Author Topic: JAX/JIA updates  (Read 12215 times)


ProjectMaximus

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2018, 10:24:35 AM »
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2018, 10:55:34 AM »
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/22/jacksonville-airport-soars-in-april.html

I saw that.....definitely a positive (and I don't think any of the routes that Frontier recently announced have started yet).

Snaketoz

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2018, 11:51:26 AM »
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.
I'm definitely not agitated, only posting a link to a bizjournal piece this morning.  I don't know how you have "trouble following my overall message".  My message is the message I have gotten from JAA board members in the past, and things I've heard from family members in the know.  As for the getting treated unfairly, Jacksonville has a storied past in that department.  In air routes, sports, and much more.  I think you do have trouble following my message.  You say I "complained" about Frontier's new flights.  I think you  might mean #32 where I said, "It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday."  Is that really complaining?  I have no problems with you posts.  I sometimes get a bit irritated with some on here (not you) who always seem to only post arguments to other's posts and who always want attributions to other's posts, but never give any for theirs.  If they don't like your post, they want a source.  If you give a source, they don't like the source.  PM, you are alright with me.  I've always been very interested in JAX aviation and I appreciate you starting this thread. Thanks!

ProjectMaximus

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2018, 01:55:22 PM »

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM »
I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

 - When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

 - Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

 - I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

 - I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

 - Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.

TimmyB

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2018, 01:32:12 PM »

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2018, 03:23:59 PM »

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

Other than the RJs, not too many planes with 3-2 seating other than the 100 year old MD-88/MD-90 jets that AA and Delta still has bouncing around.

(not counting widebody 767 and A330 birds that have a 2 seat section but rarely see JAX)

simms3

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM »

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.


A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

It's been so long since I've posted...

Well I've been returning to FL from Northern CA (SF) more frequently these days to be closer to family, so my opinion on flying these particular [limited] transcon routes has developed.  I now regularly fly out of 4 FL airports:

JIA (always a connection so my selection of flight options varies widely now that I focus less on building and using mileage on 1-2 airlines, Delta which I predominantly used for many years flying for work on long haul flights whereby I almost exclusively flew business class, and United, which is hubbed at SFO, now I use a combo of checking deals with those airlines to seeing what Hopper 3rd party travel app can get me, and I've used Hopper to fly to and from JIA half a dozen times in the last 1-1.5 years now)

MCO (Orlando) - often it's just cheaper and has a direct non-stop flight, one of the only non-stops to the Bay Area, namely SFO or Oakland, in the state.  Having flown into Orlando and driven up on a couple occasions, I cannot recall whether it's a United flight, which I'm sure it is by chance, or a random Delta non-stop to non-traditional non-business destination, of which SFO has a few Delta routes like so.

Tampa - I have a sibling who lives here now, and Tampa just opened its first and only non-stop to SFO, a first in the morning with limited days running United flight, which has so far been inconvenient to me, leaving me to connect from there no differently as I would from JIA.

MIA - using Hopper, sometimes, actually on multiple occasions, the fastest and essentially tied with most of the numerous other connecting options for affordability is a two-stop American connection with the first stop being in MIA, and a second in Dallas.

So just the need to fly to FL at all from the Bay Area puts me on a lot of planes and in a lot of airports.  There really isn't much of a link between Bay Area and FL to speak of.  Hardly a business link, hardly a leisure link, hardly a transplant travel need as I exhibit in exceeding rarity as demonstrated by flight options, and as big of a hub for Asia travel as SFO is, it's not big enough or perhaps unique enough with LA and even some routes being covered by NYC/Newark and Houston/Dallas falling short of producing overall better and more numerous options for people like myself.

That being said, here are my observations, almost entirely qualitative and unsubstantiated by fact-checking, just to be sure and upfront.

FL as an entire state is either not viewed by airlines as a business-class paying business-traveler oriented state or just does not produce much business travel.  Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

The only flights I have *ever* taken into FL on a plane that was of a more obvious business-class pedigree, one in which the plane was at least A320/737 size and with all the modern features I'm accustomed to on many of my flights to destinations not in FL (typically to other cities seen as business destinations) and with a flight staff with obvious years in service and an undisputably "normal" to plus-sized business class with proper business class amenities and features for 2018 service is the MIA-DFW leg I take on occasion as part of my 3-leg American Airlines option to fly into or out of Jax.

I have never personally been on a flight into or out of JIA, MCO, or TPA that struck me as a flight deemed by the airline operating it (which in two out of three of these cases is not even the main airline that has its flag painted on it, it's often operated by a regional operator), as being valuable to its business travelers.

And the only non-stop I've ever flown into and out of FL from CA, that being into Orlando, which I might add I've ironically flown "on business" in business class as well as leisurely in a way to get to Jax, is hardly a business flight even if it tried.

