Author Topic: A Secret Under Oak Street  (Read 10938 times)

Metro Jacksonville

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
    • MetroJacksonville.com
A Secret Under Oak Street
« on: September 03, 2008, 05:00:00 AM »
A Secret Under Oak Street



The rain waters of Tropical Storm Fay reveal a little history under Oak Street.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/886

Jason

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4295
  • I am the man in the box...
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 08:47:57 AM »
I wish riverside had more of the old brick roads.  Kinda rough on your car but they do slow people down.

How old is that streetcar line Ock?

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 09:24:46 AM »
It dates to the development of Ortega, until that time, the Jacksonville Electric Company ended at a picnic ground in the edge of a large swamp. Today we call that spot 5-Points!

The track extended by THE ORTEGA TRACTION COMPANY, ran from May Street in 5-Points, to Oak to King - St Johns - Aberdeen - Herschel - Grand - Baltic and a terminal at Ortega Village. The company bought a couple of small interurban cars, beautiful wood with arched windows, the upper portion being stained glass.
Seats were probably velvet. I haven't found the order ford the cars but suspect they were JEWITT PRODUCTS.

When WWI caused Camp Joseph Johnston to bloom into a full base at YUKON, the car line was extended by the DUVAL TRACTION COMPANY to todays Roosevelt, hence near the railroad all the way to YUKON I believe the line entered the North (truck gate today) and ran right in front (North) of all the new hangers all the way back to the river at Black Point. .25 cents got one a non-stop ride from the camp to Bay Street, over the tracks of all three electric railroads. Duval Traction and Ortega Traction soldiered on until they were merged into Jacksonville Traction, founded in 1912, it was a new name for the former Jacksonville Electric. By the mid 1920's it was all JTCO.

After the war, service was severely cut back and the camp became Camp Foster, of the Florida National Guard. The base extension was abandoned early sometime in the 1920's.


OCKLAWAHA

TD*

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 12:32:35 PM »
That is pretty cool

deathstar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 10:53:07 PM »
I can has time machine? Plzkthxbai
Seriously though, Jacksonville today seems boring compared to back in the day!

I-10east

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5436
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 12:31:30 PM »
Hey, Atleast we have the "Riverside Trolley"...errr...bus, that NEVER comes ev'ry ten minutes :( :-[ ::)

happical

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • happical
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2008, 10:04:35 PM »
There are "secret" brick roads all over the Riverside/Avondale area- they've just been covered by asphalt!!!
wtf jacksonville?!



This picture was taken right off of Riverside Avenue, but I see this all the time in the area!

RiversideGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4476
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2008, 01:04:35 AM »
While brick streets look much nicer, they are not exactly state of the art driving surfaces.  They tend to become warped faster than asphalt and they are by nature more bumpy.  I am all for preservation but I dont know if I would support all brick streets in Riverside/Avondale.  There is a reason why asphalt has supplanted brick for street construction.

happical

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • happical
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2008, 11:14:30 AM »
While brick streets look much nicer, they are not exactly state of the art driving surfaces.  They tend to become warped faster than asphalt and they are by nature more bumpy.  I am all for preservation but I dont know if I would support all brick streets in Riverside/Avondale.  There is a reason why asphalt has supplanted brick for street construction.


riverside gator- It is very possible to preserve brick streets and maintain them so that they aren't "bumpy".   Many other cities have done this successfully- such as the historic downtown regions of Savannah, Georgia, St Augustine, as well as Fernandina Beach. Some of the brick roads in Jacksonville date back to as early as 1893! These brick streets not only add to the aesthetic value, but they also add to property values in the area. I'm not saying that Riverside's streets should all be torn up and re-bricked, I'm saying its a shame that when there was the opportunity to preserve the bricks streets, Jacksonville failed to do it and now its too late...



French Lick, Indiana

Princeton, Illinois

Savannah, Georgia

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2008, 12:52:16 PM »
In The above photos: French Lick is using modern pavers on a hard road OR impressed - colored asphalt or concrete
Princeton and Savannah are using the old brick on sand models.


