Author Topic: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020  (Read 65025 times)

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 766
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #465 on: November 24, 2020, 11:29:55 PM »
Quote
What I really like about the idea of a referendum is that it gives the city to demonstrate how much they value or don't value having the Jaguars in town. In the scenario that Shad Khan or the owners decide that to divest from the Jax market, that would be a PR blow to the city. At least if the public votes against the deal and the Jags leave, we are the ones really driving the decision which would be less of a PR hit, especially if we choose to make sizable investments into our city's quality of life.

This would be deja vu of another similar crossroads the City faced:  The reopening of Cecil Field.  The Base Closing Commission closed Cecil.  (Locals had made the right case to keep it open but were ignored due to powerful politics by Virginia's reps protecting Oceana).  Several years later the BCC admitted the error of their ways and backtracked.  For the first and only time ever, the BCC voted to reopen Cecil.

One problem: BCC wanted Duval taxpayers to pay the estimated $1 billion to reopen the base that some claimed would bring 12,000 jobs back to Jax.  Like Lot J, many balked at the prospect of local taxpayers taking on such a burden while still wanting to welcome the Navy back with all those "instant" jobs.  In fairness, the Feds closed the base and the Feds should have paid to reopen it.  Given the consternation of making a no-win decision, Peyton and the Council put the decision to the voters in a referendum.  The voters overwhelmingly said "thanks" but "no thanks" (their pocketbooks outweighed loving the Navy  8) ) and the City moved on without the base reopening.  Peyton and the Council were off the hook and avoided being caught in a crossfire they couldn't win.

Lot J appears to mirror this very situation:  a no-win decision by elected officials.  I will say there is risk in a referendum as the voters may not fully follow the complexities of this deal.  Either side could lose big time but the politicos would be off the hook with their constituents.

 A cop-out by elected officials not doing their job well?  Yeah.  Same reason voters are taking charge of the State constitution with amendments.  Legislature doesn't do its job either.  Must be something in Florida's drinking water.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31827
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #466 on: November 24, 2020, 11:44:03 PM »
I wish Lamping would talk about how Khan, Cordish and the Mayor see Lot J benefiting the CBD rather than competing or detracting from it because I don't see it.

I think it will only detract if COJ and the DIA take the position of that we need Lot J first for the CBD to be worth equal public investment. Approve Lot J today and it is still six or seven years away from the first components of phase 1 being completed. There's a lot that can be up and running in the CBD by 2027 that will help make Lot J more viable if COJ abruptly throws $233 million in public assistance its way.

Quote
If this thing goes through, Cordish deserves the credit as they seem to be the most credible party here given their track record elsewhere.  Of course, the same could have been said of Rouse... until they met Jacksonville.

Cordish is a solid company and Rouse was one. Rouse was a major contributor in getting people back into the central cities back in the late 70s and 80s. The festival marketplaces that make it to fifty years of age will definitely be designated as National Register historic sites. The Cordish developments are attractive and contribute to the vibrant scenes of the cities they are located in. Alone, they aren't game changers because they are pretty cookie cutter. However, when combined with complementing uses, they help add life into the surrounding community. Now Jacksonville's city hall and it's track record is another animal altogether. Downtown Jax is what it is today, not because of the market, but 100% because of city hall over the last few mayoral administrations.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31827
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #467 on: November 24, 2020, 11:50:55 PM »
Quote
What I really like about the idea of a referendum is that it gives the city to demonstrate how much they value or don't value having the Jaguars in town. In the scenario that Shad Khan or the owners decide that to divest from the Jax market, that would be a PR blow to the city. At least if the public votes against the deal and the Jags leave, we are the ones really driving the decision which would be less of a PR hit, especially if we choose to make sizable investments into our city's quality of life.

This would be deja vu of another similar crossroads the City faced:  The reopening of Cecil Field.  The Base Closing Commission closed Cecil.  (Locals had made the right case to keep it open but were ignored due to powerful politics by Virginia's reps protecting Oceana).  Several years later the BCC admitted the error of their ways and backtracked.  For the first and only time ever, the BCC voted to reopen Cecil.

