Author Topic: Jaguars New Stadium?  (Read 16224 times)

Adam White

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #210 on: November 18, 2019, 04:11:23 AM »
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

I-10east

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2019, 04:55:36 PM »
^^^Fair enough

copperfiend

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #212 on: November 20, 2019, 09:23:51 AM »
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 09:30:42 AM by copperfiend »

Kerry

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #213 on: November 20, 2019, 12:03:57 PM »
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.
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copperfiend

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #214 on: November 20, 2019, 12:25:05 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #215 on: November 20, 2019, 01:14:32 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily’s Place
About 90% of UNF’s campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Kerry

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #216 on: November 20, 2019, 01:28:27 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily’s Place
About 90% of UNF’s campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Yes things have come since then, and just as much has left (see The Landing), and most never materialized at all.  Alas, my focus always has been on the urban core.

Also, Daily's Place IS a Save the Jags expenditure.  The whole purpose of it was to generate revenue for the Jags.  Otherwise, the City would just own it outright and not share profits with the Jags.
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Kerry

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #217 on: November 20, 2019, 01:30:56 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Yeah, so what do you think was different about Baltimore, Charlotte, and Nashville that Jax didn't have?  Is it possible they had other things going for them and not just an NFL expansion/relocation?
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Steve

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #218 on: November 20, 2019, 01:34:57 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Yeah, so what do you think was different about Baltimore, Charlotte, and Nashville that Jax didn't have?  Is it possible they had other things going for them and not just an NFL expansion/relocation?

Playing Devil's Advocate, Baltimore fought like crazy for 16 years to get an NFL team back once they lost theirs. So something clearly made them do it.

Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #219 on: November 20, 2019, 02:18:43 PM »
I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily’s Place
About 90% of UNF’s campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Yes things have come since then, and just as much has left (see The Landing), and most never materialized at all.  Alas, my focus always has been on the urban core.

Also, Daily's Place IS a Save the Jags expenditure.  The whole purpose of it was to generate revenue for the Jags.  Otherwise, the City would just own it outright and not share profits with the Jags.

It's always something with you. Most of those things *are* in the Urban Core, and the city does own Daily's Place outright. It's also not the case that "just has much has left". San Marco Square, St. Nicholas Town Center, Murray Hill, and King Street have all taken off starting with the Town Center program. Five Points has grown into a hot spot. The point is, the Jaguars didn't take away the ability for those all those things to happen.

Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Adam White

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #220 on: November 20, 2019, 03:29:55 PM »
^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

My point was more that being opposed to public handouts or the amount of public money that goes to keeping the team in Jax doesn't mean one hates the Jaguars. I am indifferent to the Jags, but think them staying in Jax would be a good thing. However, I think they shouldn't get any (more) public money to do so. If they were entirely self-sufficient and stayed in Jax, that would be great.

Of course, as I no longer live in Jax my opinion is pretty much worthless.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

FlaBoy

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #221 on: November 20, 2019, 04:19:22 PM »
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

Where?

Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #222 on: November 20, 2019, 05:15:55 PM »
Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

Where?

Lol, for real.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

I-10east

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2019, 05:42:14 PM »
I'll say that Baltimore is doing okay. The word "thriving" is a bit much; maybe the Inner Harbor, but not so much the city (metro growing at +3.41). Bmore is loaded with ultra-corruption (former mayor just got indicted, and other recent past mayors involved in corruption cases). Poverty up the ass, a lot of racial hostility (Freddie Gray case etc), renegade motorcycle and ATV riders driving recklessly in packs (for the 'culture'), tons of empty/neglected rowhouses, and an obvious high crime rate.

Now for Baltimore's good things; most seem to agree that the Inner Harbor is the place to be in Bmore. Crab cakes are delicious. Affluent areas in the metro (most being out of city limits). The Raven fans really show up for that team (impressive road travellers also). Bmore fans show why there shouldn't have ever been a NFL football hiatus in that city.   

 

Adam White

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Re: Jaguars New Stadium?
« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2019, 05:51:14 PM »
I'll say that Baltimore is doing okay. The word "thriving" is a bit much; maybe the Inner Harbor, but not so much the city (metro growing at +3.41). Bmore is loaded with ultra-corruption (former mayor just got indicted, and other recent past mayors involved in corruption cases). Poverty up the ass, a lot of racial hostility (Freddie Gray case etc), renegade motorcycle and ATV riders driving recklessly in packs (for the 'culture'), tons of empty/neglected rowhouses, and an obvious high crime rate.

Now for Baltimore's good things; most seem to agree that the Inner Harbor is the place to be in Bmore. Crab cakes are delicious. Affluent areas in the metro (most being out of city limits). The Raven fans really show up for that team (impressive road travellers also). Bmore fans show why there shouldn't have ever been a NFL football hiatus in that city.

I'm an Orioles fan, but I'd not want to live in Baltimore. It may have a lot of great things and it might not be the crime hotspot it used to be - but it's still a bit too "real" for my taste!
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”