Author Topic: The Ford on Bay  (Read 18432 times)

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #210 on: February 19, 2020, 09:37:12 AM »
Downtown is a big hamster wheel. Yesterday it was the City Hall Annex and the Landing. Today, it's the FBC Sunday school building. Tomorrow, it could be the Universal Marion Building. The mistakes remain the same. So in a way, what's done is actually not really done. It just moves on another site, lighting public money on fire as it continues throughout downtown's streets. As for this site, at this point, whatever is built will be low rise. That's Jax's market and it is, what it is. The potential error here (another that happens in the hamster wheel) is heavily subsidizing stick frame apartments on the waterfront. You can do market rate stick frame now. There's no strong reason to heavily incentivize it. It you want retail.....provide that same level incentives to the existing vacant storefronts and buildings already down there.
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icarus

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #211 on: February 19, 2020, 10:11:30 AM »
Downtown is a big hamster wheel. Yesterday it was the City Hall Annex and the Landing. Today, it's the FBC Sunday school building. Tomorrow, it could be the Universal Marion Building. The mistakes remain the same. So in a way, what's done is actually not really done. It just moves on another site, lighting public money on fire as it continues throughout downtown's streets. As for this site, at this point, whatever is built will be low rise. That's Jax's market and it is, what it is. The potential error here (another that happens in the hamster wheel) is heavily subsidizing stick frame apartments on the waterfront. You can do market rate stick frame now. There's no strong reason to heavily incentivize it. It you want retail.....provide that same level incentives to the existing vacant storefronts and buildings already down there.

As someone who has walked away from investments downtown, I can honestly say that if you want to develop anything in downtown Jacksonville ... you have to financially plan on not being able to do anything for a year to 2 years after you acquire the building or site .... as long as that level of regulation and delay exists .. why would you develop downtown without incentives ....????

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #212 on: February 19, 2020, 10:22:39 AM »
Time is money. Why does it take so long and what would you suggest to reduce the timeline? Is this specific to downtown Jax or the city as a whole?
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Kerry

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #213 on: February 19, 2020, 10:58:35 AM »
It is probably 5 floors for the same reason almost every other apartment building stops at 5 floors.  The fire codes change when you go above 5 floors.  It takes a lot of floors to cover the cost difference and there isn't demand for that many.

Some people on here seem to forget that a project ought to be profitable after construction. We got some people in here saying we ought to build skyscrapers (regardless of their profitability) just to... impress out-of-town investors? That kind of idea sounds like buying a new Cadillac because you wanna show off how good your MLM is doing. Ineffective and unsustainable, all for the sake of TALL BUILDING

Personally, my favorite places have all the buildings in the 3 to 10 story range.  Old London is much better than new London and at least Paris had the good sense to make them build all the highrises in La Defense outside the city limits.
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Wacca Pilatka

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #214 on: February 19, 2020, 11:41:13 AM »
Time is money. Why does it take so long and what would you suggest to reduce the timeline? Is this specific to downtown Jax or the city as a whole?

Plus, wasn't a big part of the point of consolidation to reduce red tape and increase efficiency?
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icarus

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #215 on: February 19, 2020, 01:31:45 PM »
Time is money. Why does it take so long and what would you suggest to reduce the timeline? Is this specific to downtown Jax or the city as a whole?

Its easier to get approval from the historic commission for work in Riverside than to get anything permitted downtown. And infinitely easier to get a building permit anywhere in JAX but downtown. 

Maybe, its because of the focus of wanting development downtown but what you have wound up with is an overlay of nonconnected and noncommunicating regulatory bodies .. any of which can send you all the way back to the starting point.
And dont even get me started on the fire marshal.


heights unknown

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #216 on: February 20, 2020, 12:05:40 AM »
It is probably 5 floors for the same reason almost every other apartment building stops at 5 floors.  The fire codes change when you go above 5 floors.  It takes a lot of floors to cover the cost difference and there isn't demand for that many.