One problem: BCC wanted Duval taxpayers to pay the estimated $1 billion to reopen the base that some claimed would bring 12,000 jobs back to Jax.  Like Lot J, many balked at the prospect of local taxpayers taking on such a burden while still wanting to welcome the Navy back with all those "instant" jobs.  In fairness, the Feds closed the base and the Feds should have paid to reopen it.  Given the consternation of making a no-win decision, Peyton and the Council put the decision to the voters in a referendum.  The voters overwhelmingly said "thanks" but "no thanks" (their pocketbooks outweighed loving the Navy  8) ) and the City moved on without the base reopening.  Peyton and the Council were off the hook and avoided being caught in a crossfire they couldn't win.

Lot J appears to mirror this very situation:  a no-win decision by elected officials.  I will say there is risk in a referendum as the voters may not fully follow the complexities of this deal.  Either side could lose big time but the politicos would be off the hook with their constituents.

 A cop-out by elected officials not doing their job well?  Yeah.  Same reason voters are taking charge of the State constitution with amendments.  Legislature doesn't do its job either.  Must be something in Florida's drinking water.

Speaking of the Cecil referendum, it is pretty striking how that played out racially: https://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/08027.pdf
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #468 on: November 25, 2020, 12:12:37 AM »
Live! is definitely risky because if we're calling the more centralized and readily accessible Landing a failure with no future other than demolition, Landing 2.0 a mile east will have more question marks of long term viability. Same goes for 40,000 square feet of Class A office space if it is speculative. Without a tenant already in hand, adding a significant amount of multi-level Class A office space in the urban core could be pretty risky in the post Covid landscape.

Quick note on the office space specifically.

Something I had heard through the grapevine and posted about maybe a year ago was seemingly confirmed during the meeting today.

Cordish looks to be targeting coworking space for Lot J, rather than a traditional office tenant.

Would be modeled after something like KC Spark or Spark Baltimore (dramatic sizzle reels below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu4pfxHKYg0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTRSpRtZfmA

With work from home becoming permanent for so many people and so many businesses downsizing office space, I don't hate the idea.


thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31827
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #469 on: November 25, 2020, 12:19:28 AM »
Interesting! 40,000 square feet of co-working space?! That's pretty large considering some of the existing co-working spaces in the area and some of the proposed projects associated nearby like Dennis + Ives. Since DT Jax has a lot more office space than needed, I can also see companies downsizing within buildings all over the place as their leases come up for renewal. I'm not too familiar with the office markets in KC and Baltimore other than they appeared to be a bit healthier when I visited both a couple of years ago. However, I have no data to back that claim. Would this be an example of where public funding is being used on a project that will compete head to head for tenants with private office building owners that aren't getting public assistance? That's another sticky area with some of these newer projects being proposed.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 12:21:16 AM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ken_FSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #470 on: November 25, 2020, 12:32:54 AM »
Interesting! 40,000 square feet of co-working space?! That's pretty large considering some of the existing co-working spaces in the area and some of the proposed projects associated nearby like Dennis + Ives.

Definitely on the large side, even for Cordish.

Their largest coworking space is currently 30,000 square feet in Baltimore.

I still wouldn't discount Jags business or marketing operations conveniently finding their way into some of the office space either, particularly because a) they're already in cramped quarters at the stadium and b) they could potentially be displaced by construction at the stadium based on how long remediation takes and how negotiations go with everything else.

Quote
Would this be an example of where public funding is being used on a project that will compete head to head for tenants with private office building owners that aren't getting public assistance? That's another sticky area with some of these newer projects being proposed.

100%. Under the development agreement, the office space is considered a part of the "Live! Arena component," so the city would bankroll half of the cost of building the office space and ultimately own it as well (though Cordish would manage it). This is one of the areas of the development agreement that I don't think City Council has fully picked up on. There are some other weird ownership clauses in there as well that have largely flown under the radar (like the giant LED screen and sound system for Live! being considered a 100% city-funded "infrastructure" aspect of the project, rather than being split as a 50/50 line item in the Live! bucket with Cordish).

Similarly, during the meeting, the idea of using the bed tax to fund the $12.5 million completion grant for the hotel was also brought up. Could you imagine being a hotelier and being asked to collect a 6% bed tax from your guests that you would then hand over to the city to subsidize your competition?

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1981
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (DAMMIT!)
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICES
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #471 on: November 25, 2020, 06:01:19 PM »
Co-working space; old school I am...so...I don't like it.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal, or, access my Social Service Agency Facebook page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: https://www.facebook.com/FRESHSTARTSOCIALSERVICEAGENCY/; thank you!!!

jaxjags

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #472 on: November 25, 2020, 07:03:36 PM »
I still wouldn't discount Jags business or marketing operations conveniently finding their way into some of the office space either, particularly because a) they're already in cramped quarters at the stadium and b) they could potentially be displaced by construction at the stadium based on how long remediation takes and how negotiations go with everything else.