True, the old streets were laid on a bed of limestone, leveled, and then a course of sand was laid down, the bricks were tamped nto the sand. There was no morter or binder. When heavy rains brought running water down the sides, the sand tended to wash away leaving very rough surfaces. Jacksonville had 3 types of brick street that I have been able to chase down.

The first example, brick on sand, on sub-roadbed of limestone.

Second, concrete curbed, brick set in cement morter. (an example still survives in the park at YUKON across from NAS Jax, and is a trail. (bring bug spray!)

Third, we had a combination of the above, with a blue glazed "Tile-Brick" these were used on some of the downtown connector streets such as Laura, and Broad. The bricks were colorful, but the glaze tended to smear or wipe off. The early streetcar motormen and drivers cursed them in the rain, as going toward the river in the rain, ment NO BRAKES! You still see them on occasion.

Today, we have colored asphalt that is impressed to look just like brick. We also have all manner of paving brick and stones, that can be laid on the hard surfaces.

For Streetcar, I'm a HUGE fan of a removable paver. It's not done much anymore, mostly because we have forgotten how to build Light Rail. With a 50,000 pound vehicle depressing that sub-roadbed over and over the pumping action will knock the tracks out of alignment. Shall we then (say every 15 years) dig up the whole street or just remove pavers where a rail or joint has sagged?

Pavers also make for FANTASTIC passive transit lanes, as a driver you get two choices, you CAN drive with the streetcars or trolley buses on the pavers A n D  s H a K e  Y o U r  S e L f  S i L l Y, or just shift to the concrete or asphalt lane and move on. No lane restrictions are needed for BRT or LRT simply a passive way that says, your welcome here, but you'll have to play by our rules. You improve beauty, traffic moves aside, transit flows, and the result is less automobiles in the dense areas. For trolley buses, you simply add smooth asphalt runways in the brick. Autos are not wide enough to get a tire on each runway, so the effect stays the same, while the trolley bus passengers get a silk smooth ride.


OCKLAWAHA

« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 12:06:56 AM by Ocklawaha »

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 01:03:09 PM »


Just in case you missed them. Oh yeah, NEVER try and run across this in the rain either!

SPLAT!


OCKLAWAHA
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 12:06:09 AM by Ocklawaha »

RiversideGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4476
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2008, 02:01:19 PM »
While brick streets look much nicer, they are not exactly state of the art driving surfaces.  They tend to become warped faster than asphalt and they are by nature more bumpy.  I am all for preservation but I dont know if I would support all brick streets in Riverside/Avondale.  There is a reason why asphalt has supplanted brick for street construction.


riverside gator- It is very possible to preserve brick streets and maintain them so that they aren't "bumpy".   Many other cities have done this successfully- such as the historic downtown regions of Savannah, Georgia, St Augustine, as well as Fernandina Beach. Some of the brick roads in Jacksonville date back to as early as 1893! These brick streets not only add to the aesthetic value, but they also add to property values in the area. I'm not saying that Riverside's streets should all be torn up and re-bricked, I'm saying its a shame that when there was the opportunity to preserve the bricks streets, Jacksonville failed to do it and now its too late...



French Lick, Indiana

Princeton, Illinois

Savannah, Georgia


I disagree that brick streets can be made as smooth as asphalt.  This is simply not possible because of the seams in the brick streets and the fact that erosion causes the streets to buckle pretty rapidly.  Also, as Ock pointed out, the first example you give is not an historic brick street and the 2nd and 3rd examples you cite are historic but are uneven and have dips thereby proving my point.  So, while I am all for historic preservation and even preserving brick streets in some areas, brick streets are simply inferior surfaces for driving.

civil42806

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2008, 08:18:47 PM »
While brick streets look much nicer, they are not exactly state of the art driving surfaces.  They tend to become warped faster than asphalt and they are by nature more bumpy.  I am all for preservation but I dont know if I would support all brick streets in Riverside/Avondale.  There is a reason why asphalt has supplanted brick for street construction.


riverside gator- It is very possible to preserve brick streets and maintain them so that they aren't "bumpy".   Many other cities have done this successfully- such as the historic downtown regions of Savannah, Georgia, St Augustine, as well as Fernandina Beach. Some of the brick roads in Jacksonville date back to as early as 1893! These brick streets not only add to the aesthetic value, but they also add to property values in the area. I'm not saying that Riverside's streets should all be torn up and re-bricked, I'm saying its a shame that when there was the opportunity to preserve the bricks streets, Jacksonville failed to do it and now its too late...



French Lick, Indiana

Princeton, Illinois

Savannah, Georgia


I disagree that brick streets can be made as smooth as asphalt.  This is simply not possible because of the seams in the brick streets and the fact that erosion causes the streets to buckle pretty rapidly.  Also, as Ock pointed out, the first example you give is not an historic brick street and the 2nd and 3rd examples you cite are historic but are uneven and have dips thereby proving my point.  So, while I am all for historic preservation and even preserving brick streets in some areas, brick streets are simply inferior surfaces for driving.

No way a brick street can be as smooth as asphalt.  If you've driven the side streets in Savannah that are made of brick you'll figure out that quick.

Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2008, 12:23:28 AM »
I wouldn't even say bricks are inferior as pavers, it's simply more labor intensive and while it's a real improvement in atmosphere, let's save the real brick pavers for the REAL streetcar tracks. Just think "Aberdeen done smoothly and removable". The stuff on Aberdeen suffers from being on sand, AND having rotting 1917 vintage crossties underneath. As the ties rot the road will corduroy A NON-BRICK example of this is found on the North End of Oak near the Publix in Riverside. (Great way to find long extinct streetcar lines)
In snow country, the area where the ties are will melt first due to organic heat in the wood ties, and the old track becomes visible through the melt, even though it is long buried or covered.

Our new streetcar will probably be laid with flat steel ties, or concrete bucket piers with private track getting traditional concrete or wood cross ties. The cost of wood makes Concrete just as cheap and it lasts longer.

As I have said, I FAVOR BRICK:

Brick trim
Brick Crosswalks
Brick Track - Streetcar - Trolley Bus lanes

Brick in ALL CASES set with modern standards. We certainly don't want any more Aberdeen examples as main roads in Jacksonville. But then keep in mind, many theme parks and downtowns use the modern set and have no trouble at all with smoothness.

As the the old Mortered road in Yukon - It was called the "Old Orange Park Road" when I was a child, I've only driven on a small part and that nearly 50 years ago or so. I don't remember it being bumpy, and I always loved roads (go figure - anything transportation) so I think I would recall. A recent trip by myself and The Lakelander to the same road, found it in remarkable condition as a trail. I strongly recommend going into the park across from NAS Jax, and following the road almost to the end, until you see the little "OLD BRICK ROAD SIGN" get out (SWAT) and try (SWAT - SWAT) and (SWAT) get a (SWAT) photo. (before these swamp critters fly away with all your blood). If you take a bath in BLACK FLAG you might even take a few steps down the historic lane.


OCKLAWAHA


Ocklawaha

  • Phd. Ferroequinology
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10438
  • Monster of Mobility! Ocklawaha is Robert Mann
    • LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE
Re: A Secret Under Oak Street
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2008, 12:50:01 AM »

Flexible brick pavement - and it might not have ANY concrete under it.


Mortarless Brick Pavement - The style that could be used in modern streetcar construction with rails bolted to the Concrete roadbed and supported by bucket piers (bucket track). Smooth road with just enough roar to cause you to move into the other lane if available.



Modern Interlocking-Brick Pavers


No bricks here, just asphalt or concrete - colored and impressed (pretty slick eh?)


OCKLAWAHA