Author Topic: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020  (Read 79453 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #870 on: January 19, 2021, 02:00:11 PM »
I don't disagree, but people (read: voters) have gotten so attached to it that it seems like it might as well be on the table. I've always wondered how serious people were about it though (by which I mean I've repeatedly asked people saying we should move the jail whether they'd be willing to spend half a billion in taxpayer money, likely through tax increases, to do so).

I haven't heard many people outside of Curry's circle and known local Republicans claim we need to spend hundreds of millions to move the jail to revitalize downtown. From what I can tell, the general public seems more interested in other areas of downtown, upgrading riverfront parks or totally ignoring downtown completely. More voters will align messages related to crime reduction, safety, economic development in NW Jax, etc.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #871 on: January 19, 2021, 02:26:33 PM »
I know social media isn't necessarily representative of every single voter in Jacksonville, but in my experience every time something has come up about Downtown's issues there are multiple comments about the jail, from people who generally at least don't appear to be in Curry's circles or known local Republicans. Although to your credit there are often also comments about the homeless, so maybe there are just a lot of skewed perspectives at hand.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #872 on: January 19, 2021, 02:39:15 PM »
I know social media isn't necessarily representative of every single voter in Jacksonville, but in my experience every time something has come up about Downtown's issues there are multiple comments about the jail, from people who generally at least don't appear to be in Curry's circles or known local Republicans. Although to your credit there are often also comments about the homeless, so maybe there are just a lot of skewed perspectives at hand.

I think moving the jail is one of those things people ask for until they see the price tag.  The average citizen here probably hasn't paid enough attention to know this has a $400 million plus price tag associated with it.  For that money, which is even more than Lot J, you can bet there will be plenty of people asking for other priorities to be funded first.  Even, after the Lot J fiasco, including the stadium :).

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #873 on: January 19, 2021, 02:47:16 PM »
Moving the jail is something that will take more than one mayoral term. The expense would also handicap the general budget and would come at the expense of public needs elsewhere.

If I were running, I'd just say I'm going to create a clean, walkable and highly active and vibrant downtown by the end of my term by programming and focusing on and maximizing our existing assets, buildings and businesses......and I'm not going to break the piggy bank doing it. It doesn't mean that we won't take advantage of economic development opportunities spread out around the the CBD. It would a part of a short term prioritization strategy, focusing on quick change by cleaning up and upgrading our Northbank public spaces, programming them, and targeting complimentary adaptive reuse and infill adjacent to existing businesses and projects already planned or underway. All around clustering, complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. If you don't see progress at the end of 4 years and still can't find cup of coffee on a Sunday morning outside of the hotels and 7_Eleven, vote me out of office.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #874 on: January 19, 2021, 03:03:00 PM »
Moving the jail is something that will take more than one mayoral term. The expense would also handicap the general budget and would come at the expense of public needs elsewhere.

If I were running, I'd just say I'm going to create a clean, walkable and highly active and vibrant downtown by the end of my term by programming and focusing on and maximizing our existing assets, buildings and businesses......and I'm not going to break the piggy bank doing it. It doesn't mean that we won't take advantage of economic development opportunities spread out around the the CBD. It would a part of a short term prioritization strategy, focusing on quick change by cleaning up and upgrading our Northbank public spaces, programming them, and targeting complimentary adaptive reuse and infill adjacent to existing businesses and projects already planned or underway. All around clustering, complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. If you don't see progress at the end of 4 years and still can't find cup of coffee on a Sunday morning outside of the hotels and 7_Eleven, vote me out of office.

Ennis, have you filed yet for your mayoral run :)?  I think many here would support you.

If not, maybe Carlucci, if he wins, hires you to run DIA or another urban planning agency for the City!  You can bring Marcus along with you too.  The Dream Team!

marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #875 on: January 19, 2021, 06:11:08 PM »
I know social media isn't necessarily representative of every single voter in Jacksonville, but in my experience every time something has come up about Downtown's issues there are multiple comments about the jail, from people who generally at least don't appear to be in Curry's circles or known local Republicans. Although to your credit there are often also comments about the homeless, so maybe there are just a lot of skewed perspectives at hand.

I think moving the jail is one of those things people ask for until they see the price tag.  The average citizen here probably hasn't paid enough attention to know this has a $400 million plus price tag associated with it.  For that money, which is even more than Lot J, you can bet there will be plenty of people asking for other priorities to be funded first.  Even, after the Lot J fiasco, including the stadium :).

There are at least a few people who are surprisingly willing to accept that price tag, although I doubt it's enough to justify doing so. At the end of the day, the ideal convention center solution for our market is likely adding the final piece (an exhibition hall) to the 3/4 of a convention center at the Hyatt. It's a shame that Curry's antics have at best put that on hold and at worst scuttled it entirely. And it's annoying that so much breath has to be spent on explaining the cost of the jail to everyone who insists that moving it is the first thing we should do.

Moving the jail is something that will take more than one mayoral term. The expense would also handicap the general budget and would come at the expense of public needs elsewhere.

If I were running, I'd just say I'm going to create a clean, walkable and highly active and vibrant downtown by the end of my term by programming and focusing on and maximizing our existing assets, buildings and businesses......and I'm not going to break the piggy bank doing it. It doesn't mean that we won't take advantage of economic development opportunities spread out around the the CBD. It would a part of a short term prioritization strategy, focusing on quick change by cleaning up and upgrading our Northbank public spaces, programming them, and targeting complimentary adaptive reuse and infill adjacent to existing businesses and projects already planned or underway. All around clustering, complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. If you don't see progress at the end of 4 years and still can't find cup of coffee on a Sunday morning outside of the hotels and 7_Eleven, vote me out of office.

Ennis, have you filed yet for your mayoral run :)?  I think many here would support you.

If not, maybe Carlucci, if he wins, hires you to run DIA or another urban planning agency for the City!  You can bring Marcus along with you too.  The Dream Team!

Haha, now there's an idea! I pointed out in another thread that this city has a remarkable track record of electing outsider candidates. There's no reason someone from the brain trust here couldn't be that candidate.

To put on the campaign hat for a moment, I'd recommend punching up the language a bit. Voters tend to get bored of long-winded explanations of the specific policies that would be implemented (not saying the policies shouldn't exist, just that you don't have to offer them up front). Think "We have the tools to rebuild downtown, and it's time to use them." or "We're going to make downtown a place you can walk around and enjoy yourself in, day or night." or perhaps "We can afford a clean, walkable, and vibrant downtown, what we need is leadership to build it."

That line about a cup of coffee on Sunday morning is terrific though.

Also, it's probably a given, but one probably can't run for mayor on just downtown. But being able to make a case for how the proposals for downtown are also applicable to other neighborhoods (assuming NIMBYs don't somehow derail that) probably puts one on track for success in that area.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #876 on: January 19, 2021, 08:32:36 PM »
Addressing the rest of the city is simple too. Addressing things like crime, taxes, parks, libraries, education, economic development, infrastructure, etc. will always appeal to the masses. You just need enough campaign money for people to be sold on you. The fact of not wasting $400 million on the jail will mean that money could go to other areas. The opponent of anyone talking about moving the jail should hit the jail candidate over the head again and again with that tax money sucker.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 08:34:10 PM by thelakelander »
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #877 on: January 20, 2021, 01:25:50 PM »
True, true. Money is always going to be a big part of the challenge, which is a shame, really.

I could see the jail candidate hitting back with "Well clearly you don't really care about downtown then! You want to see us fail!" Does that really make sense? Nope. Will it work on some people? Absolutely! I mean, look at some of the rhetoric around the Lot J deal from some people.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #878 on: January 20, 2021, 02:51:49 PM »
That would be a losing proposition. There are too many examples of vibrant downtowns with jails to pluck apart that position.
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landfall

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #879 on: January 22, 2021, 09:42:16 AM »
Hopefully we'll skip spending money on moving the jail. The riverfront jails in downtown Fort Lauderdale and Houston haven't stopped either of those downtowns from booming. Like the homeless, I think the jail is something that's been used as an excuse for bad leadership and decision making regarding downtown. We should be able to spend our money on things that will rapidly move the needle forward and address the jail when its lifetime is up.
My issue as such as isn't that the jail is Downtown, its where it is,  facing onto Bay St where much of Downtown's development opportunities lie.

Bay Street really could be thee Jacksonville Street in my eyes. Sadly there are too many stars that need to align for that and things move at a snails pace. Berkman and The Ford On Bay for starters. Then the Shipyards and the other vacant lots on Bay, I can think of a couple in particular directly opposite TFOB.

Maxwell House is probably in the same bracket as the jail. Its not a fit for the area in 2021 IMO. That doesn't mean to say the building couldn't be repurposed and repackaged as opposed to another wrecking ball moving in.

Bay St isn't going to become Bourbon or Beale (they're tacky anyway!) However I don't think there's any reason they couldn't match up to places like Mass Ave in Indianapopis or w25th in Cleveland. Previously neglected urban streets in middling cities that have experienced recent and ongoing regeneration and development.




thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #880 on: January 22, 2021, 11:39:04 AM »
I don't believe the future of downtown is the Shipyards, Metropolitan Park or the Stadium District. Those will become their own district, sort of like Brickell is a different place than Downtown Miami. Everything dreamed up and hoped for this area is still a good decade away from opening and when they do open, they'll still be pretty isolated for another decade or two. Since the actual cohesive development of anything east of Liberty is still 20-30 years away, it makes sense to me to place a higher priority on activating our low hanging fruit short term opportunities in the Northbank. Then 10-15 years down the road, see where we're at with a need to address what is currently a functioning jail.

In other words, if we had $400 million to spend in downtown, I'd rather see $100 million go to adding an exhibition hall at the Hyatt (resolving our convention center situation), $100 million for world class public spaces at the Landing site, JWJ Park, Courthouse plaza, and then $200 million to activate as many corridors and projects as possible between a compact area bounded by Broad, Beaver, Liberty and the riverfront than moving the jail and having another grass lawn after the $400 million is spent. IMO, if that were done, I believe we'd have a vibrant downtown regardless of what happens and when it happens in adjacent areas.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 11:40:45 AM by thelakelander »
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Pottsburg

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #881 on: January 23, 2021, 09:27:01 AM »
I don't believe the future of downtown is the Shipyards, Metropolitan Park or the Stadium District. Those will become their own district, sort of like Brickell is a different place than Downtown Miami. Everything dreamed up and hoped for this area is still a good decade away from opening and when they do open, they'll still be pretty isolated for another decade or two. Since the actual cohesive development of anything east of Liberty is still 20-30 years away, it makes sense to me to place a higher priority on activating our low hanging fruit short term opportunities in the Northbank. Then 10-15 years down the road, see where we're at with a need to address what is currently a functioning jail.

In other words, if we had $400 million to spend in downtown, I'd rather see $100 million go to adding an exhibition hall at the Hyatt (resolving our convention center situation), $100 million for world class public spaces at the Landing site, JWJ Park, Courthouse plaza, and then $200 million to activate as many corridors and projects as possible between a compact area bounded by Broad, Beaver, Liberty and the riverfront than moving the jail and having another grass lawn after the $400 million is spent. IMO, if that were done, I believe we'd have a vibrant downtown regardless of what happens and when it happens in adjacent areas.

If we followed this plan then I would say there is zero chance the Jags are still in Jax.  Also the stadium issue will come up in the next 5 years and he will expect a decision within 7. I’m not opposed to what you’re saying but if we are on a 20-30 year plan, then I pray for this city.  I think a lot of people of this forum couldn’t care less about the Jags, this scares me.
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thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #882 on: January 23, 2021, 03:21:56 PM »
If we followed this plan then I would say there is zero chance the Jags are still in Jax.

I disagree unless Lamping was lying when he stated that one of the three things they needed to be viable in Jax long term was a vibrant downtown. You can't ignore your downtown and expect it to someone get vibrant.

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Also the stadium issue will come up in the next 5 years and he will expect a decision within 7.

Neither the Jags stadium issue or having a vibrant downtown have anything to do with spending $400 million to relocate the jail. Actually, by not spending $400 million on relocating the jail, we would have that same $400 million to possible put toward the stadium issue and having a vibrant downtown. So I'd argue that the stadium issue is yet another reason why tax money should not be used to relocate the jail before addressing more pressing issues.

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I’m not opposed to what you’re saying but if we are on a 20-30 year plan, then I pray for this city.

Get on your knees and start praying. I'm just being a realist. Even if Lot J would have passed the other week, the earliest it was going to be fully built out was seven to ten years from now. A mile of empty waterfront isn't getting built out in five years or less. Heck, we're already +20 years in with the Shipyards and have nothing much to show for it.

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I think a lot of people of this forum couldn’t care less about the Jags, this scares me.

I think a lot of people do care about the Jags. Some on the forum here happen to be big fans and season ticket holders. However, the jail doesn't have anything to do with them being here long term. By the same token, the future of downtown isn't dependent on the shipyards or the stadium district. They should almost be treated as independent issues but addressed in a manner to where they complement each other.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 03:23:47 PM by thelakelander »
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Pottsburg

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #883 on: January 24, 2021, 09:09:24 AM »
If we followed this plan then I would say there is zero chance the Jags are still in Jax.

I disagree unless Lamping was lying when he stated that one of the three things they needed to be viable in Jax long term was a vibrant downtown. You can't ignore your downtown and expect it to someone get vibrant.

I personally think Lamping interpretation of downtown is different from yours.  He would consider lot J downtown, when in fact most people break up the little areas downtown.  So when he says downtown, he means the shipyards and lot J imo.  I just think there is a lot of people trying to call a bluff on if he would say screw it and move the team.

If im Khan i buy up a huge parcel of land in St Johns county and create my own little Jerrys world.  Look how successful the battery has become in Cobb county. 
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thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #884 on: January 24, 2021, 10:22:37 AM »
Lamping and the Jags should not be in control of the future of a nearly 200 year old downtown. Those are two different animals and the downtown one being something they have no professional or political experience at dealing with. Going that route will not only end up with them leaving, but taxpayers be milked for billions and left with a failure of a sports district and actual downtown. The best way is to be able to help them with their needs, while also creating a more livable downtown simultaneously. Also, creating more activity in the sports district should be pursued as well, so I'm not saying this is an either/or situation. I'm just being a realist in saying that spending $400 million to relocate the jail doesn't help either downtown or the Jags. I'm also saying that no matter what they do, it will take well more than a decade to complete.  That has less to do with Jax and more to do with the time it takes to develop that much urban property from paper napkin concept to Pottsburg being able to walk into a completed Live! and order an overpriced beer.

Also, Khan would move the team to St. Louis, San Antonio or a host of other cities that are already larger than the Jax MSA before he'd consider moving it to a small place with no corporate base like St. Johns County. The Downtown of today is more active than St. Johns County and there's already a stadium in place. Cobb isn't remotely comparable to anything in NE Florida.  It nearly has as much people by itself as Duval and the Atlanta MSA is five times our size.
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