Author Topic: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020  (Read 5299 times)

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2020, 04:49:11 PM »
^ Right, having these projects exist in a vacuum seems to be the point. Specifically, that the vacuum exists around the stadium.

I'm not saying I disagree with your project in principle Ken, it's just that we don't seem to be in a position to offer them all of that, and it's not clear that they'd actually want it. What I'm suggesting is intended for moving forward from where we are now. The hardest part would be (or at least should be) convincing the Jags to cut back to just remediation for now and get their house in order before making a bid to the public when people (hopefully) hate them less.

Convincing them to buy properties rather far from what they actually want to build, with the promise of transportation that works well enough to connect them to the stadium seems substantially steeper of a challenge.

As I said, I think it makes more sense with what we know now to

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Cut the current deal down to getting remediation done. But as much of it as possible. Lot J, the Shipyards, whatever in that area needs it. If that means $100m spent, then do it. Hopefully get started by early 2021 to finish in late '23/early '24.

The Jaguars need to spend the next two years getting their house in order, on and off the field. Actually have some real blueprints for Lot J and the Shipyards, and figure out exactly what they want from taxpayers for Stadium renovations. Ideally, the city is taking this time to get the NPS to agree to moving Metro Park, and finding the money to build the new park + museum district. Hopefully, the end result is something lovely and iconic, but at least something decent.

After a DIA review, and Council review (optional), put a referendum on the ballot, either in November 2022 or March 2023 for the combined cost of building the developments + stadium and a 30-year lease extension. Make the stakes clear, that this is about whether we want the Jags or we don't. It's going to be a gigantic number, but at least we know what that number is, and can make one yes or no decision as a city. If we say yes, contracts sign, vertical construction starts a few months later. If we say no, then I guess the next mayor could master plan the area or just offer up the parcels to whoever is willing to buy and build themselves. At that point either the Jags figure out something else or start looking for somewhere else to go.

If we say no, all we are out is the cost of remediation, the museums + parks (which one could argue we would have done anyway), and the ancillary costs of the Hart Ramps & Convention Center debacle. We can recoup some of those costs with selling the parcels and the resulting property taxes. Taking this path right now is a matter of convincing the Jags to do things they were supposed to do anyway, with something that needed to get done anyway. Versus having to essentially abandon their plans in favor of something different in places they clearly didn't want.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 04:55:56 PM by marcuscnelson »
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

vicupstate

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2020, 06:44:10 PM »
Ken_FSU, there is no way the Jags/Khan go for any of that.       
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marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2020, 07:31:04 PM »
Okay everyone, I was in the shower and I had an idea that is either really great or absolutely terrible. Time to see why I’m a Political Science major and not an Advertising major.

We’ve talked all about how Lot J is a dumb name, and let’s be frank, no one wants to think about "the Shipyards" anymore, they’re a sign of an old, beleaguered city, not a prosperous one with an NFL team! So I had an idea.

The center of the development is called Lot J. J stands for Jaguars. Jaguars live in the Jungle. This development, plus the stuff at the Shipyards, is on either side of Bay Street.

Imagine a day in fall of 2027. You’re driving down Bay Street from Downtown (because no one takes the YewTooSea since it always gets stuck and causes traffic).

You pass the Museum District and the Metro/Veterans/Whatever Park, and as you round the bend of the Hart Bridge ramps approaching street level, you see the sign. This monolith to your right, with huge letters welcoming you to this new neighborhood.

JUNGLE BAY
Jacksonville

You come out from behind the ramps and bam!  Custom wayfinding signage and fancy flags on lightpoles.

On your right, Parkside Residences at Jungle Bay, followed by Jungle Bay Medical and, you guessed it, Four Seasons Jungle Bay.

On your left, the future site of whatever corporation decides to move here, followed by the Residences at Jungle Bay, Loews Hotel and of course, Duval Live!

You then pass TIAA Bank Field with its lovely new partial roof on the left and the riverfront offices of whatever other companies on the right, before you abscond to the Hart Bridge because you were just passing through.

But think of the name! It’s exotic, it's sexy, it’s not "The District" or "Healthy Town" or Lot J!

