Author Topic: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown  (Read 4789 times)

Captain Zissou

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2018, 10:48:05 AM »
The mistake we're making locally is planning in a vacuum.  We're so blown away be gadgets, toys and trying to be innovative, to the point that we forget, overlook or downplay the basics. Simply, before we debate over technology and what type of mode best serves the city, can we please decide what type of city we truly want to be and then craft our mobility and land use decisions to incrementally lead to that vision? There is no one-size fits all solution, so there will be areas where fixed transit, buses and even AVs make sense. There will also be other areas where none of them are a good fit. Unfortunately, it seems like everyone from JTA and COJ to the Jags are doing their own thing and none of the parts really effectively go together. With that said, I know for a fact representatives from all of agencies do communicate with each other but the end products clearly don't appear to be well aligned.

How do we start this sort of regional planning and ACTUAL implementation?  The amount of money we waste on scattershot plans and projects that fail to reach their potential has to be in the tens of millions annually, but is it the mayor who is responsible for the lack of cohesion?  I also lump the maintenance issue into this as well.  A well executed and comprehensive plan should incorporate funding and labor for maintenance.  Other metros are able to do this on a much larger scale, so why aren't we?

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2018, 01:49:57 PM »
Streetcar isn't any more obsolete than cars, buses and planes, which also existed 90 years ago.

Age doesn't make something obselete, having something that does something more effeciently does.  That's why we still have chairs even though they're thousands of years old.

Street cars are to transportation what the physical newspaper is to news.   It's nostagically cute but not especially useful.


Streetcars were better for getting around cities that were growing from 5,000 to 50,000 people.  But other technologies have come to be much more effecient, especially as our cities have exploded in size post-WWII from 50,000 to 250,000 to millions.





As for mothballing the Skyway, that's a non-starter. We'd have to pay back millions in federal grants, nevermind the cost to demolish the infrastructure, to further deteriorate our transit network.

It's not a non-starter:
a) JTA has never shared with the public evidence that they would have to pay anything back.  This is often repeated claim that, to date, they have refused to back-up.
b) Even if A is true, special exceptions can be made under a variety of existing and future legal vehicles.

c)  JTA SPENDS $10 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR ON THE SKYWAY

If JTA did nothing more than stop running the Skyway today, they'd have an extra $10M to do all sorts of things including paying off the pro-rated federal grants that they claim they can't walk away from.

$10 million dollars a year of an $100 million dollars is a whole hell of a lot of things that JTA could do.

Tacachale

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2018, 03:21:22 PM »
Streetcar isn't any more obsolete than cars, buses and planes, which also existed 90 years ago.

Age doesn't make something obselete, having something that does something more effeciently does.  That's why we still have chairs even though they're thousands of years old.

Street cars are to transportation what the physical newspaper is to news.   It's nostagically cute but not especially useful.


You’d be correct if those assumptions were accurate. Again, there are plenty of cities and environments where streetcars and similar technologies continue to work well. There are also things that fixed rail can do that other modes can’t, like sparking TOD.


Streetcars were better for getting around cities that were growing from 5,000 to 50,000 people.  But other technologies have come to be much more effecient, especially as our cities have exploded in size post-WWII from 50,000 to 250,000 to millions.





As for mothballing the Skyway, that's a non-starter. We'd have to pay back millions in federal grants, nevermind the cost to demolish the infrastructure, to further deteriorate our transit network.

It's not a non-starter:
a) JTA has never shared with the public evidence that they would have to pay anything back.  This is often repeated claim that, to date, they have refused to back-up.
b) Even if A is true, special exceptions can be made under a variety of existing and future legal vehicles.

c)  JTA SPENDS $10 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR ON THE SKYWAY

If JTA did nothing more than stop running the Skyway today, they'd have an extra $10M to do all sorts of things including paying off the pro-rated federal grants that they claim they can't walk away from.

$10 million dollars a year of an $100 million dollars is a whole hell of a lot of things that JTA could do.

I’m pretty sure that evidence has been published before. At any rate, Iexpect that if JTA could actually get out of paying back the grants on the Skyway, it would’ve been figured out by now. I’ve never heard the $10 million a year figure before. It might be compelling, if JTA’s goal is only to save money by cutting service. Replacing it something else would also cost money. Which is why the conversation should be about finding and meeting actual need Downtown, rather than picking an unproven technology and working backward, or shutting the entire service down with no plan to replace it.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2018, 04:20:26 PM »
I think I know what bl8jaxnative's idea is!

Replace the Skyway system with not a new public transit system, but with… HIGHWAYS!

We're already tearing down the Hart bridges by Bay Street, so why not use the concrete to pave new elevated roads, right through downtown! We'll save millions! Suburbanites will flock to downtown with the amazing elevated highway system! Who needs a streetcar when you can use your car!

This message is sponsored by Rick Scott.


thelakelander

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 12:26:37 PM »
Hmm.....
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Steve

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2018, 01:03:44 PM »
I can’t reliably get my yard waste picked up, JTA and COJ arent exactly known for a great working relationship, and ALL of these agencies are supposed to work together!?

KenFSU

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 02:11:49 PM »
I've watched this video three times, and I'm still not entirely sure what they're proposing.

A fleet of 15 clown cars, I get that.

An app to hail said clown cars, I get that.

They start to lose me though when they talk about solar sidewalks, and pedestrian sensors, and flood sensors, and light-up lanes, and open-source software. Then they really lose me when they start talking about tracking flight information and TSA queues... on Bay Street... to spur development (?).

10-1 odds the blockchain is involved.

I hope we get the grant, but it just kind of feels like a bunch of unnecessary gimmicks thrown on top of an actual need - better public transit.


thelakelander

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 02:39:52 PM »
A little too much on technology and too little on getting the basics right.

From the video, it appears we've eliminated dedicated lanes altogether (seriously that sucks for transit and the type of technology doesn't matter) and Bay is no longer reversible. Really it comes across as a technology oriented streetscape with 15 self driving vehicles thrown in.

Does that handle future projected transit demand? Does this include retrofitting the entire existing Skyway system? Are we integrating land use policy to spur TOD throughout the U2C system? Does promotion of single/limited occupancy vehicles mixed with regular traffic increase congestion? I have lots of questions but they aren't on solar sidewalks, flood sensors, light-up lanes and open-source software. They're focused around how we're providing time tested proven transit basics.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:41:32 PM by thelakelander »
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Steve

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 03:00:55 PM »
10-1 odds the blockchain is involved.

I work in IT. I’m on a plane that is relatively quiet and I just laughed so loud I’m pretty sure the flight crew heard me. Well Played, sir.

Kerry

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2018, 07:22:35 PM »
The mistake we're making locally is planning in a vacuum.  We're so blown away be gadgets, toys and trying to be innovative, to the point that we forget, overlook or downplay the basics. Simply, before we debate over technology and what type of mode best serves the city, can we please decide what type of city we truly want to be and then craft our mobility and land use decisions to incrementally lead to that vision? There is no one-size fits all solution, so there will be areas where fixed transit, buses and even AVs make sense. There will also be other areas where none of them are a good fit. Unfortunately, it seems like everyone from JTA and COJ to the Jags are doing their own thing and none of the parts really effectively go together. With that said, I know for a fact representatives from all of agencies do communicate with each other but the end products clearly don't appear to be well aligned.

How do we start this sort of regional planning and ACTUAL implementation?  The amount of money we waste on scattershot plans and projects that fail to reach their potential has to be in the tens of millions annually, but is it the mayor who is responsible for the lack of cohesion?  I also lump the maintenance issue into this as well.  A well executed and comprehensive plan should incorporate funding and labor for maintenance.  Other metros are able to do this on a much larger scale, so why aren't we?

Some of you are starting to sound like me.  Any one interested in a community activist group aimed and bring walkable urbanism to Jax let me know.  If I have to live here (and I do), I might as well do what I can to make it some place I would at least like to live.
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KenFSU

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 07:53:19 PM »
10-1 odds the blockchain is involved.

I work in IT. I’m on a plane that is relatively quiet and I just laughed so loud I’m pretty sure the flight crew heard me. Well Played, sir.

Thanks Steve :D

Love me a good blockchain joke!!!

Kerry

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2018, 08:11:32 AM »
Holy crap!  I just watched that video.  How can this many people be so bad at their job?  We don't need pedestrian sensors at every intersection.  Just activate the walk sign every time, and preferably 5 seconds BEFORE the light turns green for cars.
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 08:30:54 AM »
^Yes, there's some technology overload. We could stick four-way stops signs at every intersection on Bay east of Ocean and accomplish more from a pedestrian safety and traffic calming perspective. Wouldn't be as cool though and definitely wouldn't win any grants.
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Kerry

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Re: JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 08:44:46 AM »
As a taxpayer, I hope we don't get the grant because this is a monumental waste of money.  Who do I call to oppose the grant request?
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