Author Topic: Retail garage project proposed for downtown  (Read 8272 times)

FlaBoy

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 11:59:46 AM »
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.

Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.

I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Unfortunately, for some stange reason the developer was talked out of adding retail at Main and Forsyth by the DIA. What was told to me a while back was there was a concern about there being too much car traffic on Main. In all of my 16 years of architecture, commercial real estate development and planning experience, high vehicle counts are a great thing for commercial uses. Anyway, it doesn't appear it can be converted at a later date because the garage ramp is on that side. Lost opportunity to have to good corners on both sides and something that would complement the retail in 11 East and the old Woolworths building.

That's ridiculous, especially with the Perdue and 11E on the opposite corners. The remainder of Forsyth cannot be abandoned like this. In the worst, that space sits empty for a few years until these projects are all off the ground. Someone will take a shot with a restaurant or something service based if Indigo, Courtyard/Trio, Barnett, and others get off the ground within a 2 block radius. You also really want as much synergy as possible going down Forsyth, Adams, and Bay towards the Elbow area (hopefully Convention Center).

FlaBoy

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 12:01:42 PM »
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous  metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered.  Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.

True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.

100% agree. We just seem to be one of the only places in 2018 building retail-less garages all over the place.

Who should we email and call?

thelakelander

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 12:04:10 PM »
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous  metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered.  Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.

True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
I think most would agree that the garage is necessary. However, Steve does make a good point in questioning if it should be designed to allow for more retail on the Forsyth and Main Street sides. If not, once it's built, that potential is forever lost.
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CityLife

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 01:27:02 PM »
Lake, any idea if they are providing enough structural support for future vertical expansion? Or at least providing a design that can be easily reinforced?

Lostwave

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 01:29:16 PM »
Terrible miss.  If you ever walk around St. Pete, a ton of the most lively retail (restaurant/bar) areas are built on the ground floor of parking garages.  You don't even notice it from the street level.  Kills 2 birds with one stone.

But then a block away you have a few Parking garages with no street level retail, and those blocks are completely dead.  Forsyth and Laura is right in the middle of our downtown and this will be a huge loss that cannot be undone.

This:
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7721326,-82.6355134,3a,75y,34.2h,81.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFkgtm0f09d-h6KTojwevgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
vs this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7703291,-82.6353086,3a,75y,90.02h,95.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXbgS8dwdovc14Ty9fu62Sw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Tacachale

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 01:37:21 PM »
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous  metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered.  Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.

True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
I think most would agree that the garage is necessary. However, Steve does make a good point in questioning if it should be designed to allow for more retail on the Forsyth and Main Street sides. If not, once it's built, that potential is forever lost.

That would be a plus, is there a chance that anything can be done? And what reasoning did the DIA have for not wanting retail on Main Street?
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thelakelander

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 01:58:45 PM »
A concern about the mix of pedestrians and high traffic volumes. Consider this second hand information. However, the DDRB application states the DIA's preference for retail facing Laura because that's the desired corridor for street level retail. Either way, both are weak. High AADT is a major plus for retail and good design can alleviate ped/auto conflict. In addition, Laura isn't any less of a retail corridor or focus, if retail spaces are also along streets like Adams, Forsyth, etc.
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BenderRodriguez

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 03:11:18 PM »
Oh lord...

So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?

Steve

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 03:32:46 PM »
Oh lord...

So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?

Well, in this case I don't have an issue with the parking per se as it activates 4 historic buildings. I just think the garage is underwhelming.

acme54321

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 03:53:06 PM »
Between this and the shitty 2 story garage to the east that's two full blocks of parking deck along the south side of Forsyth.  I get that Main Street is basically a highway through downtown but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.  Personally I think Main could use to lose a land converted to parallel parking or something to slow it down.

FlaBoy

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 03:59:14 PM »
Oh lord...

So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?

Well, in this case I don't have an issue with the parking per se as it activates 4 historic buildings. I just think the garage is underwhelming.

This is actually an easy fix to an amazing project.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 10:41:45 PM »
And, we wonder why Downtown doesn't thrive?  Nearly an entire block in the heart of the City with no street level interaction.  Many cities have garages in the interior of the block so that the entire facing toward the street has "personality."  We can't even meet this halfway.  Add this patchwork approach that creates dozens of "broken blocks" and "dead zones" to the lack of large green spaces and you have a dying downtown.  As noted, these buildings aren't going away anytime soon either, so for decades Downtown will continue to twist in the wind.

Would be interesting for someone to take an aerial of Downtown and highlight how much street frontage is not street interactive vs. that which is.  Of the non-interactive, how much of that is due to construction in the last 30 years that likely has a life of at least 30 years more?

By the way, its called "Main Street" for a reason.  It's supposed to be the backbone of Downtown, not an expressway to a bridge taking you away expeditiously to suburbia.  For a play on words, Downtown planners don't have a "backbone" and that's why we have this mess.

heights unknown

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 06:59:40 PM »
Another parking garage; but...I like this one; at least there's retail on the ground!
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KenFSU

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 10:43:25 AM »
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.

Steve, the DDRB agrees with you about retail along Main Street. Though they granted conceptual approval yesterday, they pushed Atkins and co. hard to make a good faith effort to include retail in the portion of the garage fronting Main Street as well.

We'll see what happens.
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Steve

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Re: Retail garage project proposed for downtown
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2018, 03:36:20 PM »
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.

Steve, the DDRB agrees with you about retail along Main Street. Though they granted conceptual approval yesterday, they pushed Atkins and co. hard to make a good faith effort to include retail in the portion of the garage fronting Main Street as well.

We'll see what happens.

Yea.....the DDRB also saw the Gate station in Brooklyn the same way....then they approved the bad design anyway.