How about that?

So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

downtownbrown

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2020, 09:15:06 AM »
That's pretty dang good, especially from a guy who quotes Ed Markey  ;D

JPalmer

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2020, 12:28:26 PM »
The Jungle will need a Roller Coaster, Carousel, and a nice Midway.

JPalmer

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2020, 12:36:07 PM »
This is how I imagine the Steelers felt about the Jaguars rolling into the Jungle yesterday.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 12:38:32 PM by JPalmer »

landfall

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2020, 03:09:21 PM »
Is there yet another meeting tomorrow? Sure I read in the daily record there was one scheduled.

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2020, 05:14:43 PM »
I wouldn't mind seeing the Jag's shift their investments to these Northbank properties but it seems like their entire proposal is for the purpose of having these uses around the stadium itself. Are there any examples of sports teams making these investments in other areas of their respective host cities, as opposed to being adjacent to the sports facility?

Ken_FSU, there is no way the Jags/Khan go for any of that.       

^ Right, having these projects exist in a vacuum seems to be the point. Specifically, that the vacuum exists around the stadium.

I'm not saying I disagree with your project in principle Ken, it's just that we don't seem to be in a position to offer them all of that, and it's not clear that they'd actually want it.

I do think we tend to forget that the Jaguars' initial preference was never to develop all of this stuff in the stadium parking lot. The switch to the Lot J plan was completely predicated on the city's inability to get its shit together on remediating the Shipyards, as well as the $35 million remediation estimate stalling all Shipyards talks because of the the pension crisis. The Jags original plan was to develop much further away from the stadium, beginning at Berkman II and working their way toward the stadium in subsequent phases. So I don't think they're as married to the idea that the development has to be in the stadium parking lot as people perhaps think they are. I think it was just what was available when the Shipyards talks fizzled.



Like I mentioned in the original post, just talking pure best-case fantasy for all parties involved. And from a Cordish perspective, going the Northbank infill/rehab route is actually much closer to the Kansas City model than building everything in isolation at the sports complex. Though the Power & Light district is near the Sprint Center arena in Kansas City, the arena has no major sports tenant, and I think people forget that KC's actual sports complex (where the Chiefs and Royals play) is more than 10 miles away from Power & Light.

Other reasons that I don't think it'd be that crazy to at least float the idea of the Jags/Cordish developing these parcels:

1) The Jags have indirectly expressed interest on the Ford on Bay property in the past. There were rumors of the Jags putting in a bid for the convention center RFP, and they also worked with Rimrock Devlin on the residential/hotel concept for the property as well. I take everything having to do with that convention center RFP with a grain of salt though, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Jags floated their convention center at the Shipyards less with the intent to build it, and more with the intent of railroading the Courthouse RFP and making sure that the city didn't spend $700 million on a convention center at the expense of their own developments.

2) Cordish really liked the Landing property. They redeveloped a similar festival marketplace in Norfolk, and were tracking the Landing before partnering with the Jags further down by the stadium. They might have been a good partner on the Landing had we not torn it down without exploring redevelopment. From Cordish's own social channel, here's Zed Smith (COO of Cordish who has been at all the City Hall meetings related to Lot J) discussing the property: https://youtu.be/90KAu9zv72c?t=140

Is there yet another meeting tomorrow? Sure I read in the daily record there was one scheduled.

Nope. There are yet another TWO meetings tomorrow on Lot J.


landfall

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2020, 05:23:07 PM »
Meetings about meetings!

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2020, 08:17:29 PM »
The Shipyards are still largely in the vicinity of the stadium. They've only grown closer to it since they began this journey. And it's worth pointing out how… ambiguous those early renderings are.

At the end of the day, Cordish is partnering with the Jags on this project. If they'd partnered with the Chiefs or Royals on P&L, I would expect it to be closer to where they play.

You already tossed the Ford on Bay, so I don't have anything to add there. In terms of the Landing, it's been discussed how that appears to be a victim of both Curry's attitude and the Jags' aspirations to do much of the same at Lot J. At the end of the day, Cordish has hitched their wagon to the Jags here, for better or worse.

