Author Topic: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field  (Read 31679 times)

jax_hwy_engineer

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Take the damn ramp, the section that's not needed near the stadium area and complex down and take it down yesterday. I never looked at this ramp as a barrier, etc., but this seems to be a well thought out plan and justification for removing most or all of that ramp. I used to love riding down that ramp and seeing the tall buildings in the skyline of Jacksonville, however, new developments, construction, etc., mandates and justifies the need to remove the ramps (parts of it) in which it is imperative that they (or it) be removed in order to make way for essential and much needed development and prosperity for the stadium district and downtown.

Not up to me, nor my firm, but COJ, who have made their decision based on the prohibitively expensive matter of removing those flyover ramps. Removing the existing viaduct to open up that corridor to more traffic ingress and egress is the main priority of this project. Leaving the existing ramps in place can help in this aspect, even though they'll likely be removed in the long run.


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I agree. You must integrate and balance the "use" of cars and pedestrians equally in the urban core and downtown. You can't emphasize one and not the other.
Please see my response to the question about pedestrians crossing Bay Street near Intuition. There is already a proposed crosswalk right there next to the Intuition parking lot, it's just hard to see. Pedestrian considerations are present in this project.


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I don't understand.  In the drawings, the full of Gator Bowl Blvd., from west of APRandolph to where the new ramps come down, is shown with grass or raised concrete medians.  The existing GB Blvd. / Bay Street only has a painted median, or just a center-line - no physical median anywhere.
The reversible portion of Bay Street is 4 lanes. All you gotta do is stop the lane reversals before you get to the split at Intuition, and then you have 2 lanes each direction, which matches the configuration of lanes at the EB/WB split.

Charles Hunter

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The lane control lights and the Begin/End Reversible Lanes signs seem to indicate that the reversible lanes currently continue east of APR.  Am I correct?

Steve

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Looking at it closely again, we've designed a pedestrian crossing point right there at Intuition's main parking lot. You can see the little splotch of blue peeking out from under the bridge, so it'll actually be an improvement over what's out there today since you'll have a pedestrian refuge area between the westbound and eastbound lanes. Looks like the problem wasn't ever even a problem, and is actually an improvement.    ;D

I don't know if I'd call this an "improvement", but I get that you're constrained by having to do this in the first place. Personally, I think we can stand to just dump the entire elevated ramps, but I get the expense of doing that.

I'd love to see this one the signalization is complete.

thelakelander

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The lane control lights and the Begin/End Reversible Lanes signs seem to indicate that the reversible lanes currently continue east of APR.  Am I correct?

The reversible lanes do currently run east of APR. In the concept, they must start at APR and continue west, although you'd have quite the bottleneck situation exiting westbound at APR to access Bay Street. If a traffic study hasn't already been done, it would be good to do one before getting this far down the road.

As for the concept itself, it certainly is no Embarcadero. It appears to be a pretty standard street designed to existing design criteria. It would be good to overlay the Jag's plans for this area with this exact same roadway plan. If so, I think we'll see that the sidewalks should be wider on both sides of the street, transit lanes should be accommodated, and there should be more areas for pedestrians to cross in between APR and the Hart Bridge. If not, then fencing or heavy landscaping will be needed to channel people from jaywalking all over that corridor.

But maybe it's me for thinking razing the bridge would automatically mean getting a more comprehensive context sensitive street based on the stuff the Jags keep offering up in their renderings.

Embarcadero:




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Looking at it closely again, we've designed a pedestrian crossing point right there at Intuition's main parking lot. You can see the little splotch of blue peeking out from under the bridge, so it'll actually be an improvement over what's out there today since you'll have a pedestrian refuge area between the westbound and eastbound lanes. Looks like the problem wasn't ever even a problem, and is actually an improvement.    ;D

I don't know if I'd call this an "improvement", but I get that you're constrained by having to do this in the first place. Personally, I think we can stand to just dump the entire elevated ramps, but I get the expense of doing that.