Some people on here seem to forget that a project ought to be profitable after construction. We got some people in here saying we ought to build skyscrapers (regardless of their profitability) just to... impress out-of-town investors? That kind of idea sounds like buying a new Cadillac because you wanna show off how good your MLM is doing. Ineffective and unsustainable, all for the sake of TALL BUILDING
Talking about me? Shhhhhhhhhhhh...don't tell anyone that I'm a tall and super tall fan. I agree with what you said; however, let's be real and face the facts of this matter; if a city has a million people, people that's never been to that city will expect skyscraper density; and no, not trying to impress anyone, but if you have a million people, why not act and look like a city of 1 million people, rather than looking like a city of 200,000 or less. It's sad when Orlando, St. Petersburg, Miami beach, North Miami Beach, etc., have beautiful tall beautiful buildings, and yes skyscrapers taller than Wells Fargo and BOA, and with deep and intense density to boot, and, their populations are not even near the population of Jax; that's my point. But if our city wants to think in a box, i.e., small minded and minor league in all aspects, then maybe we should strip that consolidation moniker (that 1968 citizens voted on), annex neighborhoods in and around the old city limits and urban core and our downtown, and then our skyline will correlate to a city of 300,000 (maybe) rather than close to 1 million. That's all I am saying. Just playing, you probably wasn't talking or referring to me, then again, you probably were; but I am responding to your post because it appears it was speaking to me, and thanks for your post.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 12:11:19 AM by heights unknown »
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Ken_FSU

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #217 on: February 21, 2020, 12:02:24 PM »
DIA greenlit Spandrel's project.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/02/21/dia-approves-136m-plan-to-develop-ford-on-bay.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline

Note from the article on the convention center biz, and some insight as to where the DIA's thoughts are on convention center:

Quote
The DIA received an unsolicited proposal for a convention center in December that did not meet the requirements of the Ford on Bay solicitation process, but per procurement rules, it could not be considered until the formal solicitation process concluded.

The unsolicited bid came from KBJ Architects, which spoke during public comments Friday.

KBJ President Thomas Rensing criticized the board's interest in Spandrel's bid, since Spandrel's second phase was not guaranteed and the full project amounted to a small fraction of the winning convention center bid. That plan by Jacobs Engineering would have cost at least $705 million and comprised 713,000 square feet of hotel and exhibition space, a marina, retail space and apartments.

"The highest and best use is a convention center, multipurpose high-rise development – $162 million of annual impact versus $500,000 of annual impact," Rensing said.

DIA CEO Lori Boyer, in response, noted that studies had concluded Jacksonville was not yet ready for a convention center, but it should be a part of long-term planning. A study further recommended a 25-acre site for a convention center, Boyer said, while the Ford on Bay comprises just 8.4 acres.

Board member Ron Moody added that a convention center could be a better fit for land in the Shipyards district, once the market could support it. Board member Todd Froats agreed that Jacksonville "isn't ready for it," and board member Oliver Barakat noted that the convention center would have demanded hefty incentives to be feasible.

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #218 on: February 21, 2020, 12:58:53 PM »
I feel like what they're saying depends on what exactly is being defined as a "convention center."

We've gone on for years here about how simply building a large open exhibition hall and connecting it to the existing meeting space at the Hyatt would be more than sufficient for the Jacksonville market.

But if they're talking about a convention center needing to be a new exhibition hall plus new meeting space plus new hotel space, and all of it on a massive plot of land, then I can see where they're coming from on us not being ready for that, even if I disagree.

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Board member Ron Moody added that a convention center could be a better fit for land in the Shipyards district, once the market could support it.

But why?

Quote
board member Oliver Barakat noted that the convention center would have demanded hefty incentives to be feasible.

What convention center wouldn't? Does Oliver Barakat believe that if we wait long enough, someone just going to waltz up and say they'll build a convention center for the hell of it?

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #219 on: February 21, 2020, 01:02:59 PM »
The responses aren't surprising but I'd argue they're based on a faulty perspective, an out-of-scale DIA-led convention center RFP and a Shipyards wet dream for the following reasons (based off the quoted comments):

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DIA CEO Lori Boyer, in response, noted that studies had concluded Jacksonville was not yet ready for a convention center, but it should be a part of long-term planning.

The Prime Osborn is a convention center. Like it, admit it or not....we're already in the business.

Quote
A study further recommended a 25-acre site for a convention center, Boyer said, while the Ford on Bay comprises just 8.4 acres.

We're not ready for the massive thing the DIA RFP solicited and what Khan's pixie dust renderings have shown at the Shipyards. However, we won't be ready for those in 2040 either.  Realistically speaking, a lot of our problems would be resolved for the foreseeable future by doing exactly what the civic council advocated for when Alvin Brown was mayor.  That is to construct an exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt. Combined with the Hyatt's existing meeting and ballroom space, that would serve as our convention center/hotel solution for the foreseeable future. That combination isn't 25 acres but it isn't 8.4 acres either. Furthermore, unless we're only thinking horizontally, one could argue that 25 acres is excessive and a poor use of land within an urban area.

The "nothing to do" downtown argument for not addressing our convention center ills is something that would also be resolved by the centralized location. The Elbow, Florida Theater, Northbank Riverwalk, the DIA's restaurant incentive program, MOSH's expansion, events at the Sports District, convention center events itself, consistent programming (something we control locally), the floating ship proposal, etc. are the cluster of things that will give people something to do.

