Author Topic: Hypothetical Streetcar System  (Read 1316 times)

itsfantastic1

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Hypothetical Streetcar System
« on: August 10, 2018, 09:16:01 AM »
I've been itching to put something together like this for a while and I think I have a final version. Below is my dream scenario for a Jacksonville Streetcar, with each dot representing a proposed station.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZadhXhUID9laEhQrY3CKu7V0K3l-Twx9&usp=sharing


The interactive map has the other JTA planned/existing transit options which may shed more light on certain routes.

Keep in mind that even at $10mil/mi (which is extremely cheap), the system has 123 miles of track; so it would cost $1.23 billion on a good day. However, i think that by mimicking the San Diego streetcar lines & cars and using existing road arteries with dedicated lanes for the cars where possible; it can help enable development around the lines, connect the vast stretches of the city better and offer alternatives to the car to get to various parts of town through the JRTC hub.

I just wanted to share and get other people's feedback on my fake plan's merits, especially people who know what they are doing when it comes to this type of work, as well as start a discussion especially since we are thinking of spending $63 million on a U2C corridor.


BridgeTroll

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
Wow!  Thanks for sharing!  We have plenty of streetcar experts around here who will likely jump in...  8)
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Tacachale

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 10:13:36 AM »
Very cool, thanks for sharing!
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 04:05:00 PM »
Cool map. The costs per mile would be a lot higher if streetcar were the single mode of transit for every corridor. Streetcars tend to work better as urban circulators while some corridors (like to Baldwin) would be better off as commuter rail or express bus depending on ridership projections and opportunities to acquire or share existing track with freight.
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Kerry

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 05:58:08 AM »
$1.23 billion?  That is cheaper than the Mathews Bridge replacement.  Wonder which of the two will be easier to get funding for.
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 07:20:47 AM »
Mathews. It's cheaper and will carry more people and freight. Realistically, it's impossible to build that type of streetcar system for that low of a price. Without existing infrastructure to take advantage of, you're closer to $40 to $50 million a mile than $10 million.
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »
Keep in mind that San Diego, while it dubs itself the San Diego Trolley System, is a light rail system.


Trolleys systems these days, like the ones built recently in Cincinnati and Milwaukee, cost over $50million per mile.  Furthermore, they're only a few miles in length because they're not designed for the higher speeds required for longer routes.

The routes you're showing would for the most part need to be light rail.   Recently light rail projects, like those in Denver or the proposed Southwest Light Rail line in MPLS have cost $100 million to $150 million per mile.

itsfantastic1

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 01:14:47 PM »
Thanks all,

I guess I fell for the San Diego name treatment (street car) rather than what system actually would best be served by (light rail).



However, I wonder what makes the difference in cost between street car and light rail per mile so different? Is it safety standards for operating at faster speeds, land acquisition for generally longer lines or just general labor costs?

I really think that by opening up some areas of town that are exclusively served by car, general mobility of the residents will increase, traffic will decrease and development and quality of life will improve, especially for the lower income residents. Additionally expanding the system to key destinations (as I've tried to do) will make choice riders more likely to support it as well.

thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 02:04:28 PM »
Streetcar systems can be just as expensive as LRT, depending on the context, ROW acquisition, cost of rolling stock, the availability of existing track infrastructure, grade separation, roadway reconstruction, streetscaping, station/stop design, etc. Many of the lower end tourist streetcar systems have traditionally come in super cheap because those communities have found opportunities to cut costs down in these areas. However, the same thing goes for some of the cheaper LRT systems. For example, both San Diego and St. Louis were able to get LRT starters at a reduced cost because they took advantage of existing freight rail corridors. On the other hand, Seattle's LRT system cost a bunch because much of it is grade separated. The capital cost and O&M of LRT's rolling stock (think Phoenix or Houston's LRT) verses buying a used or replica trolley for a tourist train (think Tampa, El Paso or Little Rock's streetcar systems) are also night and day.

Houston Metro LRT


Tampa TECO Streetcar
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:12:00 PM by thelakelander »
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thelakelander

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 02:08:28 PM »
Other than that, they can both run on the same tracks! There's San Diego's Trolley (LRT) and streetcar in downtown:





« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:10:57 PM by thelakelander »
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2018, 04:26:29 PM »
I really think that by opening up some areas of town that are exclusively served by car, general mobility of the residents will increase, traffic will decrease and development and quality of life will improve, especially for the lower income residents. Additionally expanding the system to key destinations (as I've tried to do) will make choice riders more likely to support it as well.

Do you have an example of an area of town that you see as exclusively served by cars? 

Ocklawaha

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2018, 04:58:36 PM »
I've been itching to put something together like this for a while and I think I have a final version. Below is my dream scenario for a Jacksonville Streetcar, with each dot representing a proposed station.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZadhXhUID9laEhQrY3CKu7V0K3l-Twx9&usp=sharing


Greetings itsfantastic1 from the original Streetcar Daddy in Jacksonville...

I will offer a critique from to Conductors Seat:

First I would consider this a far-reaching, long range build out rather than a starter system. What you are trying to describe is technically called 'RAPID STREETCAR'. A streetcar can be made to easily attain 35-45 mph, with acceleration and braking that trumps any bus ever conceived. Rapid Streetcar borrows from the best of both Light Rail and Streetcar at a much lower price. A system of this size would put us on par with Denver, Dallas and Portland, which probably means it will never happen.

I would cut the costs with a single river crossing, consolidating lines 21 and 26 Arlington and Beaches respectively. It may cost more to create a route over the Hart Bridge than a 'New Matthews' span which COULD BE BUILT with dedicated space for rail. A study would have to be made as to following the Arlington Expressway all the way or a jog to Town Center and on to the beaches.

Line 21 Mandarin, is better left to BRT with Monorail as far as San Marco already in place and the closeness of any future Brightline route making it redundant. However that said, we should build and upgrade such a San Jose route to International Silver Standards BRT. See: https://www.itdp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BRT-Standard-20141.pdf

Line 23 Westside, is literally on the grave of the JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY'S Ortega-Cam Johnston Line. Diverging toward Blanding and Park Street rather than the original route to 'NAS JAX.' The CSX 'A-Line' is both a wall and an opportunity. There may be some possibility of using the east side of their right-of-way as it was once all double tracked. Terminating around Kingsley in OP would be killer nice.

Line 14 Baldwin, is express bus territory at least until the far west area attains 500K residents packed densely around the tracks.

Line 15 Northwest, Another JTCO memory, I would terminate it at Edward Waters. There's always a future...

Line 18 Airport, is the biggest winner here... BUT... I'd follow Line 26 as far as Maxwell House or Stadium, then hook back onto the old F&J RR right-of-way and shoot straight north to Airport Center Drive and hence west to JIA. Tie this into JAXPORT and purchase the entire Blount Island-Talleyrand Terminals - Grand Crossing trackage from CSX and lease back or use a short line operator for freight movements. Simply lock out the Trolley's during hours freight is moving.

The original JTCO could not be used provided any of it still sleeps beneath the pavements, but most of your core routes follow their pretty close, street digs would be like a King Tut adventure.


The red lines are the original routes and the teal lines are a proposal by the guys on this site!


El Paso's new... old Cars!


OKC did it WITHOUT Federal Funding!

SEE ALSO:
https://streetcarcoalition.org
http://cera-chicago.org
https://www.erausa.org
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-streetcars-of-floridas-first-coast-new-mj-book

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2018, 02:34:29 PM »
IIRC OKC didn't involve any federal grants or loans for their 4 1/2 mile street car line.  They did this for 2 reasons:

a) It helped keep costs lower by avoiding costly federal requirements ( aka the strings attached to the money )
b) They have oodles of cash to burn.   OK's economy has been doing very well and revenues have seen stronger growth than most of the country.


Even at that they did use federal funds for some of the pieces they needed to build their 4 1/2 mile trolley.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Hypothetical Streetcar System
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 01:15:19 PM »
Quote
Oklahoma City Streetcar
Oklahoma City. A youthful city with a reverent and confident sense of self, a town with deep roots in the midst of a vibrant rebirth for a brave new future.

As part of that renewal, in 2009 Oklahoma City residents boldly voted to self-fund a 4.86 mile modern streetcar system. The system will become one of EMBARK's family of transit services, and will include 22 stops linking major employers, businesses, attractions and residences in the downtown area.

This is a transformative moment for public transit in Oklahoma City. The launch is tentatively set for Friday, December 14, 2018.

Fast Facts:

The official name is the Oklahoma City Streetcar and can be abbreviated as OKC Streetcar.
There will be seven streetcars. Each will hold approximately 104 people.
The colors and design will be painted on the streetcars. EMBARK has named the prominent color palettes for each streetcar: Bermuda green, Clear Sky blue and Redbud. There will be two Bermuda Green streetcars, two Clear Sky blue and three Redbud.
The streetcars are being built in the USA by Brookville Equipment Corp. of Pennsylvania
Oklahoma City residents have self-funded the construction of the $135 million system through the 2009 MAPS3 city-wide 1-cent sales tax.

If Federal Funds were used, they were NOT for OKC STREETCAR, but for affiliated roadway projects.  The use of Federal $$ completely changes the rules for buildout.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 01:18:13 PM by Ocklawaha »