Author Topic: Hypothetical Streetcar System  (Read 912 times)

itsfantastic1

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Hypothetical Streetcar System
« on: August 10, 2018, 09:16:01 AM »
I've been itching to put something together like this for a while and I think I have a final version. Below is my dream scenario for a Jacksonville Streetcar, with each dot representing a proposed station.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZadhXhUID9laEhQrY3CKu7V0K3l-Twx9&usp=sharing


The interactive map has the other JTA planned/existing transit options which may shed more light on certain routes.

Keep in mind that even at $10mil/mi (which is extremely cheap), the system has 123 miles of track; so it would cost $1.23 billion on a good day. However, i think that by mimicking the San Diego streetcar lines & cars and using existing road arteries with dedicated lanes for the cars where possible; it can help enable development around the lines, connect the vast stretches of the city better and offer alternatives to the car to get to various parts of town through the JRTC hub.

I just wanted to share and get other people's feedback on my fake plan's merits, especially people who know what they are doing when it comes to this type of work, as well as start a discussion especially since we are thinking of spending $63 million on a U2C corridor.


BridgeTroll

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
Wow!  Thanks for sharing!  We have plenty of streetcar experts around here who will likely jump in...  8)
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Tacachale

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 10:13:36 AM »
Very cool, thanks for sharing!
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 04:05:00 PM »
Cool map. The costs per mile would be a lot higher if streetcar were the single mode of transit for every corridor. Streetcars tend to work better as urban circulators while some corridors (like to Baldwin) would be better off as commuter rail or express bus depending on ridership projections and opportunities to acquire or share existing track with freight.
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Kerry

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 05:58:08 AM »
$1.23 billion?  That is cheaper than the Mathews Bridge replacement.  Wonder which of the two will be easier to get funding for.
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 07:20:47 AM »
Mathews. It's cheaper and will carry more people and freight. Realistically, it's impossible to build that type of streetcar system for that low of a price. Without existing infrastructure to take advantage of, you're closer to $40 to $50 million a mile than $10 million.
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »
Keep in mind that San Diego, while it dubs itself the San Diego Trolley System, is a light rail system.


Trolleys systems these days, like the ones built recently in Cincinnati and Milwaukee, cost over $50million per mile.  Furthermore, they're only a few miles in length because they're not designed for the higher speeds required for longer routes.

The routes you're showing would for the most part need to be light rail.   Recently light rail projects, like those in Denver or the proposed Southwest Light Rail line in MPLS have cost $100 million to $150 million per mile.

itsfantastic1

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 01:14:47 PM »
Thanks all,

I guess I fell for the San Diego name treatment (street car) rather than what system actually would best be served by (light rail).



However, I wonder what makes the difference in cost between street car and light rail per mile so different? Is it safety standards for operating at faster speeds, land acquisition for generally longer lines or just general labor costs?

I really think that by opening up some areas of town that are exclusively served by car, general mobility of the residents will increase, traffic will decrease and development and quality of life will improve, especially for the lower income residents. Additionally expanding the system to key destinations (as I've tried to do) will make choice riders more likely to support it as well.

thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 02:04:28 PM »
Streetcar systems can be just as expensive as LRT, depending on the context, ROW acquisition, cost of rolling stock, the availability of existing track infrastructure, grade separation, roadway reconstruction, streetscaping, station/stop design, etc. Many of the lower end tourist streetcar systems have traditionally come in super cheap because those communities have found opportunities to cut costs down in these areas. However, the same thing goes for some of the cheaper LRT systems. For example, both San Diego and St. Louis were able to get LRT starters at a reduced cost because they took advantage of existing freight rail corridors. On the other hand, Seattle's LRT system cost a bunch because much of it is grade separated. The capital cost and O&M of LRT's rolling stock (think Phoenix or Houston's LRT) verses buying a used or replica trolley for a tourist train (think Tampa, El Paso or Little Rock's streetcar systems) are also night and day.

Houston Metro LRT


Tampa TECO Streetcar
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:12:00 PM by thelakelander »
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 02:08:28 PM »
Other than that, they can both run on the same tracks! There's San Diego's Trolley (LRT) and streetcar in downtown:





« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:10:57 PM by thelakelander »
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