 09:38:20 AM »

The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap.  His yammering about GM, Flxble + Twin Coach is beyond inaccurate.  It's the transportation history equiv of some  old man spouting some claim about the election being stolen from Trump.  Sad stuff as far as historical accuracy ( total lack of it ).  Very sad.

He seems ignorant to the history of the bus. 

"  In 1920, only 16 traction companies operated supplement bus service, but by 1928, some 361 were offering these exhaust-spewing vehicles".

In 1920 buses would've been brand new and tiny.   For example Twin Coach wasn't founded until 1927.   Mann either doesn't understand this or, worse, has no interest in sharing this with the reader for important context.

The "exhaust-spewing" crap is , well, crap.  It's ideological coloring, not history.   He does often falls into that sort of puerile zealotry with this like "The eradicators continued their work...."

tufsu1

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2020, 11:40:16 AM »

The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap. 

so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?

Tacachale

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2020, 04:16:10 PM »

I would recommend AGAINST Mann's streetcar book. It's plagued by gross inaccuracies and too often resorts to speculation and ideology instead of historical facts.

I’m sure we’ll all take that under advisement.
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2020, 01:15:54 PM »

The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap. 

so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?

GM did not fund a company that bought street car lines.  It owned part of National City Lines.   NCL was founded ~15-20 years after the first streetlines + even entire systems in America were replaced by buses in the 1920s.  At it's peak around WWII NCL owned all or part of @4 dozen of the ~800 streetcar and interburban systems that existed in the US.

GM built diesel engines.  GM had bought EMD.    It would've been just as much, if not more, GM's financial interest to push and sell lower volume, higher margin streetcars.  It would've complimented their EMD diesel-electric locomotive business and dovetailed perfectly with building diesel engines for industrial uses.  There are historically known players in the streetcar market but not major players.  GM could've easily owned the it.

GM didn't get into the bus manufacturing business until WWII.

Streetcar lines were serverely handicapped by fare limitations cities put on them.  Streetcar lines frequently got exclusive franchises and use of city right of way for free, at least day to day free.  They were commonly obligated to maintain the street on and inbetween their rails.  Between high operating costs, fares kept artificially low by cities and the inability to raise capital, they switched to buses.  Most  of them, like Jacksonville's did it long before NCL was a twinkle in Sloan's eye.   


Every conspiracy theory is based on something that on a casual glance makes sense when alone in a void; when that 3% is all alone it seems to work. Someone say something moving in the swamp and found some weird footprints ergo skunk ape.  Or the way the astronauts moved wasn't consontant with being on the moon ergo faked + movie set.

The problem is the 97% overwhelming shows that just not how it worked. 

tufsu1

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2020, 03:02:57 PM »

The most glaring one is his embrace of the GM streetcar conspiracy theory crap. 

so you're saying GM didn't fund a company that bought streetcar lines - and then converted them to bus routes?

GM did not fund a company that bought street car lines.  It owned part of National City Lines.   NCL was founded ~15-20 years after the first streetlines + even entire systems in America were replaced by buses in the 1920s.  At it's peak around WWII NCL owned all or part of @4 dozen of the ~800 streetcar and interburban systems that existed in the US.

so yes - GM was associated with a company that owned streetcar lines. Thanks!

Tacachale

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2020, 01:10:02 PM »
I’ve never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it’s not the main focus of Bob Mann’s book.

Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We’d be better off with it.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Peter Griffin

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2020, 04:37:30 PM »
I’ve never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it’s not the main focus of Bob Mann’s book.

Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We’d be better off with it.

Don't think there's any streetcar haters, really unsure of where you pulled that imaginary point-of-view from in this thread. As for fixed transit, we have fixed transit in the form of a bus system and the (admittedly not-very-useful) monorail. Streetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.

Tacachale

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2020, 11:25:49 PM »
I’ve never done enough research on the streetcar conspiracy to know how much is true, but at any rate it’s not the main focus of Bob Mann’s book.

Also regardless of what streetcar haters think, I do wish we had fixed transit options here. We’d be better off with it.

Don't think there's any streetcar haters, really unsure of where you pulled that imaginary point-of-view from in this thread. As for fixed transit, we have fixed transit in the form of a bus system and the (admittedly not-very-useful) monorail. Streetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.

I was talking about the comments from bl8rjaxnative on rail transit and the above book.

Re fixed transit, what I mean is rail or other forms with their own permanent right of way. Buses are good for what they do but you’ll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic. Let alone the development boom. For that type of transit we only have the Skyway. And modern streetcars are a lot nicer than a bus or New Orleans’ models.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 10:11:45 AM by Tacachale »
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2020, 12:10:01 AM »
Streetcar would be cool in a nostalgia kind-of-way, but having ridden the New Orleans streetcars during the heat of summer, the air-conditioned comfort of a bus sure seems better, albeit less charming.

Bus (or clown car) in mixed traffic wouldn't provide 5% of the TOD of an actual fixed transit line, though.

My dream streetcar line in Jax would stretch from Memorial Park in Riverside, past Brooklyn, past the Landing site, straight down Bay Street to the Sports Complex/Met Park.

With a Phase II straight down Main Street into Springfield.

Deploy the clown cars into the urban neighborhoods to act is first/last mile feeders into a streetcar line and the Skyway, and you've got most of the urban core and surrounding neighborhood connected.

Side note, in a post-covid, germ-paranoid world, who in their right mind is going to want to cram into one of these tiny capsules with strangers:


thelakelander

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2020, 07:36:56 AM »
^That's a potentially big problem with these little AVs. I was thinking the same thing while riding the Skyway to the office yesterday. It will be interesting to see how the design of rolling stock changes due to Covid.  In the meantime, Tampa is getting more modern streetcar money....

https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/2020/12/08/florida-will-contribute-67-million-to-extend-tampa-streetcar/
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 01:37:43 PM »
Buses are good for what they do but you’ll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic.

There are bus lines today that carry a million passengers per hour.  Your claims about buses are completely inaccurate.

Tacachale

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2020, 01:46:27 PM »
Buses are good for what they do but you’ll never get the strong consistency and headways from something that mixes in traffic.

There are bus lines today that carry a million passengers per hour.  Your claims about buses are completely inaccurate.

Every word is true. Nothing that mixes in traffic is going to have the consistency of something with its own right of way. That’s effectively a tautology. It’s also far less likely to provide a development boost if the routes can change.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

bl8jaxnative

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Re: The Best Books About Jacksonville
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2020, 02:30:00 PM »
Every word is true. Nothing that mixes in traffic is going to have the consistency of something with its own right of way. That’s effectively a tautology. It’s also far less likely to provide a development boost if the routes can change.

Investors as spending $40M $75M, hundreds of millions on projects in this town that have zero transit access. The routes are superfluous. 

More importantly, public transit is for those that need transportation but struggle to provide for it.    Again, making the mode superflous.