Author Topic: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game  (Read 3616 times)

BridgeTroll

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2020, 08:06:37 AM »
My persistence with this attempt at discussion is to try and address the woman's distress and anguish regarding the shooting and the epidemic of shootings here in Jacksonville. My focus is on the gangs and drug dealers that are the cause. Lakelanders suggestions for remediation are spot on but even if adopted immediately would take years to see results. These communities need help now.

I also do not think the woman was critical of BLM but simply asking where is the outrage for THESE murders... and as is the norm... we simply move on and wait for the next one...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Adam White

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2020, 09:37:07 AM »
My persistence with this attempt at discussion is to try and address the woman's distress and anguish regarding the shooting and the epidemic of shootings here in Jacksonville. My focus is on the gangs and drug dealers that are the cause. Lakelanders suggestions for remediation are spot on but even if adopted immediately would take years to see results. These communities need help now.

I also do not think the woman was critical of BLM but simply asking where is the outrage for THESE murders... and as is the norm... we simply move on and wait for the next one...

Absolutely. I think Lakelander's suggestions make so much sense and I agree that systemic change won't happen overnight. But I think we're being distracted here, as two separate issues have been conflated. One being this murder and the other being BLM. As Lakelander pointed out initially (in response to some of the earlier posts), this has nothing to do with BLM.

And as I was saying, there is no reason why people in the community can't work to address any of the different issues they are facing separate from the BLM movement. BLM has one general focus and the fact that 'black on black crime' still exists is hardly an indictment of BLM.

The woman in the video was obviously very upset and I understand her point (I think) - broadly speaking, we've got to care about our communities and do something for ourselves. And that may be the case. But some who watched that video ended up using her comments as a stick to beat BLM with, which I think was pretty wrong-headed.

What I will say is things like violence, murder, etc plague our society and no workable solution can be imposed from above. People need to work together to fix these problems.

And I will end on this - if there is a 'code of silence' and it results, at least in part, from distrust of the police, why do we always seem to only look at that as a problem with those who distrust the police? Why are we not asking why that distrust exists? There are two sides to the coin.
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thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2020, 04:54:01 PM »
My persistence with this attempt at discussion is to try and address the woman's distress and anguish regarding the shooting and the epidemic of shootings here in Jacksonville. My focus is on the gangs and drug dealers that are the cause. Lakelanders suggestions for remediation are spot on but even if adopted immediately would take years to see results. These communities need help now.

I agree that our disenfranchised communities needed help not only now, but yesteryear as well. Because we've refused to invest in them for generations to get to where we are today, I'm of the opinion that there is no quick fix. We can throw all the people in jail we want and we have. Yet crime still and will continue to spiral out of control because we've done nothing to begin to change the pattern of generational poverty with no economic hope for the generation following those we want to lock up now. So there's always someone next in line to commit the next offense. First we have to accept that there are no quick fixes. There may be things to put a band aid on the problem in the short term but true change will take time to happen and dedicated long term investment in these communities to make change sustainable.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

BridgeTroll

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2020, 05:07:55 PM »
I don't know Lake... it seems pretty defeatist to me... people can take charge of their neighborhood... they can not tolerate criminals.  They can work with police instead of against them. There are success stories out there... simply telling these folks "too bad help might be coming in ten years "...  doesn't work for me and I suspect it won't work for them either...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

sandyshoes

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2020, 05:33:37 PM »
If I still knew shorthand, I would transcribe, word for word, the female witness's statement for you.  This witness, who I believe was black, as she asked "when are we going to [stop all the violence and] take care of our own lives" may need someone to educate her on the proper use of BLM, if you listen to her questions.  She, not I, made the statements wondering why they were not doing something about all this violence.  My take is that perhaps Black LIVES Matter is not the proper title for a group more concerned with economic prosperity - again, semantics.  Sounds more like it should be Black Economic Opportunities Matter, to get right at the crux of it all.  I agree , Bridgetroll, that there is a lot of discussion that needs to take place.   Transparency is the key and dancing around the issues gingerly is ineffective.  I began this thread because it was a good opportunity to get this woman heard, and maybe get people to discuss it and see where it needs addressing.  And for one person who commented they did not want this to deteriorate all the way down to a black and white issue, it's quite obvious that by its very name, Black Lives Matter, it is a black and white issue. 