I'd love to see this one the signalization is complete.
I think why they are leaving portions of this ramp intact is because the sections that will come down to ground level is where immediate development and construction around the stadium and the proposed hotel/convention center will be and is needed immediately to support those plans. The other sections that will still be elevated are areas where no immediate or significant development is planned immediately or in the not too far away and foreseeable future.
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downtownbrown

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...and it's a helluva lot cheaper, apparently

Charles Hunter

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State Road 228 (SR 228) crosses the Hart Bridge and connects to the Forsyth/Adams one-way pair via the elevated ramps. So, it seems logical that SR 228 will come to ground and follow Bay Street (or is it Gator Bowl Boulevard) until it reaches the remnant ramps at APR.   This means it would need to follow the FDOT Design Manual.  Under the new Context Based Design, if the posted speed is 35 MPH, travel lanes can be as narrow as 10', but due to transit and trucks, 11' might be OK.  For new construction (or, I would argue, full reconstruction), the standard is 7-foot buffered bike lanes, on both sides.  Sidewalks should be on both sides, and at least six feet in width.

tufsu1

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I sure am super excited about this project. It will definitely improve freight movements to/from Talleyrand. The City was smart to suggest such a benefit to the Feds. Too bad they couldn't envision it ;)

thelakelander

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State Road 228 (SR 228) crosses the Hart Bridge and connects to the Forsyth/Adams one-way pair via the elevated ramps. So, it seems logical that SR 228 will come to ground and follow Bay Street (or is it Gator Bowl Boulevard) until it reaches the remnant ramps at APR.   This means it would need to follow the FDOT Design Manual.  Under the new Context Based Design, if the posted speed is 35 MPH, travel lanes can be as narrow as 10', but due to transit and trucks, 11' might be OK.  For new construction (or, I would argue, full reconstruction), the standard is 7-foot buffered bike lanes, on both sides.  Sidewalks should be on both sides, and at least six feet in width.

Given freight and transit, it would not be wise to make the lanes less than 11' in width. However, I find the FDM pretty weak on bicycle and shared use path facilities in Context Classifications that are C4 and above. It actually kicks the bucket down the street and contradicts itself in a few spots. Given the assumed truck traffic, this strip would be better off with a cycle track but the FDM punts separated bike facilities to the FHWA. With that said, those proposed bicycle lanes should be at least 7 feet in width if SR 228 sticks around.

The corridor is probably considered C3 Suburban today, given it's lined with surface parking lots. However, what Khan is proposing would change this strip into a C5 Urban Center or C6 Urban Core around the same time the street is rebuilt. If that's the case, the proposed sidewalks on both sides of the street should be 10 to 12' in width as opposed to C3 Suburban's standard 6'.
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Charles Hunter

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Good point about needing to look at the proposed context.  And, since it is currently a local street, I am pretty sure FDOT did not classify it.  Yes, the truck use should mean 11' lanes, although, I suspect FDOT will push for 12 feet.

thelakelander

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12 foot lanes should still be fine if they include pedestrian refuges in the median and wider sidewalks set back from the curb.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field
« Reply #221 on: September 06, 2018, 06:21:29 PM »
Recent article from the TU. Based on a study from FDOT, which sounds like part of the application for the freight grant for "improving access to Talleyrand" ports. Says it will improve downtown traffic.
 http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180826/downtown-thumbs-hart-bridge-changes-would-improve-downtown-traffic

tufsu1

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Re: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field
« Reply #222 on: September 08, 2018, 11:32:50 AM »
^ The hype machine is strong

Charles Hunter

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Re: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field
« Reply #223 on: September 08, 2018, 12:10:30 PM »
Councilman Scott Wilson is holding a Town Meeting about the Hart Ramp Removal, on Monday, September 10 at 6:00 PM at the Elks Lodge at 1855 West Road.  John Pappas of Public Works, Jim Knight of FDOT, and Brian Hughes Mayor Curry's Chief of Staff are scheduled.

thelakelander

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Re: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field
« Reply #224 on: September 08, 2018, 06:25:36 PM »
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Called the "Talleyrand Connector," the changes will produce many benefits:

• Providing new freight access to the Talleyrand port district. Yes, there still are shipping activities near Downtown. This would eliminate freight bottleneck and thus would support more port development in Talleyrand.

What freight bottleneck? There's already ramps right off Talleyrand at East Duval Street. How exactly is freight access improved to Talleyrand?

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• Relieving congestion along multiple points along the Hart Expressway, which is the preferred route for trucks traveling northbound on Interstate 95 to the Talleyrand district. Currently, the Hart ramps send done lane to Liberty Street and the other to the east. The new connector would add one lane to the west and two lanes to the east, improving capacity by 17 percent to the west and 67 percent to the east.

How much freight traffic is actually going west to Liberty Street? From observation over the years, most freight traffic continues north. Viaduct or not, that's likely not going to change, considering the location of the proposed ramp down to Gator Bowl Blvd.

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• Improving safety. The Hart Expressway on-ramp coming from Liberty Street, merging with the on-ramp from Duval Street has three times the crash rate as similar facilities.

Seriously? Crash rate aside, what's the actual number of crashes at these ramps? Also, I thought these ramps were staying open in the latest concept because that section of the viaduct was too expensive to tear down?

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• Improved connectivity to Downtown. The plan is to remove the elevated ramp between A. Philip Randolph Boulevard and Festival Park Avenue.

Removing the elevated ramp would open up access to the stadium district. Connectivity to Downtown would be a bit worse, considering right now there's a free flow option to access downtown.

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Bay Street would be widened from four lanes to six lanes with turn lanes to TIAA Bank Field. A. Philip Randolph Boulevard would be extended to the St. Johns River.

What plan extends A. Philip Randolph Boulevard to the river? What would be the point of that? Bay would only be widened between TIAA Bank Field and A. Philip Randolph. There's a chance A. Philip Randolph Blvd would become a choke point since the lane configuration would remain the same west of the intersection.

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There would be a new signalized intersection at Bay Street and Gator Bowl Boulevard with a ramp down to Talleyrand Avenue designed to accommodate large trucks.

Ramp down to Talleyrand Avenue? Is this a replacement for the existing ramp to Duval Street or does the Duval Street ramp stay?

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There would be a new bridge over Festival Park Avenue to the Bay Street-Gator Bowl intersections.

There would be a new loop ramp over A. Philip Randolph Boulevard to Bay Street with improved signals.

Perhaps most importantly, a new computerized transportation system would improve traffic flow and safety.

All this sounds like a stretch in making an argument for spending $48 million to demolish a structurally sound viaduct.

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The Talleyrand port is more important than many realize: It includes terminals for Crowley Maritime, which handles one-third of Northeast Florida's exports to Puerto Rico.

Jacksonville is one of the nation's busiest ports for vehicle handling. A large part of the 636,000 vehicles moved from the port in 2016 came through the Talleyrand port, home of Southeast Toyota.

North Florida Shipyards, located under the Hart Bridge, specializes in military repairs.

The Hart Bridge is a direct connection for major businesses such as Maxwell House, U.S. Gypsum and Cypress Trucking.

Some of these benefits sound like a real stretch. I understand the desire to development the Shipyards but seriously??  Isn't Crowley Maritime closing their Talleyrand Terminal? Maxwell House has operated in the same location for over a century. Does the majority of their freight traffic utilize the Hart Bridge, as opposed to other corridors in the area? On the other hand, assuming there's an event at the stadium during the week, what impact does that have on downtown traffic coming from and heading to the Hart Bridge? It's hard to believe that's an improved condition. With that said, I'm a fan of removing the ramps from an economic development standpoint.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 06:38:53 PM by thelakelander »
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