Author Topic: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street  (Read 1050 times)

thelakelander

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A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« on: May 21, 2019, 08:39:36 AM »
Quote
The rapid transformation of Pensacola's Palafox Street serves as a revitalization example for Jacksonville's Northbank to follow.

November 2007


May 2019

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-lesson-for-jacksonville-pensacolas-palafox-street/
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vicupstate

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 08:48:17 AM »
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.
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Kerry

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 11:10:24 AM »
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.

I would rather see Jax spend money on things like this instead of throwing money in the trash chasing corporations.  Build a place people actually want to be in - and the jobs will show up all by themselves.
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fieldafm

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 01:37:44 PM »
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.

I would rather see Jax spend money on things like this instead of throwing money in the trash chasing corporations.  Build a place people actually want to be in - and the jobs will show up all by themselves.

Because so much industry is located in Pensacola?

Pensacola is the Navy, tourism (lots of service industry jobs), a few regional hospitals, some (and some is emphasized) manufacturing, and the Navy (typed twice for emphasis).

bl8jaxnative

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2019, 12:59:53 PM »
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.

I'd be happy to bet you a few Andrew Jacksons that nothing would change.   That may be part of the puzzle but it's not at the core.

vicupstate

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 09:53:17 AM »
It would be a real interesting experiment if JAX simply changed all (or at least most) of the streets to two way, and then just watched what happened for two years.

I'd be happy to bet you a few Andrew Jacksons that nothing would change.   That may be part of the puzzle but it's not at the core.

It is an impediment to be sure. It would only help, even if it wasn't a panecea, which I never said it was.  Virtually no one would object either. I would call it low-hanging fruit. 
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Steve

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2019, 10:58:47 AM »
To me there's no reason not to change all streets to two way, save for State/Union.

1. I'd start with the Monroe, Bay, and all north-south streets EXCEPT Broad/Jefferson and Main/Ocean as these are the biggest impediments today and also should be the easiest to do.
2. Come back to Forsyth/Adams and Duval/Church/Ashley. While it shouldn't be crazy hard to do these, at least they alternate consistently.
3. Lastly, I'd do Broad/Jefferson and Main/Ocean. It really should be done but this will likely not come cheap with the bridge ramps.

At this point, the only remaining one way streets would be Union and State, which would be a giant pain and expensive to do, plus I think it would be a giant mess traffic count wise.

Kerry

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2019, 11:23:44 AM »
Even State and Union should be two-way (or at least reduce the number of lanes).  Route all the Arlington Expressway traffic to MLK Parkway.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 12:40:07 PM »
The Main/Ocean and State/Union pairs (but not Broad/Jefferson) are state roads, so approval by FDOT would be necessary.

Actually, even leaving those roads 1-way, coordination with FDOT would be necessary for all the 2-way conversions, as all of those streets cross either the State/Union or Main/Ocean state roadways. This is because of the traffic signals at each of the intersection would have to be modified to handle 2-way traffic on the local streets. Most likely, this would involve a new traffic signal pole one or two mast arms at each intersection. FDOT would probably want the City to share the costs of these.

Steve

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 02:21:21 PM »
Even State and Union should be two-way (or at least reduce the number of lanes).  Route all the Arlington Expressway traffic to MLK Parkway.

Why don't we start with the non-complex ones first? Nothing says you couldn't do it later.

Steve

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2019, 02:23:03 PM »
The Main/Ocean and State/Union pairs (but not Broad/Jefferson) are state roads, so approval by FDOT would be necessary.

Actually, even leaving those roads 1-way, coordination with FDOT would be necessary for all the 2-way conversions, as all of those streets cross either the State/Union or Main/Ocean state roadways. This is because of the traffic signals at each of the intersection would have to be modified to handle 2-way traffic on the local streets. Most likely, this would involve a new traffic signal pole one or two mast arms at each intersection. FDOT would probably want the City to share the costs of these.

My guess is the COJ would have to bear the lion's share of the cost. FDOT typically doesn't care about anything other than how fast we can move cars, so this isn't going to be a priority with them.

I'm assuming the paint and signs are relatively cheap, but any idea of a ballpark cost per intersection for the signals?

Charles Hunter

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2019, 05:23:34 PM »
Using data from this site: https://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/estimates/historicalcostinformation/historicalcost.shtm
It looks like the cost of adding 1 vertical pole with 1 mast arm and appropriate traffic signals, but leaving the existing pedestrian signals; and assuming that the State Roads remain 1-way.  Estimate cost for one new signal, about $40,000.  There would be additional cost to remove the existing pavement markings and put down new ones. This will vary by the number of lanes, and whether you do a single intersection, or a series of them together.

PLEASE DO NOT HOLD ME TO THESE NUMBERS. (This is not a bid to do the work.   :)  ) There are a number of unknowns - like what is beneath where the new signal pole goes? Is there enough room in the right-of-way for the new pole, or would some additional land be needed?

Again, these guestimates assume Main, Ocean, State, and Union remain as they are today, one-way with the same number of lanes.
To convert the existing local 1-way streets intersecting Main and Ocean would cost about $560,000, from Bay to Ashley. 

To do the same for all the local 1-way streets crossing State and Union, from Lee to Market, would be a little over $700,000, if I counted intersections correctly (18).   

Converting those State Roads to two-way would significantly increase the cost, as each new signal pole would need 2 arms, instead of one. That would increase the cost along Main/Ocean by about $10,000 per installation. State/Ocean, since they are much wider would cost about $40,000 more, each.

Another concern is how to configure a 2-way Main Street? It has 3 lanes now. Do you continue the 2 lanes southbound / 1 northbound in newly converted block between State and Union? If you want 4 lanes, you have to steal it from the sidewalks (which are wider than normal for downtown).  If so, that increases the cost significantly, as the drainage system would have to be redone, in addition to changes to the sidewalks and roadway. Ocean could handle 4 lanes, although it may take parking in some blocks.  You would need some very clear signs to prevent southbound traffic on Ocean from trying to use the exit ramp leaving the Main Street Bridge at Bay.

vicupstate

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 08:13:11 AM »
Haven't they already run an estimate of the cost and it was like $8mm for all of DT?
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Steve

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 09:27:32 AM »
Another concern is how to configure a 2-way Main Street? It has 3 lanes now. Do you continue the 2 lanes southbound / 1 northbound in newly converted block between State and Union? If you want 4 lanes, you have to steal it from the sidewalks (which are wider than normal for downtown).  If so, that increases the cost significantly, as the drainage system would have to be redone, in addition to changes to the sidewalks and roadway. Ocean could handle 4 lanes, although it may take parking in some blocks.  You would need some very clear signs to prevent southbound traffic on Ocean from trying to use the exit ramp leaving the Main Street Bridge at Bay.

My thought is Main becomes two lanes in each direction to Forsyth, and the right northbound lane becomes turn only, but then it's one lane northbound up to State.

You obviously could do it, but I doubt that would be approved by FDOT.

Historically it was two in each direction, so either at some point the sidewalk was widened or they had significantly narrower lanes. I believe they are 12' lanes now. I suppose you could do 9' lanes (Laura is 8' so not impossible) but again, I doubt FDOT would do it.

All of this is why you wait on State/Union/Main/Ocean/Broad/Jefferson. If you do every other street we're be in a MUCH better position than we are now.

Kerry

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Re: A Lesson for Jacksonville: Pensacola's Palafox Street
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 10:12:18 AM »
Sadly, just returning them to two-way is still thinking small.  The entire right-of-way from building to building needs to be redone.  New sidewalks, new street lighting, new sidewalk furniture, new landscaping, new parking strategy, new pavement where necessary, bike lanes (bike share is already dead), new way finding system, etc...  The whole place needs a make-over and something still needs to be done with the homeless.
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