BridgeTroll

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2020, 06:04:40 PM »
This is NOT a black/white, us/them issue. This is a criminal gang and drug dealer issue. By focusing on race you miss the real issues... there is a criminal element taking advantage of communities and it needs to stop...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2020, 06:20:06 PM »
I don't know Lake... it seems pretty defeatist to me... people can take charge of their neighborhood... they can not tolerate criminals.  They can work with police instead of against them.

I'm just sharing an opinion from the experience of growing up in a neighborhood that people here would describe as the "hood". Every bit as challenging to what Jax's poverty stricken communities have and continue to face.  There are no quick fixes, IMO. I say it from a perspective that if there were, we wouldn't be having people gunned down at kids football games in broad daylight by now. This isn't the first time this has happened in Jax (I'm pretty sure this happened in Grand Park a couple of years ago). The biggest common denominator in this communities is extreme poverty and a complete lack of support of consistent investment in the people who live in them.

People do take charge of their neighborhoods, to the best of their abilities and capacity. I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, that there are a lot of people putting in the work to make their neighborhoods a better place in this city. I know this for a fact because I've been on the front line hearing from them and included in some ongoing meetings to address various problems in our urban core. Nevertheless, to make a real dent, they're going to have to backed up by the city for longer than a single mayor's term. In addition, they'll need to be backed in a manner to where our public policies don't continue to act in a counterproductive way that further exasperates the problems.

Quote
There are success stories out there... simply telling these folks "too bad help might be coming in ten years "...  doesn't work for me and I suspect it won't work for them either...

This is a simplistic interpretation of what I stated. No one said tell folks "too bad help might be coming in ten years". I said we have to invest in our communities now (meaning help is coming now). In the same manner, we should not be lying to people and selling them on false hope now. That's one of the long standing problems that has led to a deep historical mistrust between communities, the police and city government. We need to be transparent and realistic, moreso than anything else.

With that said, what are some success stories out there of crime going away overnight? Perhaps these success stories should be highlighted locally to assist us in making Jax a safer community?
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

BridgeTroll

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2020, 06:44:06 PM »
Clearly you are a shining example of a success from "the hood"... I doubt you would consider yourself special in any respect... why were you and many others successful and others not and remain immersed in poverty and crime...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2020, 07:28:01 PM »
Clearly you are a shining example of a success from "the hood"... I doubt you would consider yourself special in any respect... why were you and many others successful and others not and remain immersed in poverty and crime...

I was lucky, so I'd consider myself special from that perspective. I'm the only one of my siblings to not be arrested as a teenager or early 20 something. Many of my cousins and childhood friends have not been as lucky as well. So I'd say that I'm an exception to the rule and that's a problem in and of itself. As late as my granddad's generation, Davis males only went to the 3rd grade and then they had to go work in the fields. I had an opportunity to leave and go to a HBCU 250 miles away from home and I took it. If I would have never left the neighborhood that I grew up in at the age of 19, I would not be where I am today.

For me going to a HBCU was really transformational in a manner that I got an experience that most young Black men don't get. Instead of being in a town where every Black male under the age of 30 was a potential suspect for most crimes and where the neighborhood role model was the drug dealer, I was in an environment where people of my color were of the majority and clustered together for a common cause....getting a college degree. A lot of traditional stereotypes were broken during my college years. For me, that has led to a life dedicated to giving back to helping individuals have access to opportunities that allow them to economically prosper against the odds they have been dealt with.

I also thank my parents for being open and honest about race and growing up as a Black male. I was given the talk at an early age about life not being fair and that just because of the color of my skin, I was going to have to accept that I would have to work as twice as hard as the average person to succeed. Anyway, I've been racially profiled and pulled over by the police, have had people follow me around the store to make sure I'm not going to steal something and have seen people clutch their belongings or lock their car doors as I pass on the sidewalk. It's degrading but that's the world we live in and it is, what it is. You can let it take you down, strive to find your place within it or reject the status quo and fight to change it.