That aside, after some thought, I do maintain that Jungle Bay sounds like a pretty cool name for these developments. Four Seasons Jungle Bay sounds way more interesting than Four Seasons Jacksonville. Although I guess it'd be Four Seasons Jacksonville Jungle Bay, but still. A real shame Hazouri has apparently decided to get through Lot J before looking for answers on everything else.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2020, 10:01:49 PM »
That aside, after some thought, I do maintain that Jungle Bay sounds like a pretty cool name for these developments. Four Seasons Jungle Bay sounds way more interesting than Four Seasons Jacksonville. Although I guess it'd be Four Seasons Jacksonville Jungle Bay, but still. A real shame Hazouri has apparently decided to get through Lot J before looking for answers on everything else.

Super catchy name, and I think the city and the Jags are facing an uphill battle trying to sell any mixed-use entertainment complex to the public when they keep calling it "Lot J," but let me counter.

In terms of brand and consumer preference studies, one thing really stands out as being increasingly important to consumers as the years go by:

Authenticity.

Jungle Bay is a great name, but it's not authentic (we have neither jungles nor bays) and runs counter to our marketing of the amazing natural resources we do have (namely the St. Johns River and the Atlantic Ocean).

In my humble opinion, the best name for the entire proposed development area between Berkman II and the Sports Complex is also the most obvious one that's staring us in the face:

The Jacksonville Shipyards.

For a city that devalues its history at every turn, the Shipyards is as authentic as Fisherman's Wharf, or the Inner Harbor, or the French Quarter.

Some BEAUTIFUL photos here showing off the area's history:

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-lost-jacksonville-the-jacksonville-shipyards

Jacksonville Live! at the Shipyards.

Four Season at the Jacksonville Shipyards.

Veterans Park at the Shipyards.

The USS Orleck (a literal ship) at the Jacksonville Shipyards.

MOSH Genesis at the Jacksonville Shipyards.

Doesn't reinvent the wheel, but it ties all of the proposed development together under one, cohesive, authentic brand.

As unrealistic as the first Shipyards proposal was, I still think Populous absolutely nailed the branding and design language.

https://vimeo.com/117124762




marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2020, 10:46:16 PM »
Super catchy name, and I think the city and the Jags are facing an uphill battle trying to sell any mixed-use entertainment complex to the public when they keep calling it "Lot J," but let me counter.

Right? Although it's been said that perhaps the bigger challenge is selling an expensive (for the public) mixed-use entertainment complex as one of the worst-performing teams in the league. I don't remember who said it, but "this would have been a very different conversation in 2017" is absolutely a great point.

In terms of brand and consumer preference studies, one thing really stands out as being increasingly important to consumers as the years go by:

Authenticity.

Jungle Bay is a great name, but it's not authentic (we have neither jungles nor bays) and runs counter to our marketing of the amazing natural resources we do have (namely the St. Johns River and the Atlantic Ocean).

In my humble opinion, the best name for the entire proposed development area between Berkman II and the Sports Complex is also the most obvious one that's staring us in the face:

The Jacksonville Shipyards.

For a city that devalues its history at every turn, the Shipyards is as authentic as Fisherman's Wharf, or the Inner Harbor, or the French Quarter.

I mean… yeah. I was only half-serious about
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let’s be frank, no one wants to think about "the Shipyards" anymore, they’re a sign of an old, beleaguered city, not a prosperous one with an NFL team!

When it's the NFL team's owner calling it the Shipyards. The only thing I'd point out is that we've heard "this is it, we're going to build at the Shipyards" for coming on twenty years now, and I don't know the brand power of the name at this point. Jungle Bay has an advantage in terms of spontaneity, as well as the (admittedly weak) references to both the Jaguars and Bay Street. Also, Lot J being across Bay Street makes that perhaps a little more challenging to call part of "the Shipyards." I think Khan recognizes this, which is why Lot J is still being called "Lot J." Speaking of which, should we capitalize The? As in, The Shipyards?

Edit: Also, oof at looking through that article to find
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2009 - Mayor John Peyton announces his intention to decide on a plan for the site's future before he leaves office in 2011.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 10:48:04 PM by marcuscnelson »
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey