Author Topic: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.  (Read 2517 times)

sanmarcomatt

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
Healthcare is in need of major reform in the US. The fact that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the wealthiest nation on earth is crazy. Its a hard question with no easy answers. 


And yet, people in large numbers do nothing about things they can largely control to lower risks and potential costs to themselves( ignore nutrition,exercise, and financial planning) and are generally either apathetic or ignorant when it comes to elections and how our government actual functions.
However, Americans are great at complaining,excuses and blaming others. So we have that going for us.

You're doing a great job of complaining, blaming, and making excuses for the current situation yourself ;). Planning has nothing to do with getting a dire illness when young, unemployed etc.



lifestyle choices don't affect your risk of illness or disease? And financial planning can't help with medical costs? I think we will agree to disagree on those points.

Adam White

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2018, 03:13:30 PM »
Healthcare is in need of major reform in the US. The fact that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the wealthiest nation on earth is crazy. Its a hard question with no easy answers. 


And yet, people in large numbers do nothing about things they can largely control to lower risks and potential costs to themselves( ignore nutrition,exercise, and financial planning) and are generally either apathetic or ignorant when it comes to elections and how our government actual functions.
However, Americans are great at complaining,excuses and blaming others. So we have that going for us.

You're doing a great job of complaining, blaming, and making excuses for the current situation yourself ;). Planning has nothing to do with getting a dire illness when young, unemployed etc.



lifestyle choices don't affect your risk of illness or disease? And financial planning can't help with medical costs? I think we will agree to disagree on those points.

Lifestyle choices can affect your risk or illness or disease. But that doesn't mean you will get a particular illness or disease. Or that a person who lives like a monk won't get lung cancer or something.

Financial planning can help with medical costs - assuming you're lucky enough to earn enough to be able to make meaningful plans.
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DrQue

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 04:15:05 PM »
Healthcare is in need of major reform in the US. The fact that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the wealthiest nation on earth is crazy. Its a hard question with no easy answers. 


And yet, people in large numbers do nothing about things they can largely control to lower risks and potential costs to themselves( ignore nutrition,exercise, and financial planning) and are generally either apathetic or ignorant when it comes to elections and how our government actual functions.
However, Americans are great at complaining,excuses and blaming others. So we have that going for us.

You're doing a great job of complaining, blaming, and making excuses for the current situation yourself ;). Planning has nothing to do with getting a dire illness when young, unemployed etc.



lifestyle choices don't affect your risk of illness or disease? And financial planning can't help with medical costs? I think we will agree to disagree on those points.

I think we can agree that lifestyle and planning are very important. However, even incredibly healthy people contract debilitating diseases or just have plain bad luck. A huge portion of our society (young, low income etc.) also lack the financial means to weather a major storm, regardless of their planning skills.

When I see working class single mothers doing everything they can to raise good children get ravished by a medical bill, it makes me think something is wrong with the system.

I-10east

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 04:49:17 PM »
Don't bother trying to explain socialism anything that is labeled by the right as a give away is socialism..so one more time for the dense:

"a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

Ooh, such a sugarcoated leftist definition....Where did you get that, from leftist academia? Socialism is utopian nonsense. There's a difference from PUBLIC SERVICES to a full blown socialist government...Alot of Latin America runs on socialism (ie Venezuela, Nicaragua etc) How is it working out for them, or any other country in the world?  This is my definition...

Quote
Socialism has its roots in visions of imaginary ideal societies, from thinkers who drew up elaborated designs and concepts for creating what they considered a more equal society, along collectivist lines or abolished private property; the primarily ideas came from British and French thinkers like Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Louis Blanc, and Robert Owen preceded by Thomas More, Tommaso Campanella, and Jean Meslier.

One of the atheist Karl Marx's titles is the father of socialism. Currently it is considered a leftist economic system which advocates state ownership or direct control of the major means of production and distribution of goods and services.

Socialism is the economic system imposed by Communism, but another one of the most well known political parties of the 20th century that was socialistic was the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi Party), headed by the fascist, but anti-communist Adolf Hitler. Often socialism is a matter of degree and numerous economies in the world are very socialistic such as European countries (many of which are facing financial difficulties due to over taxation and excessive spending).

sanmarcomatt

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 04:52:10 PM »

I think we can agree that lifestyle and planning are very important. However, even incredibly healthy people contract debilitating diseases or just have plain bad luck. A huge portion of our society (young, low income etc.) also lack the financial means to weather a major storm, regardless of their planning skills.

When I see working class single mothers doing everything they can to raise good children get ravished by a medical bill, it makes me think something is wrong with the system.


Ok, I think we agree more than not but I just get a little disgusted when I think of all the resources that are going toward preventable (based upon lifestyle only) medical issues that could otherwise be directed elsewhere. The numbers are staggering.
I will get off my soapbox now.


Adam White

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 05:03:51 PM »
Don't bother trying to explain socialism anything that is labeled by the right as a give away is socialism..so one more time for the dense:

"a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

Ooh, such a sugarcoated leftist definition....Where did you get that, from leftist academia? Socialism is utopian nonsense. There's a difference from PUBLIC SERVICES to a full blown socialist government...Alot of Latin America runs on socialism (ie Venezuela, Nicaragua etc) How is it working out for them, or any other country in the world?  This is my definition...

Quote
Socialism has its roots in visions of imaginary ideal societies, from thinkers who drew up elaborated designs and concepts for creating what they considered a more equal society, along collectivist lines or abolished private property; the primarily ideas came from British and French thinkers like Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Louis Blanc, and Robert Owen preceded by Thomas More, Tommaso Campanella, and Jean Meslier.

One of the atheist Karl Marx's titles is the father of socialism. Currently it is considered a leftist economic system which advocates state ownership or direct control of the major means of production and distribution of goods and services.

Socialism is the economic system imposed by Communism, but another one of the most well known political parties of the 20th century that was socialistic was the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi Party), headed by the fascist, but anti-communist Adolf Hitler. Often socialism is a matter of degree and numerous economies in the world are very socialistic such as European countries (many of which are facing financial difficulties due to over taxation and excessive spending).

And universal health coverage is a public service.

As far as your definition of socialism goes, you grabbed that from Conservapedia (and didn't cite it). If you want to be taken seriously, you'll need to get better sources. Andrew Schlafly is batshit crazy. (Seriously - the guy is all about conspiracy theories and is a religious nutter).

There is a difference between a socialist party (or self-proclaimed socialist party) in government and a socialist country. Some would argue that Nicaragua has had socialists in power at various times over the past few decades (and Venezuela's current ruling party describes itself as socialist). But neither Nicaragua or Venezuela are socialist countries, as they are still operating with capitalist ecomonies.

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I-10east

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 05:19:39 PM »
There is a difference between a socialist party (or self-proclaimed socialist party) in government and a socialist country. Some would argue that Nicaragua has had socialists in power at various times over the past few decades (and Venezuela's current ruling party describes itself as socialist). But neither Nicaragua or Venezuela are socialist countries, as they are still operating with capitalist economies.

I'm glad that you said "SOME might say that Venezuela and Nicaragua aren't socialist" They are definitely in the minority, because they are as socialist as it comes... As for the leftists so called "European version of great socialism" a country like Denmark isn't socialist, but runs on "The Nordic model" (market economy). Even the Danish prime minister has to correct US leftists about his country.

Here are the great socialist utopias of the world (past and present)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states


Adam White

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2018, 05:52:48 PM »
There is a difference between a socialist party (or self-proclaimed socialist party) in government and a socialist country. Some would argue that Nicaragua has had socialists in power at various times over the past few decades (and Venezuela's current ruling party describes itself as socialist). But neither Nicaragua or Venezuela are socialist countries, as they are still operating with capitalist economies.

