Author Topic: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020  (Read 65027 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #510 on: December 02, 2020, 01:58:55 PM »
Yeah, marcuscnelson is right on. They should go ahead and clean the property up. There's more than enough time to review the details of the development deal itself when that part is removed from the equation.
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Ken_FSU

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #511 on: December 02, 2020, 02:09:28 PM »
Of COURSE the most important DIA meeting in city history starts with Noone rambling about waterways  ;D

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #512 on: December 02, 2020, 04:02:48 PM »
It was said that Lot J is estimated to attract an additional 2 to 3 million visitors to the sports district annually. To put that number in context with something that people can better understand locally, the 2009 DVI State of Downtown report estimated that the Landing attracted 4 to 4.5 million visitors annually between 2005 and 2009.

See page 14 in the link: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-state-of-downtown-2009-progress-report
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #513 on: December 02, 2020, 09:11:29 PM »
Very good thread from Nate Monroe and Matt Flowers about something that's been mentioned here before, the near certainty that Curry expected the JEA sale to be a slush fund for the Jaguars, the jail, and a convention center, among whatever projects his buddies wanted.

Agree and made this point hundreds of posts back somewhere.  Curry should never commit a crime as he would leave enough clues that even Barney Fife would nail him.

Tonight, Nate Monroe dropped one of his best columns ever (that's saying a lot since so many are so good) regarding the immorality and  irresponsibility that the City Council will be engaging in if they approve this project as is.  Every word has the sharpness of a razor blade.  Check it out:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2020/12/02/city-councils-lot-j-dilemma/3798022001/

I will say it again:  Khan should be big enough to withdraw his request and offer to resubmit it under a new and appropriately transparent process.  The ill will created, if he gets his way, will be on par with feelings toward JEA's Zahn (LOL that the names rhyme!).  He will win the battle but lose the war.

Ken_FSU

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #514 on: December 02, 2020, 11:23:33 PM »
^Fantastic piece that will go down in the history books if Lot J turns into an anchor around the city's neck.

Just some killer commentary on this thing from all perspectives in the last week from Monroe, Mark Woods, and even Gene Frenette.

Sincerely hope that everyone who appreciates what the Times-Union has done here in the last year is paying attention to the newsroom cuts and voting with their wallets to support quality local journalism.

You can usually tell how close to home it hits by counting how many times the coverage comes up during these City Council and DIA meetings.

On today's meeting, it's hilarious to me that the end result of kicking this thing to the DIA is a deal coming back to Council that's actually WORSE for the city than the deal that was on the table two weeks ago.

The project has quietly shrunken by 15% across almost all components, while the city's contribution has remained exactly the same.

Was fully expecting some small concessions from the Jags in terms of infrastructure or a slight reduction in the breadbox loan, but they held their ground on the major line items, and Mark Lamping repeated his "we're not starting over" bit again for the back row.

A couple things were revealed:

1) The office space will, per Lamping, be primarily occupied by the Jags or their affiliates (Iguana was mentioned, and I've heard that Bold Events will likely expand into the new space as well). The DIA was concerned that the office could cannibalize other office tenants from elsewhere downtown, but seemed entirely unconcerned that taxpayers would be paying half to build out new office space for the folks who were already being given $200 million+ in cash.

2) As Ennis noted above, the developer claims that Lot J will drive up to 3 million additional visitor to the sports complex each year. For context, that's more people than Wrigley Field drew in 2019, and about 75% of Sea World's annual attendance. Thank God for the clown cars, as Lot J is about 8,000 daily parking spots too light to handle that type of a surge. By my math, if these numbers are correct, visitors cannot expect a roughly 19 hour wait to be seated at one of the restaurants.

The whole thing felt like a big charade where the DIA was clearly being forced into something against their will, essentially being asked to greenlight a project without the necessary information to make such a decision. They openly admitted that they had no fucking clue whether the breadbox loan was a good idea or a bad idea.

The giant elephant in the room was the revisions the DIA made mid-day yesterday to soften their recommendations.

