Author Topic: JAX/JIA updates  (Read 16268 times)

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2018, 11:31:29 AM »
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

TimmyB

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2018, 12:57:49 PM »
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2018, 02:02:42 PM »
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.

That originated over time:

 - Northwest Airlines and KLM (The Dutch Airline - KLM stands for something ridiculously long in Dutch) had an alliance back in the late 1980's, and actually considered Schiphol Airport (Amsterdam's airport) a hub.
 - In 2004 KLM and Air France Merged
 - In 2009-ish Northwest and Delta Merged

There's also some strategy there. The four largest airports in Europe are Heathrow in London, deGaulle in Paris, Schiphol in Amsterdam, and Frankfurt. Through their Joint Venture with Air France/KLM, Delta now can consider the #2 and #3 airports in Europe as Hubs and has a significant network of flights that Delta can ticket as a 1 or 2 stop itinerary. That's pretty powerful. They also have a Joint Venture and own 49% of Virgin Atlantic (with Sir Richard's company owning 51%). While not nearly as strong as the OneWorld alliance in London (which is AA and British Airways), that's still a significant presence.

But, all of that aside you're right in your comment. There is some significant risk with Air France especially right now. There is a LOT of labor unrest with Air France that I'm sure Delta wants resolved sooner rather than later.

ProjectMaximus

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2018, 02:31:12 PM »
Right on point, Steve.

For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)

ProjectMaximus

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2018, 02:35:48 PM »
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2018, 03:18:51 PM »
For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

Obviously this all anecdotal, but if that was the pricing then that's pretty low. JAX-San Juan is about 1,290 miles flown through the air (each way). Let's say it was $50 Each Way. That works out to under $0.04/mile, WAY off what most airlines want.

As an example (and this was a VERY fast search), pricing Allegiant from Orlando to Fargo, North Dakota which is 1,510 miles through the air each way. The cheapest I can find going far out is $117 each way, or just under $0.08/mile.

For context, for each Elite Status tier of Delta's SkyMiles program, you have to qualify not only on miles (or segments) flown but also on Spend. Their Spend tiers are calculated based on $0.12/mile. In other words, if you don't average $0.12/mile you actually won't get status based on your flights in a year. With some exceptions, the only people that realistically do this are business travelers, because inevitably they book a trip either to some remote destination, they book something from time to time less than a week out, or they're booking First/Business Class.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:20:50 PM by Steve »

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »
We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)

Touche....forgot about Allegiant's route.

Snaketoz

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2018, 06:07:59 PM »
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Steve

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2018, 11:04:44 AM »
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Not sure anyone attacked. Disagreed, perhaps, but not attacked. I was curious your source because the stats that I've heard are about 50% leisure, 40% business, and 10% other (funerals, business/leisure mix, etc.). Those percentages and your numbers don't jive.

Either way, I never said that business was more people than leisure. Only that business passengers bring in more money than leisure for the large airlines.

ben says

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2018, 04:02:04 AM »
Business flyers drive the legacy carriers, period.

Source: me, after working in the travel business for the past 5 plus years.

I work with, and talk to, decision makers at airlines ranging from Delta to Korean, Emirates to United. This isn´t bragging - just facts.

Of course, every model is different. Yeah, ULCCs and LCCs tend to rely more on leisure. And yeah, the ME3 don´t really care as long as they´re expanding their route network and gaining market share.

But DL/UA/AA makes route decisions - most of the time -based on those flying in the ´front of the plane´, especially with regards to domestic routes.

You´ll ALWAYS find exceptions to the rule - why else add flights to Augusta during the Masters. And of course places like MCO are exceptions too.

I´m just speaking from experience, and using facts ´from the horse´s mouths´.....
For luxury travel agency & concierge services, reach out at jax2bcn@gmail.com - my blog about life in Barcelona can be found at www.lifeinbarcelona.com (under construction!)

chipwich

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM »
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio

Snaketoz

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2018, 09:51:57 PM »
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio
Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.

ProjectMaximus

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2018, 10:31:34 PM »
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.

JaxAvondale

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2018, 10:52:18 PM »
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio
Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.

I really hope that SW adds some additional routes soon. Unless you are flying to Atlanta, most SW flights out of Jax aren't much of a deal.

Snaketoz

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Re: JAX/JIA updates
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2018, 07:43:31 AM »
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.