I'm glad that you said "SOME might say that Venezuela and Nicaragua aren't socialist" They are definitely in the minority, because they are as socialist as it comes... As for the leftists so called "European version of great socialism" a country like Denmark isn't socialist, but runs on "The Nordic model" (market economy). Even the Danish prime minister has to correct US leftists about his country.

Here are the great socialist utopias of the world (past and present)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

That's NOT what I said - try to be a *bit* more clever and not misquote me directly underneath where my actual words are posted. I said this:

Some would argue that Nicaragua has had socialists in power at various times over the past few decades (and Venezuela's current ruling party describes itself as socialist).

And that's true - the ruling parties of both countries describe themselves as 'socialist' parties. But just because there are self-descrinbed socialist parties in power doesn't automatically make the country socialist. Take San Marino for example - it was governed by the Communist Party for many years (during the height of the Cold War), but would never have been considered a communist country. France is another example - it has had socialist governments in power for decades and is a G8/G7 country.

The economies of Nicaragua and Venezuela are capitalist. There are plenty of reasons why Nicaragua is in the shape it is, but Venezuela's current woes are likely due to terrible governance and poor oil prices, more than anything else.

Edit: I find it funny that your link to an article on 'socialist' countries doesn't even list Nicaragua or Venezuela as socialist countries. It actually reinforces what I posted.

You're right - the Nordic Model is capitalist - and the ruling parties of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland are not socialist parties and do not espouse socialism. That's one of the big problems I have with Bernie Sanders - he calls himself a 'democratic socialist' when he is nothing of the sort. He's a social democrat. And a not particularly left wing one at that.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:57:18 PM by Adam White »
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JeffreyS

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 06:47:38 PM »
One guy who position on health care isn't clear vs another guy saying freebies for everybody with socialism! The latter candidate scares the shit of me 100 percent more; socialism in Florida! If he wins, get ready to be the Cali of the East Coast government-wise....Get ready to have astronomical taxes, an open borders state, and becoming a state income tax state....



The Cali of the east coast? Do you mean our property values explode and a giant budget surplus?

Seriously Gillum is not for a state income tax. His Medicare for all position he states would have to be national or with a large conglomeration of stars. His immediate plan would be to accept the federal Medicaid funds to alleviate some of the bills Floridians are being taxed for. 
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I-10east

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 07:22:00 PM »
As far as your definition of socialism goes, you grabbed that from Conservapedia (and didn't cite it). If you want to be taken seriously, you'll need to get better sources. Andrew Schlafly is batshit crazy. (Seriously - the guy is all about conspiracy theories and is a religious nutter).

Yup, it was a conservapedia posting. I actually agree with you, Schlafly is way out there on the super right wing evangelical conservative side. I just happen to think that his take on socialism is very fitting. You can actually agree with someone on a point, and not emulate their entire lifestyle you know.

The one dimensionality is that EVERYTHING a person does is evil; just like leftists saying Trump is a racist buffoon that cant do anything right, even though unemployment for blacks, Hispanics, and Asians are at an all time low, and we got better trade negotiations with countries like Canada, Mexico, and South Korea.

I thought that most the Obama presidency was a joke and racial division was at an all time high in my lifetime under his national divisiveness (and I voted for him twice) but for me to say "everything he did was a failure" wouldn't be honest. The one dimensionality propaganda saying that everyone you disagree with is a 'worthless evil person that gets nothing wrong" is complete BS.     
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 07:54:54 PM by I-10east »

I-10east

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 07:37:37 PM »
The Cali of the east coast? Do you mean our property values explode and a giant budget surplus?

Seriously Gillum is not for a state income tax. His Medicare for all position he states would have to be national or with a large conglomeration of stars. His immediate plan would be to accept the federal Medicaid funds to alleviate some of the bills Floridians are being taxed for. 

Yup, Cali has a surplus and is wealthy due mainly to Hollywood, Silicon Valley, and agriculture. What about their middle class? Yeah they are relocating to more sane political states like TX, AZ, and even OR (which is liberal, but not Cali crazy liberal yet). What about the endless welcomed migration from the Third World? What about the sprawling urban tent cities? Yeah, I like FL the way it is compared to some socialist infiltration.

Just because we (me and Gillum) both have melanin in our skins, I'm not gonna be some tribalistic person and vote against my values. Any socialist (and basically any Democrat these days, because they are so so leftist) is a nogo for me. The Dems used to actually be votable to centrists, now their wedge issue mania, and screaming protesters with pink hats, and Antifa have caused many to abandon the Dems. Look at #walkaway? Alot of people.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 07:56:05 PM by I-10east »

I-10east

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 08:24:10 PM »
But neither Nicaragua or Venezuela are socialist countries, as they are still operating with capitalist economies.

That's what I was responding to.

Edit: I find it funny that your link to an article on 'socialist' countries doesn't even list Nicaragua or Venezuela as socialist countries. It actually reinforces what I posted.

Look again! Those two countries are listed under the "Multi-party states with governing Socialist Parties" section. I dunno what else they gotta do for you to believe those countries are socialist (obvious failures aside). Some of the party titles even have "socialist" in the name.  It's funny that some leftist people and publications were praising Venezuela as some model that the US should follow, when things were better with Chavez handing out microwaves. Maduro just continued Chavez's policies after his death.

Socialism always start off good, but then comes reality and then the money runs out. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 08:32:29 PM by I-10east »

Adam White

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2018, 01:59:27 AM »
But neither Nicaragua or Venezuela are socialist countries, as they are still operating with capitalist economies.

That's what I was responding to.

Edit: I find it funny that your link to an article on 'socialist' countries doesn't even list Nicaragua or Venezuela as socialist countries. It actually reinforces what I posted.

Look again! Those two countries are listed under the "Multi-party states with governing Socialist Parties" section. I dunno what else they gotta do for you to believe those countries are socialist (obvious failures aside). Some of the party titles even have "socialist" in the name.  It's funny that some leftist people and publications were praising Venezuela as some model that the US should follow, when things were better with Chavez handing out microwaves. Maduro just continued Chavez's policies after his death.

Socialism always start off good, but then comes reality and then the money runs out. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

Dude, it's like you're not even reading my posts. I said:

Quote
And that's true - the ruling parties of both countries describe themselves as 'socialist' parties. But just because there are self-descrinbed socialist parties in power doesn't automatically make the country socialist. Take San Marino for example - it was governed by the Communist Party for many years (during the height of the Cold War), but would never have been considered a communist country. France is another example - it has had socialist governments in power for decades and is a G8/G7 country.

The economies of Nicaragua and Venezuela are capitalist. There are plenty of reasons why Nicaragua is in the shape it is, but Venezuela's current woes are likely due to terrible governance and poor oil prices, more than anything else.

Which is why I said it was funny that your link supported what I had been posting (more than once - this is third time). Nicaragua and Venezuela may have governing socialist parties, but the countries are not socialist, as their economies are capitalist.

Re: Conservapedia. I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the site is intentionally biased. They don't try to write neutral and factual articles - they have an open 'conservative' bias (I put it in quotes because a lot of conservatives wouldn't agree with the stuff on that site). With regard to that particular definition, it repeats the debunked 'Nazism is socialism' trope, amongst other things.

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Adam White

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2018, 02:02:06 AM »
Anyway - back to the topic. I don't think Gillum is going to use healthcare as a ploy to create the Peoples' Republic of Florida if he wins the election.
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JeffreyS

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Re: DeSantis still no position on Healthcare with 3 weeks to go.
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2018, 02:14:11 PM »
Also on topic are we going to keep letting politicians avoid giving real answers on things as big as healthcare until after or just before elections.
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