Good-faith suggestions from people like Oliver Bakarat were almost unanimously shut down.

Lamping was cranky, red-faced, and more smug than usual.

The DIA at one point was in a loop where they were actively voting to remove their own recommendations.

Drink every time someone gives a new ROI calculation for the project. Drink every time Mark Lamping references the "magic of compounding interest." Drink every time someone says the world "transformational." Drink every time 50 units are lopped off the residential component. Drink every time someone is dismissed from the podium, returns to their seat, and is immediately called back to the podium. Drink every time Matt Carlucci gets caught on an open mic discussing his Thankgiving turkey.

And the whole time, you've got poor Zed Smith from Cordish - clearly a brilliant guy, and for my money, one of the most professional, well-spoken, rational human beings of these proceedings over the last few weeks - sitting there with a polite smile on his face but this look in his eyes like "what have I gotten myself into." But he just keeps smiling, and answering questions about the Eastside, and minority-business involvement, while all around him, numerous local government bodies are infighting, trying to figure out their own rules of operation, and repeatedly referencing him as "Jed."

I'm kinda ready for this thing to be over one way or the other.

And I still think the vote falls somewhere between 14-5 and 16-3.

Whole thing has really demonstrated how badly we need to hit the reset button as a city though.

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #515 on: December 02, 2020, 11:54:18 PM »
Pure Mayberry....and we have the audacity to wonder how things have gotten to where they're at with downtown. 100% self sabotage. We can't get out of our own way consistently enough to let the market handle things appropriately.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #516 on: December 03, 2020, 12:11:10 AM »
^ Great take, Ken. I also expect it to pass in the end, but those voting in favor shouldn't win reelection for it. Their job was to defend the citizens who voted for them, and they failed. The fact that it happened amongst a sea of lies and a mysterious rush to wrap things up is an even greater insult.

As for Curry, there's always this… assuming someone (or a group of someones) is ready to capitalize on the anger and can afford to verify signatures. I think you could find ~35k people mad enough about this to sign something. You could call his actions any combination of misfeasance, neglect of duty, or incompetence.

The whole thing felt like a big charade where the DIA was clearly being forced into something against their will, essentially being asked to greenlight a project without the necessary information to make such a decision. They openly admitted that they had no fucking clue whether the breadbox loan was a good idea or a bad idea.

The giant elephant in the room was the revisions the DIA made mid-day yesterday to soften their recommendations.

Good-faith suggestions from people like Oliver Bakarat were almost unanimously shut down.

Lamping was cranky, red-faced, and more smug than usual.

The DIA at one point was in a loop where they were actively voting to remove their own recommendations.

Drink every time someone gives a new ROI calculation for the project. Drink every time Mark Lamping references the "magic of compounding interest." Drink every time someone says the world "transformational." Drink every time 50 units are lopped off the residential component. Drink every time someone is dismissed from the podium, returns to their seat, and is immediately called back to the podium. Drink every time Matt Carlucci gets caught on an open mic discussing his Thankgiving turkey.

I suppose that's what we get for approving the Cumber bill and rushing a review instead of Carlucci's bill to actually demand negotiations from people who might [gasp] defend the interests of taxpayers.

Quote
And the whole time, you've got poor Zed Smith from Cordish - clearly a brilliant guy, and for my money, one of the most professional, well-spoken, rational human beings of these proceedings over the last few weeks - sitting there with a polite smile on his face but this look in his eyes like "what have I gotten myself into." But he just keeps smiling, and answering questions about the Eastside, and minority-business involvement, while all around him, numerous local government bodies are infighting, trying to figure out their own rules of operation, and repeatedly referencing him as "Jed."

It really is one of the most unfortunate parts of this project. I don't think anyone has any real qualms about Cordish, and they seem to be trying their best. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place watching Curry and the Jaguars rush this mess, while Council squabbles and citizens are enraged by how hundreds of millions seemingly appeared out of thin air for this project. In an alternate reality, perhaps whoever replaced Curry last year would have offered the Landing to Cordish for adaptive reuse or something, while actual professionals talk a Lot J+Stadium+Shipyards deal.