Over the years, there have been multiple occasions where Black males who were my age or a few years younger growing up, have come up to me and told me that I was their role model because I made it out. I've had others ask me to speak and advise their kids on college and having a STEM degree because I'm one of the few real life Black male examples they know. On one hand, I'm honored but on the other hand, this is a problem and things should not be that way.

Overall, my own personal life experience further tilts me to view this from the perspective of believing that the environment that one lives in has a direct impact on their outcome in life. However, everyone can't leave and leaving doesn't resolve the neighborhood problem.  Case in point, I left my childhood neighborhood for good in 1996 and the only thing that has been built in it since I've left is a Family Dollars. There weren't jobs for the residents then and there aren't many there now. As time has gone on, the faces on the corner change but the problem has not. Some people die, some get put away in jail or prison for a long time, but there's always a younger generation coming up right behind them to take their place.

Jacksonville, like most cities with neighborhoods they've done everything to keep back, has a neighborhood problem built on the back of decades of systemic discrimination. The crime and drug situation is a direct result of an environment where generational poverty and lack of access to economic prosperity are significant contributors that lead young men to a certain outcome in life. IMO, we can't have a serious conversation on resolving crime without tackling the issues that create the environment of poverty and no hope.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 07:33:40 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2020, 07:37:01 PM »
If I still knew shorthand, I would transcribe, word for word, the female witness's statement for you.  This witness, who I believe was black, as she asked "when are we going to [stop all the violence and] take care of our own lives" may need someone to educate her on the proper use of BLM, if you listen to her questions.  She, not I, made the statements wondering why they were not doing something about all this violence.  My take is that perhaps Black LIVES Matter is not the proper title for a group more concerned with economic prosperity - again, semantics.  Sounds more like it should be Black Economic Opportunities Matter, to get right at the crux of it all.  I agree , Bridgetroll, that there is a lot of discussion that needs to take place.   Transparency is the key and dancing around the issues gingerly is ineffective.  I began this thread because it was a good opportunity to get this woman heard, and maybe get people to discuss it and see where it needs addressing.  And for one person who commented they did not want this to deteriorate all the way down to a black and white issue, it's quite obvious that by its very name, Black Lives Matter, it is a black and white issue. 

I still fail to see how BLM, what that group stands for, and debating if they should change their name, has anything to do with what took place in Arlington. Black lives do matter. The quicker we can treat, judge and enforce everyone from an equal footing, the quicker that name won't be needed.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

BridgeTroll

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2020, 07:38:56 PM »
Wow... very powerful.   Thank you.  I  sincerely appreciate your openness. It is what is needed when these conversations are being had.  I cannot put myself in your shoes and I doubt many of our contributors can...

How did you get the apparently rare opportunity to attend HBCU?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM »
I started off at community college hoping to major in architecture. After a semester I realized that I had been advised incorrectly by a college advisor and that I'd have to transfer from Polk to Hillsborough Community College to get an AA to then transfer to state university. At that point, there were three schools in the state offering a degree in architecture. Florida (I had no desire to go to the school or Gainesville), UM (couldn't afford it), and FAMU (I had a cousin and a few people I knew from back home there...and it was a HBCU which I liked). I was also familiar with FAMU and Tallahassee because my older brother was there for a year before dropping out and we used to go to the Florida Classic every year when it was in Tampa. It didn't make sense to commute to HCC (I lived 40 minutes east of their closest campus) in hopes of transferring to FAMU, so I applied and was accepted into FAMU and was able to transfer my Winn-Dixie job to a location near FSU to help afford the tuition.

You had to take architecture course all five or six years, depending in you were after a Bachelors or Masters. So I ended up wasting a year in community college but that experience made me appreciate the change in environment more and my older brother's failure there made me more dedicated to succeed, in order to keep a promise to my parents and not end up back home. Luckily for him, later on he was able to go back to school in South Florida and finally get a degree of his own.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 09:55:24 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2020, 04:08:53 PM »

Violence causes far more poverty than poverty causes violence.

thelakelander

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2020, 04:15:00 PM »
Hard to prove that since history proves the poverty came before the violence in Jax's most economically depressed neighborhoods.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Adam White

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Re: Witness Comments on Shooting of 7-Year Old at Football Game
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2020, 05:07:58 PM »

Violence causes far more poverty than poverty causes violence.

I'd love to see your sources.

“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”