Screaming kids and babies, lots of overweight people and rare fliers, families trying to stick together like glue in impossible situations, and a small, limited business class with amenities like "free movies" and overly reclining seats that were acceptable for transcon flights for only brief moment as I first started making these flights in 2010/2011 before Delta, the first big airline to merge and see benefits, overhauled all of its ttanscon flights in all the destinations I was flying to, to include lay-flats in business and screens in the backs of every seat (something to this day that does not exist in the non-updated non-stops between SFO and MCO).

Now, take what you will of the meaning of all of this but I seriously question the importance of business travel to FL from any destination or it would be reflected long ago already in its planes.  I've flown routes to NYC and DC and Boston and Chicago to JIA and business class was limited in size and in normal business class features and the planes were often regionals, still. My experience with flights out of Tampa and Orlando are similar.  Only in Miami have I witnessed or seen evidence otherwise for substantial business travel.

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

These are not the Southwest versions, and I'll be honest, I never question flying or get nervous about it unless I'm flying Southwest.  Sadly that's the best option for me to fly to OC or San Diego, but the sight of obvious maintenance oversights, like peeling paint, combined with the knowledge that shorter regional routes are flown by less experienced pilots, combined with the two-punch effect of paying the same as a larger airline but receiving no amenities and greatly reduced service throws me off kilter.

I can appreciate the big old leather sink in your chair seats that some of the MD-88s or smaller regional jets offer on flights into Jax, and I'm usually passed out before the plane even takes off, as a rule, so even on transcon flights with free movies for all (those are the flights from SF to any major city NOT in FL, hehe), I don't need the movies bc I'll be out like a light.  But realistically, the comforts of air travel and the planes have GREATLY improved just in the past decade let alone my lifetime (I remember flying United 727s out of Jax as a kid to visit family in Chicago, and Continental DC-10s to Newark to board A330 SAS flights, I believe none of those planes are in commercial service anywhere anymore).

But it's clear to me that airlines don't value FL as a whole so much, and so that's why you get a limited picture of flying if flying predominately into and out of that state.  There does NOT seem to be as much business travel and business travel implies corporations paying, hence why business class tickets are for exponentially more than economy class tickets and that difference isn't only covering a glass or two of Wente Estate wine and a meal with better seating, it truly is how flights become profitable and make up the difference.

If you find airlines including nicer/bigger, updated planes on routes with substantial business classes, then the effect of having enough people/companies paying for this lifts the experience of every traveler on that route up dramatically.

When you see big business hubs and no coincidence airline hubs such as Atl, DFW, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, DC, Chicago, Denver, etc etc pulling in most of the business and leaving scraps for other cities, I think it will be a slow steady grind for airports such as JIA to start reeling in subsequent business travel that will bring noticeable upgrades to all travelers.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 04:26:58 PM by simms3 »
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jaxjags

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2018, 04:38:59 PM »
Welcome back simms. People have been asking where you had gone.

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

JaxAvondale

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2018, 06:49:23 PM »
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

ben says

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2018, 04:17:25 AM »
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

In my experience, and using the anecdotal experience of clients who fly on a daily basis, it´s exceptionally easy to get upgraded on the way to the hub - those 45 min jumper flights, given the lack of people with status in a place like JAX. That said - what´s your upgrade percentage flying not TO the hub, but ex-hub? Try getting upgraded flying ATL to Tokyo, or hell, MIA to NYC. Slim to none...fat chance at best.

In other news, I still hate the living daylight out of Delta  ;D
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ben says

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2018, 04:20:50 AM »
I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

 - When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

 - Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

 - I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

 - I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

 - Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.

In other words, they are trying to mimic the exact business model of the typical European ULCC, aka EasyJet, Vueling, RyanAir, etc (flying A320s only, stacking routes, minimizing time on the ground, hoping to god for no delays, etc).

Slightly unrelated, but I do wish the US gave consumers the same protections Europeans get for flight f-ups that are the fault of the airline. Was just delayed 2 hours flying Zurich to Barcelona on a ULCC (couldn´t pass up the 20 dollar tickets). So what happens next? We got 600 EUR in the mail!  8) I´d be more willing to fly airlines like Frontier in the States if I had these protections..

Totally unrelated: anyone fly Dubai Orlando (or reverse) on Emirates yet? I know the demand wasn´t strong enough to have the A380 fly it (bye bye shower-in-the-sky), and I think I read the flight is no longer daily, but this thing still operates right? On a 777?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 04:25:00 AM by ben says »
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Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2018, 12:00:50 PM »
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

 - If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

 - I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven’t been elite (I’m on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I’m flying to Miami or Charlotte.

Things have changed dramatically in a couple years. Delta has done an amazing job of better monitizig the FC Cabin. Big initiative of theirs....and coincidentally their profits of late have been off the charts.