Author Topic: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News  (Read 4569 times)

Murder_me_Rachel

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2017, 10:01:05 AM »
Tacachale, I don't give a flying flip who your father is. However, I'm impressed with your feelings . . . okay?

I've acknowledged your feelings, okay?

But you're dancing around the point I made. I listed six of our 12 public universities that have some acknowledged distinction. You've now vouched for UNF. That makes seven attested for.

So, back to the Top 100 and specifics: how many states do you think have at least *four* public universities in the Top 90? That's how many institutions low-tax, smallest Southern state until the 1950 census Florida has in the Top 90. If it's less than 10, Tacachale, and I can assure it is, we objectively have one of the best university systems in the freaking nation by this very subjective list.

No matter how you might feel about that fact. And, yes, all university ranking lists are incredibly subjective. But it's a poor frog that won't praise its own pond. Ask ya daddy.

Man, Ben Shapiro would be proud that his inanity has now trickled down to the plebes' talking points on message boards. 

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Adam White

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2017, 04:07:46 PM »
Tacachale, I don't give a flying flip who your father is. However, I'm impressed with your feelings . . . okay?

I've acknowledged your feelings, okay?

But you're dancing around the point I made. I listed six of our 12 public universities that have some acknowledged distinction. You've now vouched for UNF. That makes seven attested for.

So, back to the Top 100 and specifics: how many states do you think have at least *four* public universities in the Top 90? That's how many institutions low-tax, smallest Southern state until the 1950 census Florida has in the Top 90. If it's less than 10, Tacachale, and I can assure it is, we objectively have one of the best university systems in the freaking nation by this very subjective list.

No matter how you might feel about that fact. And, yes, all university ranking lists are incredibly subjective. But it's a poor frog that won't praise its own pond. Ask ya daddy.

You guys are clearly using different metrics. Your approach is to say the system is good because four of the universities in the Top 100 ranking are from the Florida system. Tachachale is saying that four universiities are good - but that doesn't reflect on the quality of the actual system. He is saying that there are attributes of successful state university systems that Florida's lacks.

Given Tachachale's experience, I would defer to him on this one. I figure he knows what he's talking about. And given his job and family connections, he'd have more reason to sugar-coat this sort of thing than critique it. Just sayin...
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remc86007

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2017, 07:18:05 PM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

FlaBoy

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2017, 09:09:20 AM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

The way money is done is not efficient but it has led to some interesting innovations and healthy competition as well by schools that has helped elevate them such as USF and UCF. In all honesty, if the system were run like the UNC System, UNF would still get no money because it would be focusing strictly on undergraduate education, which it basically does now. UNC and NC State take most of the money and the other schools fight to find a niche that is usually provided to them by their Board of Regents.

Tacachale

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2017, 10:43:39 AM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

The way money is done is not efficient but it has led to some interesting innovations and healthy competition as well by schools that has helped elevate them such as USF and UCF. In all honesty, if the system were run like the UNC System, UNF would still get no money because it would be focusing strictly on undergraduate education, which it basically does now. UNC and NC State take most of the money and the other schools fight to find a niche that is usually provided to them by their Board of Regents.

Not really accurate. For one thing, state funding has been cut year after year in Florida, which just puts more burden on the students, or results in cuts at the schools. UNF is one of the few that hasn't had to cut programs or staff, but our tuition has had to go up substantially as it has at every school.

Then there's the funding tied to the "performance-based" metrics, which are arbitrary and pretty inscrutable, and detrimental to the system. No innovation has come from the "healthy competition" as you put it, as there's no credit for doing anything differently than what's dictated by the metrics. As a result, the competition that does arise is in the schools doing whatever the more successful schools already do. As a result, they're incentivized to pile on STEMM programs, cut back other programs, and increase class sizes to reduce per-student costs. There's no comparison to peers outside the state. It's created a system of mostly very large schools that copy each other.

In North Carolina, the schools are funded according to their niches. They look outside the state for their comparisons rather than making all the schools duplicate what UNC Chapel Hill already excels at. They're probably too top heavy with the flagship, but at least the funding isn't arbitrary.

Fortunately, it sounds like Florida's Board of Governors is finally starting to listen and plans on getting rid of the condition that the bottom 3 schools get no extra funding, and will also award points for how schools measure up to out-of-state peers. That's something that'll lead to some innovation, as they'll have a reason to look at more successful university systems, without fear of punishment for not adopting the "get real big and have every degree" model.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 02:51:49 PM by Tacachale »
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FlaBoy

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2017, 02:48:56 PM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

The way money is done is not efficient but it has led to some interesting innovations and healthy competition as well by schools that has helped elevate them such as USF and UCF. In all honesty, if the system were run like the UNC System, UNF would still get no money because it would be focusing strictly on undergraduate education, which it basically does now. UNC and NC State take most of the money and the other schools fight to find a niche that is usually provided to them by their Board of Regents.

