Author Topic: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It  (Read 1277 times)

jaxlongtimer

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"Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« on: August 18, 2019, 02:47:21 AM »
Mark Woods, cites the Bible (used by General Counsel Jason Gabriel to support his awkward interpretation) and City ordinances referencing "shall" thousands of times.  Woods imagines what it would be like if all those instances could be interpreted as "may" starting with the 10 Commandments and followed by a citation of a small sample of City laws that are now "discretionary" given they now "may" be followed, rather than "shall" be followed.  A very clever column that skewers "Angel Gabriel's" ruling on the state statute regarding the School Board's referendum to repair Duval County schools.

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190817/mark-woods-word-from-above-about-shall

Why the City Council would ever want to wander into school issues when we already have an elected body fully devoted to same is beyond me.  I won't get into all the double standards the City Council is applying but read Nate Monroe's columns (at Jacksonville.com) for further enlightenment on that.  Clearly, our controlling Mayor's hand prints are all over this as he kisses up to the charter school industry and the City Council (and General Counsel) is proving once again they are a mere rubber stamp for Curry, unwilling and/or unable to think and act independently for the good of the citizens who elected them.  I hope voters have long memories for the next election as we do not have a "representative" government in Jacksonville with the current crew.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 02:56:04 AM by jaxlongtimer »

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 02:50:30 PM »
Why the City Council MAYOR would ever want to wander into school issues when we already have an elected body fully devoted to same is beyond me.

This is the easiest question to answer - he won't ever have 'new taxes while in office' added to his resume.
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vicupstate

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 09:48:06 AM »
Why the City Council MAYOR would ever want to wander into school issues when we already have an elected body fully devoted to same is beyond me.

This is the easiest question to answer - he won't ever have 'new taxes while in office' added to his resume.

Considering the tax increase would have nothing to do with him, even if it passed, that is pretty lame. I think the Charter crowd and their funding/marching orders (Koch?) is more likely the primary motivation.   
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 07:20:35 PM »
Quote
“The recent decision of the Circuit Court reaffirms Florida law that the City Council cannot meddle with the business of the School District or seek to impose its own designs on a School District’s plans.” [in letter by volunteer attorneys Coxe, Gentry & Cairns]

So the Clay County court case judge determined that the County Commission MUST put their school board referendum on the ballot in a reasonable time, say within about 1 year.

Quote
"Just as you [General Counsel Jason Gabriel] agreed that the Council cannot modify the School Board’s Capital Plan, the Council cannot hold a Resolution hostage from placement on the ballot to exact concessions unrelated to the crisis confronted by our public-school children,” the letter [by attorneys Coxe, Gentry & Cairns] said.

This is the essence of the school board referendum issue.  It is not in the purview of the City Council (or a meddling mayor) to extort the School Board to get favorable treatment for charter schools by holding up the referendum for an unreasonable time, including indefinitely, thereby effectively depriving our public schools of the opportunity to timely obtain necessary funding for proper maintenance that impacts the safety and education of our children.

Quote
Gabriel said. “To the extent Judge Whittington’s Order, to borrow your phrase, ‘has debunked’ a legal opinion, it is the one you, Mr. Coxe and Mr. Cairns authored on August 16, 2019.”

Yet, without specificity, Jax General Counsel Jason Gabriel continues to say otherwise and claim the judge's ruling supports the GC's position.  Really? How? Refer to statement at beginning of this post.

Full story at: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190819/jacksonville-general-counsel-denies-school-board-legal-teams-demand-to-rescind-referendum-opinion

jaxlongtimer

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 09:30:42 PM »
Just in...

Quote
The Jacksonville City Council voted 14-5 Tuesday to withdraw a bill that would have put a half-cents sales tax referendum for schools on the ballot for voters to decide.

The vote ends the consideration by council for a referendum unless the Duval County School Board, which made its request in May for a Nov. 5 referendum, comes back at a later date and asks City Council again to put the choice before voters.

Voting for withdrawal were Danny Becton, Aaron Bowman, Michael Boylan, LeeAnna Cumber, Rory Diamond, Al Ferraro, Terrance Freeman, Reggie Gaffney, Tommy Hazouri, Sam Newby, Ju’Coby Pittman, Ron Salem, Randy White, and City Council President Scott Wilson.

Voting against withdrawal were Matt Carlucci, Randy DeFoor, Garrett Dennis, Joyce Morgan and Brenda Priestly Jackson.

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190827/city-council-rebuffs-school-boards-request-for-sales-tax-referendum

Council refused to heed words that they did not have standing to debate or negotiate the referendum, only to put in on the ballot in a timely manner.  Council Member Carlucci offered to defer to November 2020 to avoid a special election and give more time to sell the referendum but that wasn't good enough for the majority.  Warnings were made by some they may end up in an expensive court battle.

Will be interesting to see if council members pay the price for going against the wishes of over 70% of the voters per several polls on the issue.

tufsu1

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2019, 08:48:18 AM »
Will be interesting to see if council members pay the price for going against the wishes of over 70% of the voters per several polls on the issue.

Not that I am pleased with the actions or the votes of Council last night (especially clearing citizens out of the chambers), but this is an incorrect characterization. Most Council members have said they favor the concept of additional revenue for public schools. I'm not sure if any polls have asked when the referendum should be held.

Council members clearly did not like the actions taken by the School Board the day before, and that hurt Carlucci's deferral option.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:09:39 AM by tufsu1 »

thelakelander

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 09:35:12 AM »
I haven't fully been following this issue over the last few days. What action did the school board take that the council did not agree with?
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itsfantastic1

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 09:38:21 AM »
The council wants more money on a per-pupil allocation for charter schools. The school board says this does not make sense as the oldest charter is still newer than the newest public school. In addition, some charters don't own their property so it would not make sense to pay for capital improvements of a building they don't own. However, all schools, public and charter, get the necessary security upgrades and charters can apply for capital funding if they demonstrate a need and own the building.

This whole thing is the city council acting like a school board and using its power to set a referendum date to modify portions of the plan the school board has already approved and wants on the ballot.

tufsu1

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 10:18:01 AM »
I haven't fully been following this issue over the last few days. What action did the school board take that the council did not agree with?

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190826/duval-school-board-oks-superintendents-funding-charter-schools-via-sale-tax

Tacachale

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 10:21:03 AM »
I haven't fully been following this issue over the last few days. What action did the school board take that the council did not agree with?

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190826/duval-school-board-oks-superintendents-funding-charter-schools-via-sale-tax

Why wouldn’t they be happy about that? Isn’t that what they want?
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Charles Hunter

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 11:15:11 AM »
The Charter School Council Members want capital funds on a per pupil basis. The DCPS says they can apply for grants, based on the same evaluation criteria the school system used to evaluate the repair/replacement needs of public schools.  The charter school folks don't like that because they know they won't qualify for nearly as much (any?) money when based on documented NEED.

thelakelander

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 12:21:29 PM »
So basically council members are pushing the civic council's position and holding everything up as a result? Lol, in this town everything boils back down to money. Hmmm, perhaps the school board should file suit.
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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 12:29:21 PM »
So basically council members are pushing the civic council's position and holding everything up as a result? Lol, in this town everything boils back down to money. Hmmm, perhaps the school board should file suit.

Hence the 'legal battle' that was insinuated I suppose.

It's all just fucked up honestly, but Charter/Public/Private it's still up to the parents to make sure the kids are being educated.  The only losers in this game are the taxpayers in general and the folks who honestly can't afford (time,distance and/or money) choices.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 02:29:33 PM »
Not that I am pleased with the actions or the votes of Council last night (especially clearing citizens out of the chambers), but this is an incorrect characterization. Most Council members have said they favor the concept of additional revenue for public schools. I'm not sure if any polls have asked when the referendum should be held.

Council members clearly did not like the actions taken by the School Board the day before, and that hurt Carlucci's deferral option.

I beg to differ some.  The public polls I have seen indicated that most of the voters want the referendum sooner (i.e. in 2019) than have it delayed a year to November, 2020.  The perception is the need is urgent and now and waiting a year is a needless delay and endangers kids and impairs their education.  That said, the Council also did not consider Carlucci's proposal to approve the referendum vote in November of 2020, so saying that a special election was too soon and/or too expensive was just a red herring.

The City Council refusing to set a referendum date in a "reasonable time" (as just determined to be required by State law by a judge in Clay County) without the School Board capitulating to its blatant charter school preconditions amounts to a form of extortion.  It will interesting to see if someone files a lawsuit to compel the City Council to set a referendum date without such preconditions.

Council people saying they support the referendum is just rhetorical window dressing at this point to cover their tracks of catering to the charter school special interests.  As noted in last night's debate, by withdrawing the referendum action, neither traditional or charter schools will receive any benefits at any level for at least over a year so every kid is a loser.

On top of everything else, we have an elected school board directly accountable to the voters, to manage our schools.  The City Council's job is to manage the City of Jacksonville and they should butt out of the school board's business.  Let's see if the City Council uses the same standards of fiduciary responsibility when they vote on the $233 millions for Lot J where Khan has stated he may reallocate the dollars anytime as he sees fit.

itsfantastic1

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Re: "Shall" vs. "May" - Woods Nails It
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 02:38:09 PM »
Not that I am pleased with the actions or the votes of Council last night (especially clearing citizens out of the chambers), but this is an incorrect characterization. Most Council members have said they favor the concept of additional revenue for public schools. I'm not sure if any polls have asked when the referendum should be held.

Council members clearly did not like the actions taken by the School Board the day before, and that hurt Carlucci's deferral option.

Let's see if the City Council uses the same standards of fiduciary responsibility when they vote on the $233 millions for Lot J where Khan has stated he may reallocate the dollars anytime as he sees fit.

Lol