Author Topic: The Ford on Bay  (Read 2981 times)

heights unknown

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2019, 06:08:40 PM »
I love the way you guys expose DIA and Lenny Curry. I'll bet they hate this forum. That's what they get!
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vicupstate

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2019, 08:37:39 PM »
Only in Jacksonville would the cost of demolishing a building would be considered economic development.
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Lunican

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2019, 10:36:38 PM »
Under Office and Retail - Proposed:

The Jacksonville Landing demolition .............................$18,000,000

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2019, 10:54:33 PM »
That list is pure foolishness. But in this town, people can make a claim with a straight face and not get called out on it by media. Probably because people are taking numbers at face value and not spending any ounce of time doing fact checking.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2019, 02:24:08 AM »
The list for "Downtown" is not at all credible.  It is better described as "incredible" and for all the wrong reasons  8).

Aside from the aforementioned comments about including things like demolition of buildings (and the Hart Bridge ramps for $37 million) and interstate expenditures that serve to expedite people getting "around" Downtown more than into it, it includes routine maintenance items like office renovations and infrastructure repairs.  Why don't they go on and add all maintenance and operating costs of every structure in the area.  This type of "investment" mostly just maintains the status quo as refreshes/upkeep without adding employees or contributing to the development of the greater area unless they are re-purposing a building or bringing a long dormant building back online.

JEA is shrinking employment downtown but they are down for $72 million.  Most of the dollars of significance are in Brooklyn and the Southbank.  When I grew up here, no one ever called those areas "downtown.  "And, Downtown didn't include the "Stadium District" either as that was all industrial. 

How about subtracting the values of buildings going offline like the First Baptist properties, the Landing, the old City Hall and Courthouse, the old Greyhound bus station, the Catholic center, the soon to be vacant (demolished?) JEA building, the Florida Times Union building (hey, they included it in their new office build-out!), all the restaurants that close (like FSCJ's 20 West that they included in their total), etc.  They should also subtract all the tax credits and incentives ($233 million just for Lot J) the City puts up.

As to the $3.6 billion in proposed projects, are they going to count those every year, over and over, until they get built, if ever?  Most are likely pie in the sky projects and numbers that have been thrown around for over 10 years (can you say "Berkman Plaza II" or the "Shipyards" - down for a cool $2 billion or over half of the total shown).  Interestingly, they missed adding the $100 million aquarium and millions more for the USS Adams. LOL.

Surprised they didn't count FIS's likely new $145 million Brooklyn HQ's as "proposed."  Missed that one.

For this list to have any real value, it should have at least three minimum requirements:  Only count private dollars invested, only count projects for which construction began during the subject period (i.e. can only count a project once!) and only projects that increase the permanent employment base.  Everything else is smoke and mirrors and comparisons from one period to another become meaningless as a result.  They should also breakdown the numbers by Brooklyn, Southbank, Northbank and Stadium to highlight what pieces are thriving and which are just treading water.

The real test to me for Downtown is how resilient it will be during an economic downturn.  Will businesses and residents move out in droves or hang in there for the long haul because Downtown is a truly viable neighborhood in good times and bad?

Bill Hoff

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2019, 08:34:50 AM »
The real test to me for Downtown is how resilient it will be during an economic downturn.  Will businesses and residents move out in droves or hang in there for the long haul because Downtown is a truly viable neighborhood in good times and bad?

Already passed that test about 9 years ago. Whatever downturn happens in the future, won't be as devastating as what its already been through.

vicupstate

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2019, 08:58:00 AM »


Already passed that test about 9 years ago. Whatever downturn happens in the future, won't be as devastating as what its already been through.

I agree that it passed that test 9 years ago, but I don't have faith that the next downturn won't be as bad or worse than 2008. It MIGHT not be, but it is possible, IMO.
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thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2019, 09:03:08 AM »
Downtown is already resilient. In reality, residents didn't move out of downtown in droves in 2008. Things went stagnant but that was all over and not just downtown.  The only true sickness it has is COJ's political leadership and shortsightedness. 
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

vicupstate

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2019, 09:23:38 AM »
Downtown is already resilient. In reality, residents didn't move out of downtown in droves in 2008. Things went stagnant but that was all over and not just downtown.  The only true sickness it has is COJ's political leadership and shortsightedness. 

True dat. I think Breyer will be an improvement provided she has some independence from the higher ups. 
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

Kerry

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2019, 09:52:27 AM »
Downtown is already resilient. In reality, residents didn't move out of downtown in droves in 2008. Things went stagnant but that was all over and not just downtown.  The only true sickness it has is COJ's political leadership and shortsightedness. 

True dat. I think Breyer will be an improvement provided she has some independence from the higher ups.

She was on News4Jax over the weekend selling the Ford on Bay RFP.  It was cringe inducing.  Basically sold it to the viewers that some unknown project will be under construction within 6 months.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 10:00:02 AM by Kerry »
Third Place

Kerry

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2019, 10:38:33 AM »
Maybe we can add $350,000,000 in downtown investment every time Khan brings the Kismet to town.
Third Place

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2019, 11:13:20 AM »
It's more likely that people will still be parking there in six months. Unless, someone is installing tents, it's pretty much impossible time-wise for anything to be under construction within six months, considering time will be needed to respond to a RFP, select the winner and negotiate with the winning selection. That alone, will likely take two or three months minimum. If you're lucky, at that point you'll be on a typical development timeline which will include everything from design and engineering plan production, financing, permitting, DDRB approval, etc.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Kerry

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2019, 07:58:44 AM »
I don't see any reason why all of a sudden Jax is going to start developing downtown in the absence of any coordinated plan on the City's part.  An RFP isn't a plan.
Third Place

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2019, 08:44:44 AM »
I'd like to see more RFPs issued sooner rather than later, but without a doubt a RFP is not a plan.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

MusicMan

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2019, 08:51:17 AM »
"It's more likely that people will still be parking there in six months. Unless, someone is installing tents, it's pretty much impossible time-wise for anything to be under construction within six months, considering time will be needed to respond to a RFP, select the winner and negotiate with the winning selection. That alone, will likely take two or three months minimum. If you're lucky, at that point you'll be on a typical development timeline which will include everything from design and engineering plan production, financing, permitting, DDRB approval, etc."


Just gonna say one thing:   The District