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KBJ President Thomas Rensing criticized the board's interest in Spandrel's bid, since Spandrel's second phase was not guaranteed

Although the renderings were more impressive than Related's, Spandrel's second phase is a pipe dream. Rensing is 100% correct about that. Plus, if the Jax Daily Record article concerning a grocery going into the Old JEA Tower is correct, the market that doesn't exist now for Spandrel's grocery component won't exist in the future either.

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Board member Todd Froats agreed that Jacksonville "isn't ready for it,"

We aren't ready for the thing Khan showed. It would be a larger misuse of tax dollars than the $233 million that will likely be approved for Lot J. Yet, we already have a convention center. It's been operating since 1985. I think we can safely assume it needs some work to remain viable. However, there's a gap between remaining viable for the next 20-30 years and significantly expanding with what the DIA RFP and Khan's renderings have shown.

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and board member Oliver Barakat noted that the convention center would have demanded hefty incentives to be feasible.

The bloated thing the DIA solicited would demand hefty incentives. An adequately sized properly scaled exhibition hall on the back side of the Hyatt  would not cost taxpayers anything near the amount that Lot J will. Spandrel's proposal also will take a bit of incentives and it still isn't 100% realistic.

Although it seems like the DIA would attempt to stop it from happening, as long as they don't stick a stick frame apartment complex on the city hall annex site, market conditions and Hyatt's first right of refusal on the City Hall Annex site leave the window open for a logical solution to the convention center issue. But it may need to be resolved once the current mayoral administration has moved on, so that more creativity and objectivity can be introduced into the downtown revitalization conversation.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 01:08:54 PM by thelakelander »
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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #220 on: February 21, 2020, 01:03:29 PM »
Glad to see they're going ahead with the development.

Regarding the convention center, though, something always seems to be missing. What about the Prime Osborn? We HAVE a convention center, does it suck so much that it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, is it the fact that there's no adjacent hotel?

Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #221 on: February 21, 2020, 01:07:07 PM »
If they want 25 acres for a convention center, that's 6 blocks (if the Bay Street site is 8.4). I get that the Sports Complex has parking but it still has all of the other problems with the current site, mainly being disconnected from everything else.

Where did the 25 acre number come from?

 - Pittsburgh's is just under 10
 - Charlotte's is 8.7
 - Cincinnati's is just over 8
 - OKCs is 14 acres (You're welcome Kerry!)

If Jacksonville "isn't ready" for a convention center, when will they be?

At this point, if the requirement is 25 acres then the only sites you'll likely get is the current one, somewhere in LaVilla (which would be a mistake IMO), the Sports Complex/Riverfront over there, the District property (sorry, I'm still not buying this project whatsoever).

Of those, if you want 25 acres, I think the Sports Complex plan sucks the least. Not the Best, but sucks the least.

The only other possibility that is this large is the First Baptist property, though even if the site worked it doesn't seem likely this would come to fruition.

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #222 on: February 21, 2020, 01:08:10 PM »
Regarding the convention center, though, something always seems to be missing. What about the Prime Osborn? We HAVE a convention center, does it suck so much that it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, is it the fact that there's no adjacent hotel?

It's too small. Events often pass up Jacksonville in lieu of Tampa and Orlando because of that, among other reasons.

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #223 on: February 21, 2020, 01:27:04 PM »
Regarding the convention center, though, something always seems to be missing. What about the Prime Osborn? We HAVE a convention center, does it suck so much that it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, is it the fact that there's no adjacent hotel?

It's too small. Events often pass up Jacksonville in lieu of Tampa and Orlando because of that, among other reasons.

The Prime's exhibition hall is too small, there's no hotel and it is isolated from things like museums, restaurants, bars, retail, etc. While we're in a different tier than Tampa and Orlando and will never directly compete with them, we can resolve the majority of our Prime Osborn issues by just building an exhibition hall that's slightly larger than the Prime's next to the Hyatt. The Hyatt already has hotel rooms, just as much meeting space and a larger ballroom than the Prime Osborn. It's also centrally located. All it needs is a Walmart type box next too it. That shouldn't cost +$100 million like the rest of the bloated proposals we've seen floating out there.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 01:29:21 PM by thelakelander »
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thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #224 on: February 21, 2020, 01:30:26 PM »
Glad to see they're going ahead with the development.

Regarding the convention center, though, something always seems to be missing. What about the Prime Osborn? We HAVE a convention center, does it suck so much that it doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, is it the fact that there's no adjacent hotel?

Yes, it's crazy that we don't acknowledge that we already have a convention center. It may suck, but it does exist.
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