Not really accurate. For one thing, state funding has been cut year after year in Florida, which just puts more burden on the students, or results in cuts at the schools. UNF is one of the few that hasn't had to cut programs or staff, but our tuition has had to go up substantially as it has at every school.

Then there's the funding tied to the "performance-based" metrics, which are arbitrary and pretty inscrutable, and detrimental to the system. No innovation has come from the "healthy competition" as you put it, as there's no credit for doing anything differently than what's dictated by the metrics. As a result, the competition that does arise is in the schools doing whatever the more successful schools already do. As a result, they're incentivized to pile on STEMM programs, cut back other programs, and increase class sizes to reduce classes. There's no comparison to peers outside the state. It's created a system of mostly very large schools that copy each other.

In North Carolina, the schools are funded according to their niches. They look outside the state for their comparisons rather than making all the schools duplicate what UNC Chapel Hill already excels at. They're probably too top heavy with the flagship, but at least the funding isn't arbitrary.

Fortunately, it sounds like Florida's Board of Governors is finally starting to listen and plans on getting rid of the condition that the bottom 3 schools get no extra funding, and will also award points for how schools measure up to out-of-state peers. That's something that'll lead to some innovation, as they'll have a reason to look at more successful university systems, without fear of punishment for not adopting the "get real big and have every degree" model.

As the state's population continues to grow, schools like UNF, FGCU, and UWF may have to grow their student populations since UF, FSU, UCF (I think lol), USF, and FIU are at capacity in any reasonable model. Growing the population at UNF would be good for Jacksonville if it could keep similar standards. We will see in the near future.

I do agree though that the funding system is certainly inefficient and politics based.

Tacachale

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2017, 02:58:29 PM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

The way money is done is not efficient but it has led to some interesting innovations and healthy competition as well by schools that has helped elevate them such as USF and UCF. In all honesty, if the system were run like the UNC System, UNF would still get no money because it would be focusing strictly on undergraduate education, which it basically does now. UNC and NC State take most of the money and the other schools fight to find a niche that is usually provided to them by their Board of Regents.

Not really accurate. For one thing, state funding has been cut year after year in Florida, which just puts more burden on the students, or results in cuts at the schools. UNF is one of the few that hasn't had to cut programs or staff, but our tuition has had to go up substantially as it has at every school.

Then there's the funding tied to the "performance-based" metrics, which are arbitrary and pretty inscrutable, and detrimental to the system. No innovation has come from the "healthy competition" as you put it, as there's no credit for doing anything differently than what's dictated by the metrics. As a result, the competition that does arise is in the schools doing whatever the more successful schools already do. As a result, they're incentivized to pile on STEMM programs, cut back other programs, and increase class sizes to reduce classes. There's no comparison to peers outside the state. It's created a system of mostly very large schools that copy each other.

In North Carolina, the schools are funded according to their niches. They look outside the state for their comparisons rather than making all the schools duplicate what UNC Chapel Hill already excels at. They're probably too top heavy with the flagship, but at least the funding isn't arbitrary.

Fortunately, it sounds like Florida's Board of Governors is finally starting to listen and plans on getting rid of the condition that the bottom 3 schools get no extra funding, and will also award points for how schools measure up to out-of-state peers. That's something that'll lead to some innovation, as they'll have a reason to look at more successful university systems, without fear of punishment for not adopting the "get real big and have every degree" model.

As the state's population continues to grow, schools like UNF, FGCU, and UWF may have to grow their student populations since UF, FSU, UCF (I think lol), USF, and FIU are at capacity in any reasonable model. Growing the population at UNF would be good for Jacksonville if it could keep similar standards. We will see in the near future.

I do agree though that the funding system is certainly inefficient and politics based.

UNF is planned to grow a bit but never reach the size UCF et al are at. If we were smart, we'd start planning additional universities to serve growth areas rather than just allowing all the schools to just balloon. Some of the schools have already founded branch campuses to reach more areas. My worry is that the system will just fragment into a "UF System", "USF System", etc. with even less coordination than there is now. That's what happened in Texas, where there's no coordination between the different university systems (University of Texas, A&M, North Texas, Texas State, and Texas Tech), and they're starting to fall behind their peers. There was a time that UT Austin was considered a "public ivy" but it's falling farther and farther behind as the state puts more resources into the other branches.
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FlaBoy

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2017, 05:36:14 PM »
Tachachale's point is correct. The system here sucks. The way the money is allocated is not efficient. UNF continually gets shafted and it is surprising that there isn't more outrage about it around Jax considering the benefits UNF provides to the city.

The way money is done is not efficient but it has led to some interesting innovations and healthy competition as well by schools that has helped elevate them such as USF and UCF. In all honesty, if the system were run like the UNC System, UNF would still get no money because it would be focusing strictly on undergraduate education, which it basically does now. UNC and NC State take most of the money and the other schools fight to find a niche that is usually provided to them by their Board of Regents.

Not really accurate. For one thing, state funding has been cut year after year in Florida, which just puts more burden on the students, or results in cuts at the schools. UNF is one of the few that hasn't had to cut programs or staff, but our tuition has had to go up substantially as it has at every school.

Then there's the funding tied to the "performance-based" metrics, which are arbitrary and pretty inscrutable, and detrimental to the system. No innovation has come from the "healthy competition" as you put it, as there's no credit for doing anything differently than what's dictated by the metrics. As a result, the competition that does arise is in the schools doing whatever the more successful schools already do. As a result, they're incentivized to pile on STEMM programs, cut back other programs, and increase class sizes to reduce classes. There's no comparison to peers outside the state. It's created a system of mostly very large schools that copy each other.

In North Carolina, the schools are funded according to their niches. They look outside the state for their comparisons rather than making all the schools duplicate what UNC Chapel Hill already excels at. They're probably too top heavy with the flagship, but at least the funding isn't arbitrary.

Fortunately, it sounds like Florida's Board of Governors is finally starting to listen and plans on getting rid of the condition that the bottom 3 schools get no extra funding, and will also award points for how schools measure up to out-of-state peers. That's something that'll lead to some innovation, as they'll have a reason to look at more successful university systems, without fear of punishment for not adopting the "get real big and have every degree" model.

As the state's population continues to grow, schools like UNF, FGCU, and UWF may have to grow their student populations since UF, FSU, UCF (I think lol), USF, and FIU are at capacity in any reasonable model. Growing the population at UNF would be good for Jacksonville if it could keep similar standards. We will see in the near future.

I do agree though that the funding system is certainly inefficient and politics based.

UNF is planned to grow a bit but never reach the size UCF et al are at. If we were smart, we'd start planning additional universities to serve growth areas rather than just allowing all the schools to just balloon. Some of the schools have already founded branch campuses to reach more areas. My worry is that the system will just fragment into a "UF System", "USF System", etc. with even less coordination than there is now. That's what happened in Texas, where there's no coordination between the different university systems (University of Texas, A&M, North Texas, Texas State, and Texas Tech), and they're starting to fall behind their peers. There was a time that UT Austin was considered a "public ivy" but it's falling farther and farther behind as the state puts more resources into the other branches.

Well, no school should ever have 60,000 undergrads lol. 30,000 is a solid and manageable number long term for UNF that will spur additional development that will be sustainable and really drive that area into the future.

goldy21

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Re: UF rated #9 Public University in Country by US News
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 07:22:30 PM »
I was just curious which universities were displaced by Berkeley. I-10 seems to imply that this ranking is some sort of liberal conspiracy.

Look at this 2015 ranking here below, UC Berkeley is number 3. Oh no, the military and naval academies are 1 and 2; Can't have that, these warmongering arch-conservative type institutions can't be on the list!! I'm not arguing that UC Berkeley is a high ranking public university (even though I don't care for it) just the timing of these Antifa uprisings, and UC Berkeley and UVA being ranked very highly at the top two, that's all.

https://www.forbes.com/pictures/gkhh45md/best-public-colleges-201/#7b5918ab3040

The US liberal establishment have alot of power, particularly in the legacy news media (even legacy sports media now), Hollywood, and academia. They even push wedge issue movies to won awards, no matter if the GP likes the movie or not; As long as someone is a victim of some situation, there is money to be made.

West Point, The Naval Academy, and the Air Force Academy are ranked #1, #2, and #3 in USNWR's top public liberal arts college rankings.  The reason they're not in the research university rankings is because it wouldn't be comparing apples to apples -- the service academies aren't typical research universities with extensive post-grad programs. 

But I bet it feels good to rant about liberal bias, so please continue to do so if it helps let off steam.