At the end of the day, I imagine Lot J might be successful, but we'll have overspent on a project built on lies that it seems might ultimately harm the rest of downtown, before overspending even more on stadium renovations. Generations of Jaxsons will be saddled with the debt, and even though it might keep the team here, people will look back and ask "we spent nearly a billion dollars, why does Downtown still suck?"
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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vicupstate

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #518 on: December 03, 2020, 08:26:52 AM »
Quote
Whole thing has really demonstrated how badly we need to hit the reset button as a city though.

Indeed. If you want to change this city you are going to have to change its leaders. That will be a difficult task that would need to start NOW. Find good people that can't be bought and run get them to run for city council and mayor. Raise money for their campaigns and get other respected leaders in the community to endorse them. Have them run as a team with a written plan for the changes they want to make and the principles that will guide them if elected (transparency, openness, etc.).

Jacksonville is one of the most poorly run cities in the country and that won't change all by itself.       
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #519 on: December 03, 2020, 10:22:20 AM »
UNF put out a poll today. It's… not looking especially good.

Lot J is getting unpopular. Curry's approval ratings are sinking. Even stadium renovations are apparently unpopular, which I guess isn't that surprising with how negotiations have gone. Nearly half are unhappy with previous stadium upgrades. People are mixed on the importance of an NFL team.

People do seem to like my idea, putting the Jags before a referendum. But all in all, this isn't going well.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #520 on: December 03, 2020, 10:30:49 AM »
Quote
Whole thing has really demonstrated how badly we need to hit the reset button as a city though.

Indeed. If you want to change this city you are going to have to change its leaders. That will be a difficult task that would need to start NOW. Find good people that can't be bought and run get them to run for city council and mayor. Raise money for their campaigns and get other respected leaders in the community to endorse them. Have them run as a team with a written plan for the changes they want to make and the principles that will guide them if elected (transparency, openness, etc.).

Jacksonville is one of the most poorly run cities in the country and that won't change all by itself.     

I've thought a lot about that, the challenge of recruiting candidates willing to put themselves out in front of everyone, especially for a job that involves taking on big reforms, while maintaining high-minded principles. Money is really the biggest obstacle, because there's no such thing as altruism in campaign finance. You either need a lot of small donors or a few big donors, and it's hard to find a lot of small donors during an economic downturn (stock market aside). If you sit down with big donors like Rummell or Peyton, you're getting the money because they expect certain results politically.

These are partisan races, so you either have to be in Lenny Curry's party and try to reform things from the inside (doubt) or you're in the other party, which at the state level is a complete disaster and requires a truly immense effort to get enough voters out of bed for an election in March (and possibly also May). It's no small matter.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #521 on: December 03, 2020, 10:59:40 AM »
The city auditor is back, with more bad news. But it gets even better.

Apparently, by the time you account for having to borrow, and the resulting interest, we're not paying ~$240 million.

We're paying $390 million.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Ken_FSU

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #522 on: December 03, 2020, 11:19:57 AM »
^The Magic of Compounding Interest®

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #523 on: December 03, 2020, 11:38:59 AM »
The council's Lot J special meeting is now taking place. Council members are bickering and insulting each other again:

https://www.news4jax.com/video/news/local/2020/12/03/watch-live-special-jacksonville-city-council-meeting-discussing-lot-j-funding/

Seems that some want to go ahead and vote and not discuss the DIA's recommendations. Others want to discuss more.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #524 on: December 03, 2020, 12:09:22 PM »
Garrett Dennis asked Mark Lamping point-blank whether the Jaguars would leave if Lot J isn't approved this month, and Lamping avoided the question.

However, he did repeat that the full assessment for the stadium ask won't be ready until 2023. Which to me introduces the possibility that they didn't want those negotiations to happen under Curry.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey