Author Topic: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020  (Read 79458 times)

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11160
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #855 on: January 17, 2021, 07:05:05 PM »
I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

Distance from Baltimore (Ravens) to D.C. (Washington Football Team) is 32 miles. Distance from Orlando to Tampa is 80-ish miles. If NFL owners can make more money with a team in Orlando rather than Jax, they won’t hesitate. Just ask San Diego, St. Louis, and Oakland.

combined metro size of Bal-Wash is 9+ million. Combined size of Tam-Orl (including Polk County in between) is roughly 6.5 million

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11160
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #856 on: January 17, 2021, 07:07:24 PM »
Oh.....and Orlando has refused to fund a stadium for their bowl games while the Citrus Bowl is falling in on itself.

FYI - the stadium was mostly rebuilt a few years ago - and there are plans to do even more to it in the near future.

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #857 on: January 17, 2021, 07:53:52 PM »
At this point the city has a massive amount of riverfront property and all the options and plans for any of it don't seem to be part of an overall plan at all, but conceived as singular siloed projects. Perhaps now is the time to truly master plan the entire Northbank/Southbank riverfront.

Waterfront vacant parcels currently: Landing, City Hall Annex, Old Courthouse, Shipyards, The District. SUPPOSEDLY the Berkman2 site will be vacant as well in the near future. PLUS, Metro Park may be moved and is essentially open space now anyway.

MOSH may move from the Southbank to the Northbank and River City Brewing Company is on board for redevelopment.   

Hire a world class planner like Sassaki to evaluate the entirety of DT and decide the highest and best use for all of those parcels. Include all city owned property around the stadium and the jail too.

All good (and alluring) points, although I imagine that becomes much more difficult if this is true:

The DIA has kind of thrown their hands in the air for now, at least until Curry is out.

Not to mention that Boyer seems to have already started a process with the Landing alone, and they might not want to abandon that in favor of a riverfront master plan.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #858 on: January 17, 2021, 08:37:24 PM »
Quote
With Lot J, they played the Curry hard ball game of take it or leave it, and it got left. I have no doubt that if any of Lot J is feasible and gives them a chance to make money, those uses will resurface. Keep in mind, resurfacing could simply mean these similar uses end up in the plan for Metropolitan Park.

I hope you're right, particularly with the Live! component. The reason I'm not sure is because Cordish and the Jags have both insisted that Cordish has no interest in partnering with the franchise on anything below Bay Street. I don't think they want to be involved on the riverfront. Which sucks because the two most exciting, city-beneficial elements of the Lot J proposal were the Live! venue and the Live by Loews hotel. The city could have REALLY benefited from having those dining and entertaining options down by the stadium (particularly in partnership with a successful operator who was contractually committed to maintaining 75%+ occupancy). And having a nice hotel (without the Four Seasons ADR) would have been great for the sports complex as well.

Would really suck to see the Lot J project die entirely.

Was a great project, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

Part of me wonders if the optics and support would have been better had the Jags had eliminated the $53 million benefit from the breadbox loan, but asked the city to pay for all of the Live! Venue.

So instead of:
- City and Cordish each pay $50 million for Live! City owns, Cordish operates
- City pays $73 million infrastructure
- City pays $53 million grant to help with residential and hotel; developer pays rest

The ask is:
- City funds the $100 million Live! venue; Cordish operates, pays operating costs; guarantees occupancy
- City pays $73 million infrastructure
- Developer pays 100% of costs for residential and hotel

We're still paying more than we should, but I wonder how much better the optics would have been had we positioned the public ask as being solely for the components that would be publicly owned (Live!, infrastructure) and positioned the developer contribution as 100% of the privately owned components (hotel, residential, office, etc.).

It seems to me like this is based on the assumption that those costs remain accurate. If all of Lot J is really only a $250 million project, then we're really getting screwed having to pay ~70% of that. On top of that, the Jags appear to have zero interest in still working on Lot J, and from the sound of things zero interest in Cordish, either.

From the attitude the Jags are putting off, it's really up to the city (presumably DIA) to pick up the pieces, go back to Cordish, and offer a new, more grounded deal. At which point, as Ennis has said, it might make more sense to go move it to a different lot without the remediation costs. I'd also support spending the $7 million Cordish quoted on stormwater management for the pond. And as I said before, putting together a temporary space on Lot J for the "cocktail party" stuff since the Landing is now gone and while the deal is made for a Live! Arena and hotel.

Here's a very crude concept of what I'm thinking about:

So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32009
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #859 on: January 17, 2021, 09:28:27 PM »
Oh.....and Orlando has refused to fund a stadium for their bowl games while the Citrus Bowl is falling in on itself.

FYI - the stadium was mostly rebuilt a few years ago - and there are plans to do even more to it in the near future.

That stadium blows. I went for a Florida Classic game a year or two ago. Even with the renovation a few years back, it's nowhere near the level of a modern NFL facility. If the Jags think our Sports and Entertainment District sucks, wait to they get a wind of OBT.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32009
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #860 on: January 17, 2021, 09:34:14 PM »
Not to mention that Boyer seems to have already started a process with the Landing alone, and they might not want to abandon that in favor of a riverfront master plan.

Boyer's process with the Landing is Curry's paper napkin sketch from a few years back:



Nevertheless, regardless of what they do with the Landing site, like the Hyatt or performing arts center, it can be included into a riverfront master plan. The riverwalks could both use a lot more activity in the form of restaurants, retail, cultural spaces, museums, etc. as opposed to just grass lawns. So the redevelopment of the Landing site (whenever it happens) should be a plus compared to what's there today.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #861 on: January 17, 2021, 10:05:29 PM »
^ Yes, I know it is, I'm just saying they might not want to deviate from that plan in favor of a riverfront master plan. (Or perhaps Curry won't "allow" them to.)

And yeah, I guess. Hopefully it will at least be better.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32009
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #862 on: January 17, 2021, 11:13:46 PM »
The master plan (if they did one) would just incorporate potential Landing plans like it would existing buildings like the Hyatt, Berkman or the Peninsula. It shouldn't be viewed as a detriment to a master planning or visioning process.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

MusicMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #863 on: January 18, 2021, 10:27:53 AM »
I just watched "Hidden Figures".....from simple orbit to Moon landing in 10 years.

Surely Jax can get their act together in the next 10 years?

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 857
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #864 on: January 18, 2021, 11:50:30 AM »
I just watched "Hidden Figures".....from simple orbit to Moon landing in 10 years.

Surely Jax can get their act together in the next 10 years?

A great movie!  Ego's ended up being second fiddle to doing the right thing.  Other differences:  NASA had visionary, progressive, focused, open minded, collaborative and proactive leadership.

Jacksonville leadership... not so much of even one of those traits.

It took thousands working as a "team" to get us to the moon.  Curry couldn't get a team together to cross a street without breaking down.  Ironic, given his love of "team" sports.

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #865 on: January 18, 2021, 12:14:58 PM »
Seeing as the attempt to repeat that effort will take at least 15 years from the beginning of the rocket's development, and nearly 20 years since the beginning of the capsule's development, it's hard to say we still have that attitude.

But let's think for a moment. Ten years from now will be 2031. (assuming we haven't changed it yet, that will also be an election year.)

Curry remaining in office (unless he is recalled) will lose us at least two years or so. Assuming someone of his ilk isn't elected to replace him, and that any successor receives a Council prepared for teamwork, there's a lot of effort that would have to be expended, efficiently, for this city to get its act together within the remaining eight years. We're already missing out on perhaps the best chance to get federal funding poured into the city for infrastructure (unless Democrats have the political capital to continue after the 2022 midterms), and state support will be hard to come by (unless Democrats win at least the Governorship in 2022). Taxpayers will have to be willing to put up at least some portion of funds for big projects like moving the jail or major transit reform, and City Hall must have a plan to gain that will. There are big potential opportunities in the long run, like Brightline at the terminal downtown, that we can't really afford to miss.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32009
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #866 on: January 18, 2021, 06:08:17 PM »
Hopefully we'll skip spending money on moving the jail. The riverfront jails in downtown Fort Lauderdale and Houston haven't stopped either of those downtowns from booming. Like the homeless, I think the jail is something that's been used as an excuse for bad leadership and decision making regarding downtown. We should be able to spend our money on things that will rapidly move the needle forward and address the jail when its lifetime is up.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #867 on: January 18, 2021, 08:45:42 PM »
I don't disagree, but people (read: voters) have gotten so attached to it that it seems like it might as well be on the table. I've always wondered how serious people were about it though (by which I mean I've repeatedly asked people saying we should move the jail whether they'd be willing to spend half a billion in taxpayer money, likely through tax increases, to do so).
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Florida Power And Light

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #868 on: January 18, 2021, 08:57:04 PM »
“ Cocktail Party”

Empty Space

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #869 on: January 19, 2021, 12:58:27 PM »
You could make it cute enough while we're all waiting on the Live! arena. Benches, whatever temporary shade we can get in there, room for food trucks to pull in.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey