Author Topic: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019  (Read 3065 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2019, 02:53:12 PM »
I think they said demolition would be completed by 2021, but I am not 100% certain.

They hope it will be complete by the end 2021. The original completion date for the Liberty Street project was 2018. Now it's 2020. Again, the dates they give are optimistic and would be a best case scenario without any hiccups or delays and discoveries of unknowns from +100 years of past development. It won't take much for the end of 2021 to turn to 2023. I say this as not coming from a negative perspective but a being a realist about the process and timeline generally associated with these types of roadway projects.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2019, 03:11:12 PM »
Could a Moderator please split the 2019 discussion into a Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019 thread?  There were already 29 pages in the 2018 thread.
Thank you.

thelakelander

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2019, 03:15:02 PM »
Done.
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Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2019, 03:40:17 PM »
They just proposed the Brooklyn neighborhood.  Except Brooklyn has 3X as many apartments and more restaurants and a grocery store, and all combined was way less than $500 million and minimal public subsidy.
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thelakelander

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2019, 03:54:37 PM »
Pretty much. After all the press this project has received, those numbers were underwhelming. Will be cool to have development there, but what's proposed isn't going to do anything more for DT than what Brooklyn already does today. It's far enough removed to be a world of its own for at least another generation.
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fieldafm

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2019, 04:07:52 PM »
They just proposed the Brooklyn neighborhood.  Except Brooklyn has 3X as many apartments and more restaurants and a grocery store, and all combined was way less than $500 million and minimal public subsidy.

And by 'minimal' you are of course counting a $150 million highway interchange, a $150 million bridge replacement, $35 million in roadway and drainage improvements, $12.5 million for the Fidelity headquarters relocation, more than $10 million in public money spent between the construction of Unity Plaza and the Northbank Riverwalk extension and another $30 million in property tax breaks for buildings like 220 Riverside, Brooklyn Riverside, Brooklyn Station on Riverside, Raymond James Building and TIAA Bank Building? You also are of course counting the $4 million to build the Northbank Riverwalk Artist Square (home to the Riverside Arts Market) and later the additional $400k to build a floating dock for RAM?

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/

Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2019, 04:35:39 PM »
All those road expenses you listed weren't for the benefit of Brooklyn residents.  Those were so suburbanites could get home 2 minutes faster.  If you want to throw in all office development in Brooklyn and then compare that to Khanville have at it because again Brooklyn blows it away.

Btw - have you seen the development in downtown Tampa being done by the owner of the Lightning.  $3.2 billion dollars privately funded.

18 towers, 3500 residential units, 2 hotels, 1,000,000 sq ft of retail, 2,000,000 sq ft of office space and 13 acres of park.

www.waterstreettampa.com
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 04:42:36 PM by Kerry »
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Kiva

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2019, 05:38:30 PM »
Interesting that they compared Lot J to Ballpark village in St. Louis, and included a "rendering". https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-moving-forward-with-dollar500-million-plan-for-lot-j
Ballpark village broke ground 5 years ago, and the St. Louis Cardinals president was quoted as saying: “It’s kind of like watching water boil,” he said, laughing. “You know it’s going to happen, but it’s too slow.”

thelakelander

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2019, 05:50:05 PM »
Ballpark Village is two blocks from City Garden and the downtown core. Not a mile away. How Jax sells comparisons of things in other cities is totally taken out of context.....which ultimately sets the public up for massive disappointment.
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Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2019, 08:03:23 PM »
Ballpark Village is two blocks from City Garden and the downtown core. Not a mile away. How Jax sells comparisons of things in other cities is totally taken out of context.....which ultimately sets the public up for massive disappointment.

Just once I would like the Jags to be honest.  It must suck to be in constant spin mode.
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Ken_FSU

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2019, 09:44:29 PM »
^Compared to other NFL franchises, I think the Jags are reasonably transparent.

If you watched State of the Franchise, Lamping never said that Lot J was apples-to-apples to Ballpark Village or the Power & Light District in terms of surrounding uses or proximity to the CBD. He simply said (I'm paraphrasing here), "we haven't completed designs yet, here's what it could look like based on office and residential uses at other Cordish developments."

I don't think there was anything at all super manipulative today.

The Jags directly stated, "we want to pad our local revenue by adding complimenting uses near the stadium."

For the Jags, it's a sound strategy that's being repeated all over the country by professional sports franchises, and Cordish is a good partner with a good track record.

For Jacksonville residents attending events at the sports complex, Lot J would serve a legitimate need.

There are hundred of events drawing literally millions of people a year to the stadium district, and aside from a food counter at Intuition, you can't event get dinner in the sports complex before or after an event.

It's a lost opportunity for the Jags, a pain point for event attendees, and to Lamping's point, no one else is exactly doing anything in the last couple of years to serve that captive audience.

And in a vehicle centric city like Jacksonville without an urban circulator extending to the sports complex, if we're going to say that a Lot J development is too far away from the CBD to contribute toward a vibrant urban core, I think it's also fair to say in turn that the central core is too far from the sports complex to be the primary pregame and postgame spot. People aren't going to park twice or walk three miles round trip to grab a drink at Volstead after a Suns game.

Lamping's correct when he says that Lot J will add jobs, residents, and revenue to downtown Jacksonville, even if the impact on the true urban core is probably negligent.

And in a vacuum, even though I'd prefer it at the Courthouse site, I think a Live! venue would be a really fun, really useful addition to the sports complex.

I've got zero problem with the Jags for pushing for a project that's in their best interests, even if the barbell theory and residual effects to the west are overstated.

At the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.

We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.

It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.

I might be in the minority here, but Lamping impressed me today. He praised the city for making it a very successful year for the Jags. He presented hard evidence that Daily's Place is bringing new people and new revenue ($26 million) to the sports complex. There were zero threats about relocation or London, and Khan and Lamping openly expressed a desire to make a lease extension possible through cost-effective improvements to the stadium rather than a full replacement. And Lamping was even very honest about how adding JEA at Lot J would have ultimately been a zero-sum game that wouldn't really benefit downtown.

They're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.

Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 09:57:40 PM by Ken_FSU »

thelakelander

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2019, 06:46:45 AM »
I wasn't impressed but I have realized that Lot J is small enough where it doesn't have to compete or take away from the core. We're not talking Brickell City Centre here. We're looking at a 200 unit hotel, 300 apartments, a Live! and an office building.  As long as the office tenant isn't already downtown, it complements. The larger issue is COJ, having no master plan and our tendency to view single developments as game changers. Lot J isn't a gamechanger anymore than the Trio/Barnett, VyStar, Hyatt and the redevelopment of Landing can be. Jax just needs to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time. A downtown master plan would help because everyone would then be able to look at things from a holistic perspective. 
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acme54321

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 07:05:18 AM »
Lot J isnt anywhere near a gamechanger for downtown.  What's (relatively) quietly happeneing along Laura between the river and Hemming is though.

fieldafm

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2019, 08:11:58 AM »
Quote
All those road expenses you listed weren't for the benefit of Brooklyn residents.  Those were so suburbanites could get home 2 minutes faster.  If you want to throw in all office development in Brooklyn and then compare that to Khanville have at it because again Brooklyn blows it away.

Having actually lived here during that time, I can assure you point blank that all of that infrastructure work was done to drive development. Some of that work was shortsighted (razing buildings and making Forrest and Riverside into an essentially six-lane highways) and some of that has worked out well (the interchange is what is making retail in Brooklyn work and the Fidelity relocation has been a grand slam for Jacksonville). All of that is noted in the article I posted.

My point is, the world isn't black and white. Brooklyn's office development during the early 2000's, and the two apartment buildings that rose up in the mid 2010's all had significant incentives (either direct or indirect). Any comparison that ignores the hundreds of millions of public money poured into Brooklyn over almost three decades, is like calling a painting of stick figures the Mona Lisa.

Quote
Btw - have you seen the development in downtown Tampa being done by the owner of the Lightning.  $3.2 billion dollars privately funded.

18 towers, 3500 residential units, 2 hotels, 1,000,000 sq ft of retail, 2,000,000 sq ft of office space and 13 acres of park

I am intimately familiar with that project.

You are also leaving out the fact that Water Street is receiving $100 million in TIF monies, another $30 million in roadwork paid by the City of Tampa and the City got a TIGER grant a few years ago to extend the Tampa Riverwalk essentially up to Water Street. And even in an environment where office space vacancy is lower in Tampa than what it is in Jacksonville, they have also struggled to attract a corporate headquarters to anchor that development (Mosaic, a F500 company, chose Midtown Tampa over Water Street Tampa. MidTown Tampa has taken almost three decades to break ground, at one point it was being pitched as the site of a new stadium for the Rays). The big difference between that development, and anything happening around TIAA Bank Field... is that because the office vacancy rate is so low in Tampa, Cascades et al have a little more incentive to build the first two office buildings on more of a spec basis and incrementally backfill them with smaller tenants. It also helps that USF is opening a downtown presence at Water Street Tampa... that's not exactly 'privately-funded' tenant relocation either.

Juxtapose that with The District. The District is a CDD, which means the infrastructure necessary to support the development will be bonded out and paid back via CDD fees from future PAD site owners. Why a CDD instead of tapping into the Southbank TIF? Because the remaining positive cash flow from the Southbank TIF was used to build the Riverplace Road Diet. Until a few years ago, the Northbank TIF was in the red.  There simply wasn't enough cash being generated from either of the Downtown CRAs to structure The District's deal in the same manner as that of Water Street.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 08:43:53 AM by fieldafm »

fieldafm

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2019
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2019, 08:33:38 AM »
Quote
At the end of the day, if there's a good guy or a bad guy here, it's going to be the mayor and City Council who have been elected to control the pursestrings and act in the best interests of the city.

We can't have everything, and Lot J will come with a very real opportunity cost.

It's the city's ultimate responsibility to make the choices that best align with of our ultimate goals (which is why a master plan would be nice), and to be transparent with the public about what led to those decisions.

Quote
They're shrewd businessmen who are perfectly willing to play the subsidy game, but compared to what else is out there, I kind of appreciate them.

Doesn't mean handing them a convention center or over-subsidizing their residential developments is the right move, but that will ultimately be on our elected officials for caving, not the Jags for asking.

Very much agree with these points.