I think this may be "corporate sports business offices" for all of Shads sports businesses. This would be Jags, Fulham and AEW. I think Shad wants a nice office overlooking the stadium for when he is in town to do business. Maybe this, plus I agree during a stadium rebuild the Jags and Gator Bowl will need temporary offices.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31827
    • Modern Cities
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #473 on: November 25, 2020, 07:30:35 PM »
I'd prefer the Jags occupy the office as opposed to it stealing a company from an existing privately owned space.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

JBTripper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #474 on: November 27, 2020, 11:51:18 AM »
Not only is Jacksonville a "small market", but when compared with many other small NFL markets, our regional appeal is very small. New Orleans for instance have fans all over the Gulf South. Buffalo have fans all over Western New York and Southern Ontario. The Chiefs have fans all over the Plains. The Raiders are a West Coast brand and the Packers and Colts have a full state to themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if the Jags are not even the most popular team in Gainesville or Daytona.

The most popular team between Gainesville and Daytona is in Gainesville LOL.

The Jags would be a lot more popular if they weren't a dumpster fire year after year.

This is another sticking point with many Jags fans, when the organization complains about "market challenges." The most popular team in Gainesville and Daytona is in Gainesville, because that team puts a compelling product on the field more often than once every 20 years. The Raiders, Packers, Bills, Colts and Chiefs OWN their entire regions because they are a winning brands that people want to associate with (or were at some point at at least appear to be striving to that at some point in the future again).

It's not like the Jaguars can't make headway in Brunswick because it's an established Falcons hotbed. Nobody north of Ocala, south of Macon or east of Pensacola has a "home" NFL team. There's no reason a blue-collar team in a blue-collar town can't expand their market and win over fans in these places. Except by losing, consistently, more than any other team in all of professional sports.

So from a fan and Jacksonville taxpayer perspective, it looks like the Jaguars are trying absolutely everything EXCEPT winning at football to be "viable" - big scoreboards, fancy club seating, swimming pools, pet daycare, real estate development, concert series, professional wrestling, playing home games overseas... When they could just try drafting better, or at least signing their good draft picks to a second contract, or even firing the guys responsible for failures in the draft.

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #475 on: November 27, 2020, 11:37:05 PM »
So, as has been said quite a few times: the Jaguars would have waaaaaay fewer problems if they weren't always losing, all the damn time.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

JaxAvondale

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 621
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #476 on: November 28, 2020, 12:34:13 AM »
I still wouldn't discount Jags business or marketing operations conveniently finding their way into some of the office space either, particularly because a) they're already in cramped quarters at the stadium and b) they could potentially be displaced by construction at the stadium based on how long remediation takes and how negotiations go with everything else.

I think this may be "corporate sports business offices" for all of Shads sports businesses. This would be Jags, Fulham and AEW. I think Shad wants a nice office overlooking the stadium for when he is in town to do business. Maybe this, plus I agree during a stadium rebuild the Jags and Gator Bowl will need temporary offices.

That is definitely a possibility. Also, you could have the NFL/NFLPA media partners occupy the space. I have heard that rumor over the years. 

JBTripper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #477 on: November 30, 2020, 10:20:51 AM »
Not only is Jacksonville a "small market", but when compared with many other small NFL markets, our regional appeal is very small. New Orleans for instance have fans all over the Gulf South. Buffalo have fans all over Western New York and Southern Ontario. The Chiefs have fans all over the Plains. The Raiders are a West Coast brand and the Packers and Colts have a full state to themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if the Jags are not even the most popular team in Gainesville or Daytona.

The most popular team between Gainesville and Daytona is in Gainesville LOL.

The Jags would be a lot more popular if they weren't a dumpster fire year after year.

This is another sticking point with many Jags fans, when the organization complains about "market challenges." The most popular team in Gainesville and Daytona is in Gainesville, because that team puts a compelling product on the field more often than once every 20 years. The Raiders, Packers, Bills, Colts and Chiefs OWN their entire regions because they are a winning brands that people want to associate with (or were at some point at at least appear to be striving to that at some point in the future again).

It's not like the Jaguars can't make headway in Brunswick because it's an established Falcons hotbed. Nobody north of Ocala, south of Macon or east of Pensacola has a "home" NFL team. There's no reason a blue-collar team in a blue-collar town can't expand their market and win over fans in these places. Except by losing, consistently, more than any other team in all of professional sports.

So from a fan and Jacksonville taxpayer perspective, it looks like the Jaguars are trying absolutely everything EXCEPT winning at football to be "viable" - big scoreboards, fancy club seating, swimming pools, pet daycare, real estate development, concert series, professional wrestling, playing home games overseas... When they could just try drafting better, or at least signing their good draft picks to a second contract, or even firing the guys responsible for failures in the draft.

UPDATE! The fired someone. Won't be surprised if they ask for public assistance to pay for a new GM.

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 766
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #478 on: November 30, 2020, 11:56:09 PM »
Well, at least one member of the City Council has common sense, integrity and caring for the taxpayers they are supposed to be representing:  Matt Carlucci.  Here is his approach to Lot J:
Quote
City Council Finance Committee Chair Matt Carlucci’s office released a statement Nov. 30 that if the city does not handle the proposed Lot J mixed-use development, possible TIAA Bank Field upgrades and the lease for the Jacksonville Jaguars correctly, “voters will never forgive us.”

While the three issues may appear to be separate, “They are not,” Carlucci said in a tweet, according to his office.

“They are tied tightly together and should be negotiated as one deal.”....

...In the statement, Carlucci makes five recommendations the city should follow for transparency, accountability and public confidence in the Lot J negotiations:

• Pay attention to the Council Auditor’s report and observations.

• Get negotiations out of the back room.

• Let the DIA do its job as mandated by city ordinance.

• Have the DIA review and conduct a market study on viability and sustainability.

• The Downtown Development Review Board should be involved with the architectural design in terms of what the development will look like and how it fits with the greater Downtown area.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/carlucci-says-lot-j-future-stadium-upgrades-and-jaguars-lease-should-be-one-deal


There is no rational explanation for not checking off the above boxes other than the Council majority being "owned" by the Mayor, Khan and Hardin.  And, given it is going to be 3+ years with the remediation of the polluted Lot J, it certainly is questionable why this process is being rushed to completion by year end - at the urging of Mayor Curry - a false deadline clearly created to get this passed before even more questions, and associated resistance, arises.  Watch for a JEA replay if it passes too quickly.

That aside, if I were Mr. Khan, knowing that it will likely be 3+ years before construction can begin, I would weigh the immense public value to following Carlucci's plan and tell the Mayor let's do this right - we have the time - and get back on track with a transparent, comprehensive, properly supported and fairly negotiated plan.  A plan that covers all the bases for a successful public/private partnership that begins with support of the wider community and allays suspicions of a cram-down on the taxpayers.  Note, Mr. Khan, many of those same taxpayers are your customers and, as a successful businessman, I don't need to tell you goodwill goes a long way with keeping those customers.

I certainly thought after the JEA fiasco, our Council members had turned the corner on how to handle these deals and to not be a robotic tool of the Mayor.  Looks like it may have been wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 12:06:04 AM by jaxlongtimer »

marcuscnelson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • Gen Z - Tired of the status quo
Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #479 on: December 01, 2020, 12:38:40 AM »
Curry's screaming on Twitter for City Council to make a deal ASAP.

Interesting note on his part:
Quote
4.  Don’t bring another Touch Down Jax to the next administration to save the team. It won’t work.They did good/ important work that got & secured the team. I was a part of the 2nd version. But those days are gone. Our decision point is now.  Go on the record as a yes or a no.

Apparently Khan's going to walk if we don't approve this deal, as-is, right now. Very odd. Nate Monroe's wondering why our Mayor would publicly admit (and seemingly celebrate) that Khan has us over a barrel:
Quote
It is, for sure, a significant revelation and a major reversal of their prior public statements to now know the Jaguars are willing to walk away from Jacksonville over a side deal. It should color the entire way Khan’s stewardship of this civic asset is covered and talked about.

Also a good point:
Quote
Jags should confirm or deny Curry's assertion that the Jags staying is contingent on subsidizing Lot J. Even if true, it was a major PR blunder for Curry to go public. Teams usually threaten to move to get a new stadium, not to get public subsidies for owner's pet project.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey